All yours.I'll take Age of Ultron over Last Jedi any day of the week.
AoU is fine, but ultimately doesn't do much to break new ground or try anything interesting. It's got great banter between Tony and Cap and the intro of the Vision is cool AF...I'll take Age of Ultron over Last Jedi any day of the week.
You lose me by saying saying it'd take 4 movies to resolve E8....E8 ended pretty much everything that started in E7 which, when you're part 2 of 3, you just can't do. The ONLY thing left at the end of TLJ, really, was '....how do the good guys win in the end?' Maybe it should have gotten darker with showing the FO taking control and re-empiring things in certain areas, but, there wasn't really anything left after that.A couple observations, several of which I've made in the past.
1. Solo is actually a good movie hampered by dogspit production issues. Kennedy is 100% to blame for this one for picking a couple of guys who WERE NOT up to the job, and then letting things get to like 70% completion and having to start over. Solo was a popular film that actually made good box office, hampered by 2x the production expenses, basically. If they'd only made a single pass, Solo would be regarded as a financial success. Personally, I love the film and I'm as surprised as anyone else to be saying that. I did NOT want a prequel, I did NOT want to know more about Han Solo's youth....and yet I loved it.
2. Ep. 8 is a fantastic film...but is also waaaaay wrong for what ended up being the trilogy we got. It's wildly out of place between two JJ bookends. I maintain that the real problems people have with Ep. 8 are entirely down to JJ having created a stupid setup, and Rian Johnson basically just took that setup seriously and didn't do BS fan service, and instead did an adult, introspective film....which is wildly out of place for the trilogy. It's such a tonal, stylistic shift that it is fundamentally discordant. On its own, or as part of a different trilogy where all 3 films are way more like Ep. 8, it'd be regarded as a fantastic film that treats its characters seriously. As the meat in a JJ sandwich, it's awful. Although I maintain that's due to the buns, not the meat. JJ would've been fine making a single, long, epic roller-coaster ride. Hollow, cotton-candy filmmaking that's visually impressive, super sweet, and ultimately devoid of substance. You can't do cotton candy wrapped around, like, osso buco. It doesn't work. It didn't work.
3. I actually hate Age of Ultron overall, but for different reasons. Age of Ultron is a lousy film, but one that is stylistically and tonally in line with what came before, because of the outsized influence the original Avengers film had (which is a terrific film). Age of Ultron is way too busy for its own good, and feels really...I dunno...forced? Rushed? I walked out of the theater after seeing it and it just felt off to me. Always has. I think it tries to do way too much with its runtime, and ends up failing to accomplish its goals. It also introduced new stuff that didn't "fit" and for which no groundwork had been laid (e.g., Hulk and Widow? WTF?!). By contrast, Ep. 8 actually "yes, ands" Ep. 7, just in a way that takes what Ep. 7 did seriously and says "Ok, but what would it actually mean for these characters if those things had all happened and we treated them like real people, and not like celluloid heroes?" I think the other part of the problem is...people didn't want that. They wanted big celluloid heroes doing big celluloid heroics, and Ep. 8 really didn't give 'em that. It also messed with the structure and rhythm of Star Wars films as defined by the first 2 trilogies (really, the OT -- the PT is...kind of a mess, actually). If Ep. 8 had been truly followed to fruition, it would've taken something like 4+ more films to resolve that story fully. I was all on board for that, but I think too many fans wanted...well, something else, although I think they tend to be incapable of really articulating what they truly want, or what they want is "The same, but different. Like it was, but also new."
I do think that Iger and Kennedy know how to make money, but not movies. At least, not without really strong creative partners with real vision, and JJ either didn't have that or didn't have it for this trilogy. I loathe his "mystery box" BS. I think it's a huge problem in the ST. But the buck stops with Iger and Kennedy for picking him, picking the Solo director team that got fired, picking a strategy that emphasized placating investors over telling effective stories.
Oh, I disagree here. There are a bunch of things left unfinished, and barely started.You lose me by saying saying it'd take 4 movies to resolve E8....E8 ended pretty much everything that started in E7 which, when you're part 2 of 3, you just can't do. The ONLY thing left at the end of TLJ, really, was '....how do the good guys win in the end?' Maybe it should have gotten darker with showing the FO taking control and re-empiring things in certain areas, but, there wasn't really anything left after that.
So, 2 things.You are probably right that it would be looked back on much better if 1 and 3 were in the same vein, but as you noted, doing that is what makes it not work as pt 2 of a 3 part series. But as we've all discussed ad nauseum in the past, it's also what happens when you go in without a plan and just let each guy do what you want. In the end, JJ looked at the end of ROTJ and said, screw that. RJ looked at the end of TFA and said, screw that, and JJ looked back at the end of the TLJ and said screw that. Each step just sets you up for a bigger and bigger fall.
I absolutely agree on needing central guidance. Kennedy's guidance has been "how to make money." Rather than "How to tell stories and build a universe." I think she's great at making money overall (Solo notwithstanding), but she needs an idea person around to guide things. I gather this is Dave Filoni's role these days, although there's some internal struggle maybe as to who's really in charge.People have varying opinions of Kevin Feige, i'm sure, but, it's what they need with SW and I don't think they have it yet. Some one or some group that's head of story that everything has to funnel through to make sure it fits within the whole. People doing WTH they want is just a recipe for disaster. And to rope solo into that, I think that was a case of KK doing WTH she wanted to do. This was back after the purchase when they were targeting different genre's. Rouge One as going to be a gritty war film and Solo a comedy that would float in and around the established films. Then they got near completion and simply chickened out and everything has to a standard 'star wars movie'. When you bail at the last second, it's never going to go well, though i guess Rouge One is the exception to that. I'll agree I like solo, but they flat set it up to fail. Cast a guy no one really believes is Han as Han and then undercut it by shooting it twice with all the drama being public, then overhyping TLJ after the fact for it's video release in April and ignoring Solo until essentially the first of May. Then the push the studio put behind it was anemic and they were dumbfounded it didn't make a billion dollars. It's not very complicated to see why.
2. Ben has taken over the First Order, but clearly is internally conflicted. Plus, the FO has its own internal divisions with Hux wanting more, and that whole "fascism eats itself" thing. I could've easily seen a 3rd episode have Ben cast down and the FO taken over completely by Hux and/or the Knights ofNiRen, then undergoing a "Face-turn" (as opposed to a "Heel-turn") in a less abrupt fashion.
3. The New Rebellion has been all but wiped out. It'll take time to rebuild it, if you want to play with that more seriously. You could actually showcase the New Rebellion as a true, scrappy, undercover operation slowly building its strength as the FO takes over the galaxy but holds it with a brittle grip.
What JJ did in TROS, however, was cram a bunch of that stuff into a single movie, wrap it up, and tie it with a bow. Like, TROS ticks most of the boxes above, but it doesn't let any of them breathe or develop naturally. They happen because now is the time when these kinds of things happen in Star Wars trilogies, and for no other reason. It's a trilogy! It has to end with happily ever after! (er...until we blow it up in the next trilogy...)
To be fair, the original trilogy suffers from this same sort of thing with ROTJ. Luke is now way more powerful than he was at the end of ESB, with no real explanation. The Rebellion, which had its asses kicked at Hoth, has somehow amassed a big fleet of capital ships. "Somehow, the Death Star returned..." I could go on, but you get the idea. It just wraps everything up very tidily but without actually allowing things to grow naturally. Why? Because George was tired, depressed, and done with the series (for the time being), and he didn't want to hand it over to anyone else to mess with. But you could've taken ESB and run with it for another 4+ films telling a story that unspools more gradually, allows for more natural character growth, and offers more time to allow for things like a second Death Star being built and such.
This gets highlighted even more with the PT, when you see Death Star I being worked on, like, 2 weeks after the fall of the Republic and Luke's birth, and it will then take, like, 20 years to build the first one. But we're supposed to believe the 2nd one was built in...what...3 years? Really? It's just rushed. Much like TROS.
Plenty of fans have thrown out alternate reasons for Luke to go into hiding, but most of them are pretty thin and don't really make sense except as a means of preserving the fan's idea of who Luke is. And the thing is, it's ultimately JJ who set all of this in motion. JJ's the one who put Luke on Planet Island. JJ's the one who split up Han and Leia. JJ's the one who had their son turn evil. JJ's the one who introduced Supreme Leader Snoke, a.k.a. Emperor II: Electric Boogaloo. JJ's the one who introduced the "Ooooh, who are Rey's parents?! What's the big mysteryyyyy?!?!?!!1!?" thing, which, in turn, fans ran with by speculating endlessly that she was a Kenobiwalkerpatine.
Killing him off doesn't "throw away" anything that Abrams was doing, unless what Abrams was doing was just making a creepier CGI version of The Emperor to play exactly the same role. But that's the thing. I don't think JJ was even really doing that. I think he just dug the imagery and the rest he didn't think too hard about. That would be someone else's problem.
That said, I liked Alden Ehrenreich as Han a hell of a lot more than I expected to. But I do agree that when I saw the casting, my response was pretty tepid and it hurt my interest in the film.
- Makes it clear that Spooky Emperor Brokenskull isn't really a character and doesn't actually matter, nor do the "mysteries" around him (which, really, are just things the audience doesn't know, rather than things the characters don't know that matter). Like "Where did Snoke come from?" doesn't matter to the characters. What matters to them is "How do we defeat him and the threat he poses?" Plus, I vaguely recall that Leia hinted at knowing who he was and where he came from, but it doesn't really matter. Killing him off doesn't "throw away" anything that Abrams was doing, unless what Abrams was doing was just making a creepier CGI version of The Emperor to play exactly the same role. But that's the thing. I don't think JJ was even really doing that. I think he just dug the imagery and the rest he didn't think too hard about. That would be someone else's problem.
Oh, I disagree here. There are a bunch of things left unfinished, and barely started.
1. Rey has to grow in power AND reconstitute the Jedi in whatever new image that'll take.
2. Ben has taken over the First Order, but clearly is internally conflicted. Plus, the FO has its own internal divisions with Hux wanting more, and that whole "fascism eats itself" thing. I could've easily seen a 3rd episode have Ben cast down and the FO taken over completely by Hux and/or the Knights ofNiRen, then undergoing a "Face-turn" (as opposed to a "Heel-turn") in a less abrupt fashion.
3. The New Rebellion has been all but wiped out. It'll take time to rebuild it, if you want to play with that more seriously. You could actually showcase the New Rebellion as a true, scrappy, undercover operation slowly building its strength as the FO takes over the galaxy but holds it with a brittle grip.
What JJ did in TROS, however, was cram a bunch of that stuff into a single movie, wrap it up, and tie it with a bow. Like, TROS ticks most of the boxes above, but it doesn't let any of them breathe or develop naturally. They happen because now is the time when these kinds of things happen in Star Wars trilogies, and for no other reason. It's a trilogy! It has to end with happily ever after! (er...until we blow it up in the next trilogy...)
To be fair, the original trilogy suffers from this same sort of thing with ROTJ. Luke is now way more powerful than he was at the end of ESB, with no real explanation. The Rebellion, which had its asses kicked at Hoth, has somehow amassed a big fleet of capital ships. "Somehow, the Death Star returned..." I could go on, but you get the idea. It just wraps everything up very tidily but without actually allowing things to grow naturally. Why? Because George was tired, depressed, and done with the series (for the time being), and he didn't want to hand it over to anyone else to mess with. But you could've taken ESB and run with it for another 4+ films telling a story that unspools more gradually, allows for more natural character growth, and offers more time to allow for things like a second Death Star being built and such.
This gets highlighted even more with the PT, when you see Death Star I being worked on, like, 2 weeks after the fall of the Republic and Luke's birth, and it will then take, like, 20 years to build the first one. But we're supposed to believe the 2nd one was built in...what...3 years? Really? It's just rushed. Much like TROS.
So, 2 things.
1. I absolutely agree that the "no plan" thing is ultimately at fault here. However...
2. There's this pervasive attitude that Rian Johnson "threw away" what JJ was doing. He didn't. He absolutely did the "yes, and..." thing. NOTHING he does invalidates anything JJ did in terms of actual plot points. What he does, however, is cut through the "mystery box" bull**** and focus instead on "What would these characters actually do if they were real people? What would drive them to act this way?"
Plenty of fans have thrown out alternate reasons for Luke to go into hiding, but most of them are pretty thin and don't really make sense except as a means of preserving the fan's idea of who Luke is. And the thing is, it's ultimately JJ who set all of this in motion. JJ's the one who put Luke on Planet Island. JJ's the one who split up Han and Leia. JJ's the one who had their son turn evil. JJ's the one who introduced Supreme Leader Snoke, a.k.a. Emperor II: Electric Boogaloo. JJ's the one who introduced the "Ooooh, who are Rey's parents?! What's the big mysteryyyyy?!?!?!!1!?" thing, which, in turn, fans ran with by speculating endlessly that she was a Kenobiwalkerpatine.
In order, TLJ does the following with these elements:
- Addresses the central event that would cause heroes like Luke, Leia, and Han to all go their separate ways: namely Luke's failure with Ben and Ben's turn to the Dark Side. That single shattered this family. There's more I could say about how this event also fits brilliantly into Ben's motivations and character, especially as juxtaposed against Rey, but that's a whole other discussion.
- Makes it clear that Spooky Emperor Brokenskull isn't really a character and doesn't actually matter, nor do the "mysteries" around him (which, really, are just things the audience doesn't know, rather than things the characters don't know that matter). Like "Where did Snoke come from?" doesn't matter to the characters. What matters to them is "How do we defeat him and the threat he poses?" Plus, I vaguely recall that Leia hinted at knowing who he was and where he came from, but it doesn't really matter. Killing him off doesn't "throw away" anything that Abrams was doing, unless what Abrams was doing was just making a creepier CGI version of The Emperor to play exactly the same role. But that's the thing. I don't think JJ was even really doing that. I think he just dug the imagery and the rest he didn't think too hard about. That would be someone else's problem.
- Honored the issue of Rey's parentage as it matters to Rey, rather than as it mattered to the audience. "Who are my parents" doesn't matter to Rey in the sense of "Where do my powers come from." Rey never seemed conflicted in TFA about that. She had power, she just accepted it, and she didn't know where it was from. She wasn't wondering where it came from. Everything else about her parentage was crap that JJ set up mystery-box style for the audience. None of it is intrinsic to the narrative or organic to the story. It's all external meta-textual BS and audience manipulation. TLJ says "Ok, let's take this seriously. Why would Rey care about her parents? Especially when she comes looking for Luke?" And the answer is "Because she's reluctant to embrace her destiny, or more importantly her responsibility to the rest of the Galaxy to use this power for good." That way, the question of Rey's parentage is dealt with such that it matters to her, rather than only mattering to the audience.
I absolutely agree on needing central guidance. Kennedy's guidance has been "how to make money." Rather than "How to tell stories and build a universe." I think she's great at making money overall (Solo notwithstanding), but she needs an idea person around to guide things. I gather this is Dave Filoni's role these days, although there's some internal struggle maybe as to who's really in charge.
That said, I liked Alden Ehrenreich as Han a hell of a lot more than I expected to. But I do agree that when I saw the casting, my response was pretty tepid and it hurt my interest in the film.
Yeah, when I walked out of TRoS, I said to my wife "That was great! I hated it!" And that truly summed up my thoughts on the film.You covered most of my thoughts. With hindsight it really feels like with TRoS the powers that be absolutely just panicked themselves into a supremely mediocre film after the excessively loud fan backlash from TLJ.
Instead of taking it as a challenge to validate and build upon the character work RJ did, they brought Abrams back to stick the flimsiest bandaid in world on and run as far away from TLJ as they could.
TRoS is fun enough, so long as you don't actually care about the story or the characters.
Stuff happens because this is the point when this thing happens. And half of it is referencing past films or relying on the audience's general knowledge of what's come before so they get the riff. And yeah, blah blah "They rhyme" blah. That line always struck me as a cop out and a way to excuse lazy writing.
Yup. And as an idea guy, Lucas is amazing. Mostly. He also has a ton of crap ideas that need to be either polished or discarded, which is why he produces his best results in collaboration with others. He's a savvy businessman, but as you say, not a director, not a great writer, either. And ST was, indeed, corporate filmmaking. It was collaborative but in the wrong direction (i.e., "Make money" rather than "tell a great story"). Or, to the extent that telling a great story was indeed the plan, the actual execution of that was hampered by the corporate mindset generally of those involved.I've come to think of Lucas as a lazy writer. He's an idea man , and an editor at heart. Not a director, not a writer (not in the past 30 years, anyway). It took MULTIPLE others to help flesh out the OT. The PT was all George, for better or worse. The ST was all corporate, which Lucas used to rail against.
It's pretty clear that neither the prequel or sequel trilogy captured the same magic of the OT. Any number of factors contribute to that, but the PT has seen a pretty hefty resuscitation in recent years and it won't surprise me if the ST does as well eventually. We're getting old, not every Star Wars is going to be aimed directly at the nostalgia buried in our chitin encrusted nerd hearts.Idk...I'd rather have the OT than anything after it, any day of the week.
If only Kirk had a roommate in school we would have had Star Trek - Meet the Robinsons -The Wrath of Khan when they pulled off the JJ Abrams "Let's do the Timewarp Again".....A lot of decent character stuff was cut out of the prequels in favor of needless effects and fights and action. Would have made them into Star Trek instead. Which is ironic seeing how new Star Trek movies are basically just Star Wars mixed with Wrath of Khan over and over again.
Filoni is almost singlehandedly responsible for me having any affection towards the prequel era, and it's entirely due to the Clone Wars cartoon, which ends up making Revenge of the Sith actually moving for me. Like, ROTS is a fantastic capstone for Clone Wars. As a PT by itself? Meh. It's the least bad of the three story-wise. Still appreciate George having a vision and artistic integrity even if I don't love what he made, but...I don't love what he made by itself.It's pretty clear that neither the prequel or sequel trilogy captured the same magic of the OT. Any number of factors contribute to that, but the PT has seen a pretty hefty resuscitation in recent years and it won't surprise me if the ST does as well eventually. We're getting old, not every Star Wars is going to be aimed directly at the nostalgia buried in our chitin encrusted nerd hearts.
I'm not too precious about George's writing vs anyone else's. He laid the groundwork and built this universe, but it's going to outlive him and as a fan I have been long resigned to the fact that at some point this franchise will have to break new ground if it's going to last. The D+ shows are a good example of throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. They all feel of a piece to me qualitatively (except Andor, which somehow feels like prestige TV of the Sopranos or Breaking Bad level), but clearly some are landing better than others. I think that the time Filoni spent working directly with George on clone wars has prepared him better than anyone else to oversee the arc of futures stories and I'm happy to have his continued work on the franchise. It killed me a little every time they'd wheel out Favreau to talk about Mando when all I really wanted was to hear from the guy who worked directly with George because in my view he's got the most "valid" input right now.
If the ST does see some kind of revitalization in the coming years it will undoubtedly be due to the work of Filoni or someone like him, lining up the story pieces as best they can to justify the lack of plan the ST had going in.