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  1. RPF Premium Member asalaw's Avatar
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    Jan 26, 2015, 11:52 AM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #26

    I asked, and they're still chewing on that one. But they're not going to paint in the cracks or anything like that. The saucer top is the only remaining original paint, and beyond hopefully stabilizing it, they don't want to touch it. It's a very old artifact and it's aging, and that's how those things look. Nobody ever suggests filling in the paint cracks on the Mona Lisa...
    Last edited by asalaw; Aug 7, 2015 at 5:47 PM.
  2. WinstonWolf359's Avatar
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    Jan 26, 2015, 12:28 PM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #27

    I can also say that to the naked eye, the crazing of the paint on the saucer top isn't really noticeable, it's really only that black light shot that shows it looking severe.

    Being able to get THAT close to the model really shows off just how beautiful and nuanced the paint is on the saucer. It's a shame that none of that shading or detail ever showed up on film.
  3. RPF Premium Member asalaw's Avatar
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    Jan 26, 2015, 1:38 PM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #28

    Yeah. It would today because of the way models can be shot and the sensitivity of digital now, but ironically the model's in no condition for that anymore. Also, when they originally painted the model, they were probably expecting some washout, and compensated with more intense coloring.
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    Jan 26, 2015, 1:47 PM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #29

    With regard to the lighting in Miarecki's shop, I find that idea far too generous. He clearly had a heavy hand with regard to his weathering/destruction of the original paint. As a former pro model maker, not to mention a lifelong Star Trek fan, I find his work on the Enterprise to be reprehensible. Just my opinion...
  5. RPF Premium Member asalaw's Avatar
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    Jan 26, 2015, 2:45 PM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #30

    Well, what Collum was referring to viz. the lighting in the shop was the color mismatch, not the overall quality of the weathering. When the model was in the gift shop, you couldn't tell that the saucer paint tones didn't match the bridge and the rest of the model. But at Udvar-Hazy, it just jumped right out at you. The lighting in the gift shop was very dim and warm, but in the conservation lab, it was white as white gets. Perfect lighting in there for what they do. So I think it's plausible that if EM's lighting was too dim or the wrong color temp, that nobody caught the color issue. No question, the original paint on the saucer is a much warmer green hue than EM put on the rest of the model.
  6. RPF Premium Member BrianM's Avatar
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    Jan 26, 2015, 4:55 PM - Pics from the NASM Jan 24, 2015 Open House #31

    Below are the links to my picture pages. Over 200 photos from every angle I could get. Including the port side thanks to Chief Conservator Malcom Collum who was kind enough to shoot for me. There are some repetitions, sorry but I was maneuvering in front of a large crowd. I took a couple shots of the crowd. Again they underestimated the popularity of this exhibit. The counter at the door told me 801 per hour...

    Photo Page #1

    Photo Page #2

    Or if you like to download them all in a zip file at full resolution. ZIP File

    Please comment and dissect what you see in this public forum. I've already spotted some things I did not know where there.
  7. Midnightprowler's Avatar
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    Jan 26, 2015, 6:15 PM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #32

    Guys, thanks for sharing. I gotta think, that the original paint, especially if they used a clear over it, would yellow and darken over 50 years.
  8. RPF Premium Member asalaw's Avatar
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    Jan 26, 2015, 6:33 PM - Re: Pics from the NASM Jan 24, 2015 Open House #33

    BrianM said: View Post
    Below are the links to my picture pages. Over 200 photos from every angle I could get. Including the port side thanks to Chief Conservator Malcom Collum who was kind enough to shoot for me. There are some repetitions, sorry but I was maneuvering in front of a large crowd. I took a couple shots of the crowd. Again they underestimated the popularity of this exhibit. The counter at the door told me 801 per hour...

    Photo Page #1

    Photo Page #2

    Or if you like to download them all in a zip file at full resolution. ZIP File

    Please comment and dissect what you see in this public forum. I've already spotted some things I did not know where there.
    Crap!!!!

    I wont be home till 9:30, and I have to get up at 6:30, and NOW he posts the Crown Jewels!!!
  9. RPF Premium Member TimeyWimey's Avatar
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    Jan 26, 2015, 9:46 PM - Re: Pics from the NASM Jan 24, 2015 Open House #34

    BrianM said: View Post
    Below are the links to my picture pages. Over 200 photos from every angle I could get. Including the port side thanks to Chief Conservator Malcom Collum who was kind enough to shoot for me. There are some repetitions, sorry but I was maneuvering in front of a large crowd. I took a couple shots of the crowd. Again they underestimated the popularity of this exhibit. The counter at the door told me 801 per hour...

    Photo Page #1

    Photo Page #2

    Or if you like to download them all in a zip file at full resolution. ZIP File

    Please comment and dissect what you see in this public forum. I've already spotted some things I did not know where there.
    These are fantastic. All I can say, seeing these very clear images, is what in the world was he thinking with all those panel lines and shading? It looks horrible! Regardless of authenticity, it's ugly!
  10. RPF Premium Member asalaw's Avatar
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    Jan 26, 2015, 10:31 PM - Re: Pics from the NASM Jan 24, 2015 Open House #35

    BrianM said: View Post
    Below are the links to my picture pages. Over 200 photos from every angle I could get. Including the port side thanks to Chief Conservator Malcom Collum who was kind enough to shoot for me. There are some repetitions, sorry but I was maneuvering in front of a large crowd. I took a couple shots of the crowd. Again they underestimated the popularity of this exhibit. The counter at the door told me 801 per hour...

    Photo Page #1

    Photo Page #2

    Or if you like to download them all in a zip file at full resolution. ZIP File

    Please comment and dissect what you see in this public forum. I've already spotted some things I did not know where there.
    OK Brian, your links are on the index post now! WOOHOO!!!

    Not sure there's any point putting up my own gift shop photos anymore -- which I'm fine with, because it would be at least another week or two before I can come up for air long enough anyway...
  11. RPF Premium Member asalaw's Avatar
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    Jan 26, 2015, 10:34 PM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #36

    So suddenly we're SWIMMING in reference pictures, and TrekCore hasn't even posted their stuff yet! Yay!
  12. Treadwell's Avatar
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    Jan 26, 2015, 11:39 PM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #37

    asalaw said: View Post
    tracking down the original FX camera negatives
    Historically, pretty much only ILM has ever saved that kind of thing long after project completion. But the place to look would be the remaining assets for the shops that did compositing for Desilu and Paramount, such as the Anderson Co. I recall an anecdote about someone locating the original transporter sparkle element that was still in storage at one such shop by the time it was needed again for TNG's "Relics", so I'm not about to say "never". But...
  13. RPF Premium Member asalaw's Avatar
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    Jan 27, 2015, 10:41 AM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #38

    Heard back from Malcolm Collum. He gave me permission to post the video of him shooting the port side with Brian's camera, so I'll try to get that done tonight.
  14. BlobVanDam's Avatar
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    Jan 27, 2015, 11:41 AM - Re: Pics from the NASM Jan 24, 2015 Open House #39

    BrianM said: View Post
    Below are the links to my picture pages. Over 200 photos from every angle I could get. Including the port side thanks to Chief Conservator Malcom Collum who was kind enough to shoot for me. There are some repetitions, sorry but I was maneuvering in front of a large crowd. I took a couple shots of the crowd. Again they underestimated the popularity of this exhibit. The counter at the door told me 801 per hour...

    Photo Page #1

    Photo Page #2

    Or if you like to download them all in a zip file at full resolution. ZIP File

    Please comment and dissect what you see in this public forum. I've already spotted some things I did not know where there.
    Wow, thanks a lot for sharing these! They're fantastic. You can never have too much reference material for such an iconic model as the original Enterprise herself.

    There are so many photos there, I decided to take a crack at photogrammetry, which I've never been able to get working before. Several hours later, it spat this model out. I might play around with it and see if I can get it more accurate, and will post the model if anyone's interested.

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    Jan 27, 2015, 12:08 PM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #40

    Thank you for this thread.
  16. RPF Premium Member TimeyWimey's Avatar
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    Jan 27, 2015, 8:08 PM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #41

    Do we know if this kind of close-up photographic documentation was done of the model before the early-90's restoration? I've seen the pictures at the model shop where it's been disassembled, but I've never EVER seen photographs of the model at this level of detail until now. But sadly, it's AFTER it was changed. I wish I could see it at this level of detail in its near-original state. I'd like to see what the original paint job at that time looked like.

    The top of the saucer, with theoretically original paint is VERY green compared to the restoration paint, and much greener than it ever looked on TV (but that doesn't mean much I admit). I'm wondering how much of that green is original, and how much is the paint yellowing over time, as paint tends to do.

    P.S. - Also, the flash from flash photography doesn't even begin to wash out the heavy-handed weathering, definitely putting the lie to the notion that this was how it was originally painted, but it was washed out by studio lighting.
  17. RPF Premium Member TimeyWimey's Avatar
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    Jan 27, 2015, 8:15 PM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #42

    Somewhere I have the Star Trek Poster magazine with photographs of the model as it looked right after the first restoration ("turkey red" bussard collectors and all). If I can find it, I'll scan those images.
  18. RPF Premium Member asalaw's Avatar
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    Jan 27, 2015, 11:01 PM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #43

    TimeyWimey said: View Post
    P.S. - Also, the flash from flash photography doesn't even begin to wash out the heavy-handed weathering, definitely putting the lie to the notion that this was how it was originally painted, but it was washed out by studio lighting.
    The flash on your camera is less than a kitchen match compared to film lights. We're talking thousands of watts, even tens of thousands of watts.

    Go look at the Bird of the Galaxy pictures of the FX shoots (the link is up top), you'll see guys working the model with their shirts off. It ain't for sex appeal.

    For regular interior scene lighting in the 1980s and 90s (when I was in the industry), when film stocks were many times faster than what they had to work with in the 60s, 500-watt lights were used as kickers, meaning little accent lights to highlight some little thing on the set, or as eyelights, to highlight an actor's eyes for the camera. Those are called inkies. They didn't get that name by being the biggest lights on the set.

    Yes, 500 watts to do what you do at home with a little 15-watt accent light. Not a typo.

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    An inkie, or "Baby Mole." 500 watts, mofos!
    For scale, the fresnel lens is about 3" in diameter.


    No, the biggest lights on an interior set could be anywhere from 2,000 watts (a "2K") to 10,000 watts (a "10K"), depending on the size of the set and how much light you needed and the contrast you were after.

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    Here's a huge Hawaiian dude with what (I'm pretty
    sure) is a 5K. Very common interior key light for film.


    But the regular interior lighting I'm talking about is completely inadequate for model photography of the sort they did back then. In order to keep the entire model in focus, you need to stop your aperture down as far as possible. A prosumer camera lens usually stops down as far as ƒ22. But pro lenses, even back then, could go to ƒ32 or smaller. Also, you shoot with wide lenses. You stay back from the model as much as possible, one of the things that drives large model sizes.

    But mainly, you need thousands and thousands of metric f***ktons of light. Especially since they were shooting at 24 fps or faster, which meant a minimum exposure speed of 1/48 sec. -- ten years later, for Star Wars, the Dykstraflex enabled long exposures and even the use of a tilt-shift lens to really squeeze DoF out of smaller models. But TOS had no such technology. They were dollying a regular production Mitchell camera around that model in real time by hand. [EDIT: Wrong! According to Joseph Westheimer in American Cinematographer, the dolly was motorized. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2o...ew?usp=sharing ]

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Old school, you bastards!

    It would not surprise me in the least to learn that for any given shot, they were putting as much as 20,000 watts of light on it. Not counting another 10K or so to light up the bluescreen.

    Oh, and 10K isn't even the biggest light I saw used indoors on a stage. I've seen 20K tungstens and even carbon arc lamps used indoors. Those require an operator to keep the carbon rods in tune as they burn down, to keep the light at a constant value. Very often used outdoors as fill in daylight, or even as a key if the sun goes behind a cloud. Indoors, you have to run ventilation hose from the lamp to send the smoke outside, because AIDS-cancer f***kdeath.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    An arc lamp, or "brute," or "brute arc," or "GAAAAAAHHH!!! MY EYES!!!!!"

    So long story short, no flash popped on that model all the live-long day Saturday even came close to the incredible amount of light blasted on it onstage. Not even all of them at once. Yes, it's plausible, and even definitely the case, that the paint was washed out during photography.

    Like this:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    And as you can see above, that's not even getting into the horrific amount of grain and contrast created by their compositing process...

    - - - Updated - - -

    TimeyWimey said: View Post
    Somewhere I have the Star Trek Poster magazine with photographs of the model as it looked right after the first restoration ("turkey red" bussard collectors and all). If I can find it, I'll scan those images.
    Gary Kerr often alludes to high-res images he has, but it's not clear how long before the '91 kreplach they were taken, since he can't disclose them publicly. I assume he's under NDA.
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    Last edited by asalaw; Feb 3, 2015 at 9:50 AM.
  19. Shaw's Avatar
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    Jan 28, 2015, 12:04 AM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #44

    asalaw said: View Post
    Gary Kerr often alludes to high-res images he has, but it's not clear how long before the '91 kreplach they were taken, since he can't disclose them publicly. I assume he's under NDA.
    Kerr can release pretty much anything of his he wants to. The only NDA he had was a version of his plans which were to be part of a book that wasn't published. Kerr doesn't disclose information freely because if he does that, there isn't any reason to pay him for it. There are things shared between people with the express condition not to make them public (I have photos I got this way), but anything I personally produce I have generally been willing to make publicly available (under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike license).

    And in all my years of researching this stuff I've made, roughly... $0.00.

    I don't blame Kerr for not sharing.
  20. RPF Premium Member asalaw's Avatar
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    Jan 28, 2015, 12:30 AM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #45

    Well, that was more of a diplomatic assumption on my part... and I'm not terribly surprised... though I didn't realize they were his own photos. I thought he'd gotten them from CBS or Paramount archives or something.

    If the book wasn't published, I wonder if the NDA is still valid. Of course you can contract around subject matter issues (and damn near anything else), so for all I know he's still stuck with it.
  21. RPF Premium Member TimeyWimey's Avatar
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    Jan 28, 2015, 1:09 AM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #46

    asalaw said: View Post
    So long story short, no flash popped on that model all the live-long day Saturday even came close to the incredible amount of light blasted on it onstage. Not even all of them at once. Yes, it's plausible, and even definitely the case, that the paint was washed out during photography
    Ok, fair enough. But we also have that one photo of the model being exhibited minus its deflector dish in the late 60s (I think) absolutely not under bright studio lighting, and there's no sign at all of all that heavy handed panel weathering. Unless we want to argue that it got a repaint prior to that point.
  22. RPF Premium Member asalaw's Avatar
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    Jan 28, 2015, 7:37 AM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #47

    Argue? Definitely not.

    Mind you, I'm not saying EM's paint job was accurate or even pretty, just plausible. For instance, I've seen absolutely no evidence that all those grid lines he put all over the model have any basis whatsoever. Even the saucer lines are just pencil. But that's just going from what I've seen around the Interwebs, YMMV.

    The streaking on the secondary hull and nacelles was definitely there. You can see it (barely) in production shots of Space Seed and others. But that says nothing about all the rest of it. What truly sucks Andorian tailpipe is that Miarecki went all the way down to bare wood, which I'm pretty sure Dr. Weitekamp said was consistent with practice at the time (anyone else who was at her presentation, please pipe up if that's not correct).

    This shot's pretty good -- you can just make out the streak at the base of the pylon, but no visible gridlines all over the hull:
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    Space Seed: Again, the streaking on the hull and nacelles is there, the leading edge of the dorsal shows that darker color, but still no gridlines:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    But neither of these shots really shows what's going on color-wise. They're not even that close in hue to each other, let alone reality.

    One interesting thing, though: however bright the studio lighting was, it didn't completely wash out the model's own lighting. You could still see the lit windows and saucer domes. The engine effect, though, was pretty washed out on the show, and in many shots all you could see was the rotation.

    So, early repaint? Not sure, though I recently read something implying some sort of fix-up in '74 prior to display. Can't remember where. Anyone?
  23. WinstonWolf359's Avatar
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    Jan 28, 2015, 9:37 AM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #48

    I remember from somewhere that the original stand also has some of the hull paint on it. It would be interesting to compare the paint on that to how the saucer appears today, since the stand was lost in storage somewhere until 2000 or so. It could confirm if/how much the base hull color has changed.
  24. RPF Premium Member asalaw's Avatar
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    Jan 28, 2015, 12:13 PM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #49

    I don't recall ever seeing that, but I've never looked closely. But the top of the stand appears to be stripped down to the rebar. [Not rebar, just rod -- don't know why I thought I was looking at rebar all those times.]

    EDIT-- just had another look at the stand on the Smithsonian page. The only paint left is actually on the legs, but there's enough to sample. Malcolm Collum said there's almost no resin or binder left in it, so the paint is almost like a chalk and should still be close to the original color. But bear in mind the saucer and the stand are done in completely different kinds of paint and certainly different colors, so it's not a straightforward comparison.

    Here's their photo of the stand when it was at the gift shop.
    Last edited by asalaw; Jan 29, 2015 at 7:37 AM.
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    Feb 3, 2015, 1:11 AM - Re: One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A... #50

    I think this is a good shot. It isn't restored, and the ship isn't under production lights.
    I said in another thread if Mr. Thompson could be contacted perhaps he has several more shots that could be properly scanned to help the committee see it's true appearance before any restorations.
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    Spockboy
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