One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A...

Discussion in 'Studio Scale Models' started by asalaw, Jan 14, 2015.

  1. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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    And now, back to the regular thread...

    The One-Stop 11' TOS Enterprise Reference Thread: NCC-1701, No Bloody A...

    Fellow member BrianM suggested over in the Enterprise Restoration Thread that there should be a one-stop Enterprise thread, and I agreed. Since I'm sitting on quite a lot of links, reference, and my own photos of the Enterprise taken over the years in the Smithsonian gift shop, I thought I'd just jump in and take a crack at it. I asked the Mods to consider this thread for sticking, and they stuck it. Thanks, Mods!! :)

    Post your links in this thread, and I'll update this post so we can keep the most interesting and current links right here up front. It goes without saying that any errors or omissions in this post are my own * fault, and I'll fix them as I become aware of them in my ongoing effort to erase all my unpleasant memories, or at least get rid of the evidence. :p (Okay, well, I guess it didn't go without saying...)

    Here we go:

    Relevant RPF Threads:

    The Enterprise Restoration Project Thread - Discussion of the Smithsonian's 2014 - 2016 in-house restoration of the original model prior to its new home in the upcoming Boeing Milestones of Flight Hall at the National Air and Space Museum.

    Steve Neill's 66" Scratch-build Thread - Epic project by Steve Neill, an industry model maker, MUFX artist, and Trek enthusiast. Full of eye-popping photos, advanced techniques, and incredible tips on large-model mastering, molding, and casting. An absolute must-read!

    David Shaw's 33" Scratch-build Thread - Still underway as of this posting, based on extensive research of the 33" model's unique features, and looking fantastic.

    David Shaw's 1/6 Scratch-build Thread - That's 1/6 scale to the original 11' model, not to real life (where would you put it?). Done as a model of the model, not the starship, with an eye toward learning more about the studio model! And the hits just keep on comin'! [Added 1/23/15]

    Commander Max's 11' Scratch-build Thread - Embarrassed to say I missed this first time through! Doesn't get much more epic than this, and it's looking incredibly good! [Added 1/15/15]
    [Update -- 2/5/16] Unfortunately all the pictures have been taken down and there are some inaccuracies, but some of the text still has good information.

    Miniaturizer Ray's Blinking Domes Thread - Fun debate about whether the lights in the Bussard domes blink. SPOILER ALERT: Yup.

    External Links About the Original Studio Models:

    NEW! Gary Kerr's Article on CultTVMan laying out the color matches for the restored Enterprise! Part 1 and Part 2!

    NASM's "Star Trek Starship Enterprise" page, with links to all their blog articles and gallery images!

    Gary Kerr's report, "Finding the Nuts and Bolts of the Enterprise," a sure-fire nerdgasm for the rivet-counters!

    NASM REVEALS THE RESTORATION PAINT CODES!!!
    Please, RPFeeps, let's not start a nationwide run on Benjamin Moore "Heather Gray" # 2139-40. You'll scare the paint store people. :p Thanks to Opus Penguin for the link!

    Gary Kerr's HobbyTalk thread kicks off with major revelations about the original nacelle domes. Thanks to CessnaDriver for posting the link!!

    The Washington Post's announcement about the model's going on display as of Tuesday, June 28th. Yay!

    The Enterprise, NCC-1701 and the Model Maker on Amazon! Fascinating information about the construction of both the 33" and 11' models from the son and daughter of Richard Datin, the original builder! A wonderful read at a bargain price!

    Screenshot 2016-06-19 17.33.19.png

    From the Buffalo City News Online, NASM Chief Conservator Malcolm Collum has enlisted his alma mater's help in using state-of-the-art materials analysis to identify the glues keeping the ol' girl together! (Somebody should give Cher their phone number!) :p

    TrekCore's gallery of shots from the 2016 Open House at Udvar-Hazy! Among other things, there's a great shot of the area on the saucer top that was test cleaned, and it looks amazing!

    Great little piece on Space.com, plus a nice downloadable photo gallery!

    Popular Mechanics article about the 2016 Udvar-Hazy Open House. Take the details (and some of the spelling) in the article with a grain of salt, since the writer seems to have confused some of what Ariel O'Connor, Malcolm Collum, and Margaret Weitecamp were actually saying -- but it's still a fascinating read.

    The Smithsonian Page on the Current (2014 - 2016) Restoration Project - Follow developments here!

    NASM's X-Ray Analysis of the Starship Enterprise - Information and X-Rays from the 1999 analysis of the model by the Smithsonian!

    TrekCore Interviews with Dr. Margaret Weitekamp from NASM on the 2014 - 2016 Restoration - This link is the most recent as of this posting, from Dec. 2014. Links for the prior interviews are also found here.

    TrekCore Enterprise Model Archive Page - TrekCore's page listing all of their blog entries about the 2014 - 2016 restoration. Excellent stuff! [Added 2/15/15]

    The Enterprise Models Page at Star Trek History - A great gallery of vintage photos of both the 33" and 11' models and VFX production stills. Also check out the Star Trek History Home Page for great restored production photos, deleted scenes, and articles about the history of the show.

    David Shaw's Page on the 33" Enterprise Model - David's put quite a lot of work and painstaking research into tracking down the history of this missing model. He discusses it here, and includes links to download his construction plans, his recreation of Matt Jeffries' own plans, his list of the 33" model's major dimensions, and even more TOS links!

    Alan Sinclair's Blueprints of the Original 11' Enterprise - Still free, and still among the best! [Now linked to the revised version on the LCARS Blueprint Database -- 6/4/16]

    Charles Casimiro's Blueprints of the Original 11' Enterprise - Top-notch blueprints at Cygnus X-1, and I'd never heard of these! Thanks, FlyingDachshund! - [Added 1/15/15]

    Archive of the IDIC Page Photos - A collection of William McCullars' photos on his page from the 90s, along with some photos from the now-defunct Drex Files. [Update -- 4/23/18 -- Sadly, this page is gone.]

    Wayback Machine Web Archive of the IDIC Page - Some dead links as you'd expect, but the IDIC Page lives on! Thanks, robn1! - [Added 1/15/15]

    Gallery of the Controversial 1991 Restoration by Ed Miarecki - Excellent high-resolution photos of the restoration in progress, including stunning photos of the model disassembled and sanded down to her original paint. Even her innards are exposed! On Modeler Magic.

    The Star Trek Blueprints Library at Cygnus X-1 - All kinds of blueprints are archived here, even the old (but beloved) Franz Joseph blueprints. And not just the Enterprise - this page is a genuine wonderland of Trek blueprints and manuals.

    Trekplace - A whole site chock-full of amazing interviews and articles about the Enterprise and lots of other Trek-related topics. Even a shot-by-shot reference of TOS Enterprise FX shots!

    HobbyTalk Blueprints Discussion Thread - Very good discussion comparing the Sinclair and Casimiro blueprints; includes thoughtful commentary by Phil Broad, Gary Kerr, and David Shaw! Thanks, FlyingDachshund! - [Added 1/15/15]

    American Cinematographer Oct. 1967 Article - "Out-of-this-World Special Effects for 'Star Trek,'" by Howard Anderson, Linwood Dunn, and Joseph Westheimer. Not a great reference for the model, but very interesting information about how the VFX were achieved, written by the three VFX directors themselves. Includes rare photos from the Space Seed shoot. Take the dimensions given for the models with a grain (or a pound) of salt - three different VFX supervisors all give different dimensions, and they're all wrong. Go figure. :) - [Added 2/3/15]

    Other Photos, Videos, and Galleries:

    SPACEDOCK, a video by William George covering the repainting of the original model by the conservation team at Udvar-Hazy!

    [video=vimeo;176999007]https://vimeo.com/176999007[/video]​

    Tribble Trial Tends Toward Trouble, at the NASM web site. Very funny, with a particularly sublime pun in the second-to-last paragraph.

    TrekCore's Structural Integrity Video! Brace yourself for awesome! (See what I did there?) :p
    Thanks to CessnaDriver for the link!


    Trekcore's Teaser Video, "A Photo Finish!" Margaret Weitecamp talks about the newest pictures NASM received after last year's public appeal! Thanks to Cessna Driver for the link! [Added 2/6/2016]


    Lou Dalmaso's Video of Margaret Weitecamp's talk on Jan. 30, 2016. I was sitting behind Lou while he taped it, but I moved to the front row to get away from an asshat who was doing a running commentary, and I didn't get a chance to say Hi. How rude of me! :p Thanks, Robn1, for the link!


    ASALaw's Gallery of Shots from the 2016 Udvar-Hazy Open House
    - Over 150 shots of the ol' gal in pieces, with revelations we've spent decades whining for!

    Birdofthegalaxy's Photostream on Flickr
    - An immense collection of restored pictures of the Enterprise, including VFX production shots, and tons of restored TOS photos, slate shots, publicity stills, and more!

    Enterprise Schematics on TrekCore - Pretty interesting, including more drawings by Alan Sinclair.

    BrianM's Gallery of Shots from the 2015 Viewing - Fantastic shots of the ol' gal on display at the Smithsonian's Udvar-Hazy Center in Chantilly, Va. on January 24, 2015 -- including shots taken of the port side by Chief Conservator Malcolm Collum! Here's Page 1, and here's Page 2! Or download the whole high-res shebang in one zip file!
    Keep it comin', folks -- bring on your links, photos, videos, comments, stories, and whatever else 1701 you've got! :)

    Screenshot 2016-06-19 17.33.19.png
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2018
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  2. FlyingDachshund

    FlyingDachshund Active Member

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  3. Junk Pilot

    Junk Pilot Sr Member

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    Another great resource thread. Awesome and many thanks.
     
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  4. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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  5. robn1

    robn1 Master Member

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  6. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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  7. TheDuc

    TheDuc New Member

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    This is excellent, thank you.
     
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  8. BrianM

    BrianM Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Thanks for doing this.

    I'll be adding my gazillion shots from the open house. 9 days and counting...
     
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  9. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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    Thanks - and I'll be looking forward to it!
     
  10. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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    Another RPF page "discovered" -- that is, I finally "discovered" the page was there, much the same way I often "discover" a large building I've been walking past for years. Usually with my face. Trained observer, that's me! :p

    Anyhoo, it's David Shaw's 1/6 scale "model of the model" -- check it out!! :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2018
  11. TimeyWimey

    TimeyWimey Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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  12. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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    Those are awesome! @BrianM had his DSLR too, and he got a ton of shots, and -- get this -- he asked Malcolm Collum, the chief conservator, to take his camera and do a walk-around -- AND HE DID IT!!!!!! WOOHOO!!!! So when Brian gets back home to the OC (and comes up for air), he's gonna treat us to a massive E-injection!! Not to mention, there were a whole lotta RPF members in attendance, and they all had cameras, so relax, go make popcorn, and watch it all roll in. :)

    I shot video of Mr. Collum doing the walk-around, I'm emailing him tonight to give him some contacts I promised, I'll ask his permission to post it. Nothing momentous, but the cool factor is just too much not to want to post it. :) Seriously, I've been five years old all day today, and I'm still geeking out, so please bear with me if I seem a bit giddy, because I totally am. :)

    I didn't shoot a whole lot myself today, because I have so many shots of her already, but I did get a bunch of close shots of the saucer. Not going to post them all just yet, too much going on tonight and I have a meeting with the MOSF folks tomorrow that I have to prep for, plus I've got a 55-hour work week starting Monday, so basically I've gotta wedge stuff in here and there. Besides, I have a hunch Brian and others we didn't happen to run into are gonna be posting pix like crazy!

    However....

    Saucer Top Grid Lines.jpg 2015-01-24 11.32.13.jpg

    CAN WE PLEASE STOP ARGUING ABOUT THE PENCIL GRID LINES AND THE RUST RING? THEY'RE THERE.
    K?Thx... :p

    Saucer Top Grid Lines.jpg

    2015-01-24 11.32.13.jpg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2018
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  13. moffeaton

    moffeaton Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    That's great! We got Mr Collum to bring out the Desilu stand!
    Here's my pics

    - - - Updated - - -

    P1240053.jpg P1240064.jpg P1240062.jpg P1240061.jpg P1240060.jpg P1240059.jpg P1240057.jpg P1240056.jpg P1240055.jpg P1240066.jpg

    - - - Updated - - -

    P1240071.jpg P1240077.jpg P1240076.jpg P1240075.jpg P1240074.jpg P1240073.jpg P1240072.jpg P1240069.jpg P1240070.jpg P1240078.jpg
     
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  14. moffeaton

    moffeaton Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    P1240082.jpg P1240089.jpg P1240088.jpg P1240087.jpg P1240085.jpg P1240084.jpg P1240083.jpg P1240080.jpg P1240081.jpg P1240090.jpg

    - - - Updated - - -

    P1240096.jpg P1240093.jpg P1240092.jpg P1240098.jpg P1240111.jpg P1240112.jpg

    - - - Updated - - -

    That's it! Also took a TON of Ho-229 pics and have a standing invite to come see it privately soon!!
     
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  15. moffeaton

    moffeaton Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I talked to Gary Kerr today too - he maintains the green streaks were there even in the 1970s, and the dish with the "Tic-Tac" was a best guess mock up, and they are replacing with a more accurate one... and if $$ and time permits, the lower saucer dome nipple and phaser emitter.
     
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  16. TimeyWimey

    TimeyWimey Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    We seem to have picked a lot of the same details to highlight, I think we have similar details that we've been hoping to try to see more clearly.

    Flashing back to about 1981, this is what I remember seeing in the downtown NASM, missing the dome on top of the bridge, and with bright red hemispheres on the noses of the engines:

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Great pics keep em coming! :thumbsup
     
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  18. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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    Wait, Gary Kerr was there? Crap. I would've loved to meet him.

    We must've just missed you, since when we got there the stand was already out. What a day, though -- amazing all around, and for me, the icing on the cake was hustling over to Dr. Weitekamp's lecture and suddenly coming across a certain beloved Greg Jein joint on permanent display...

    2015-01-24 15.35.05.jpg

    Boy, am I ever coming back for a metric frakload of pictures... but that's for another thread, I suppose... :)
     
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  19. wasili

    wasili Sr Member

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    Thanx very much for putting this thread together, and thx to those that uploaded the pics... (y)thumbsup
     
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  20. WinstonWolf359

    WinstonWolf359 Sr Member

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    GREAT pics guys! :)

    I didn't get any photos better than the ones already posted but I do have some interesting tidbits to share.


    The structure is in good condition overall, it's the original glue that's failing. The model will most likely be disassembled pretty significantly to have new glue applied and some areas (like where the nacelle pylons attach) will be shimmed to increase their durability.


    They discovered that the nacelles had weight added to the far ends back in 1975 to help counterweight the model when it had been displayed hanging from the ceiling. Unfortunately those weights had not been removed during the 1991 restoration, probably because they didn't know they weren't original. Once the current team removed that weight they learned that the nacelles are fairly light and well balanced and probably will NOT need additional support in the new display.


    The model will receive new LED lighting to allow it to be displayed lit more often.


    The model will be repainted (other than the saucer top) to match as closely as is possible the model's final appearance in 1969.


    They have not decided what they are going to do with the unfinished side of the model. with one of the men involved in the restoration I do have some interesting tidbits to share.

    He said the structure is in good condition overall, it's the original glue that's failing. The model will most likely be disassembled pretty significantly to have new glue applied and some areas (like where the nacelle pylons attach) will be shimmed to increase their durability.

    They discovered that the nacelles had weight added to the far ends back in 1975 to help counterweight the model when it had been displayed hanging from the ceiling. Unfortunately those weights had not been removed during the 1991 restoration, probably because they didn't know they weren't original. Once the current team removed that weight they learned that the nacelles are fairly light and well balanced and probably will NOT need additional support in the new display.

    The model will receive new LED lighting to allow it to be displayed lit more often.

    The model will be repainted (other than the saucer top) to match as closely as is possible the model's final appearance in 1969.

    They have not decided what they are going to do with the unfinished side of the model.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2018
  21. Shaw

    Shaw Well-Known Member

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    Gosh, I hope that isn't an exact quote... that is what Ed Miarecki said about the 1992 paint job.

    The Enterprise last went before the cameras during the second season of TOS... so on film the last new footage was from late 1967. Every shot of the 11 foot model in the third season was from previously shot stock footage from the first two seasons and the pilots.
     
  22. WinstonWolf359

    WinstonWolf359 Sr Member

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    The quote was more along the lines of "last filmed appearance..." Essentially, they want to match the original level of weathering and match the color of the saucer as it currently appears. Seeing it outside of the glass box it had been in makes it starkly apparent how different the green tone is between the saucer top and the rest of the ship's 1991 paint.
     
  23. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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    Yeah, Malcom Collum mentioned that since the painting was done inside Miarecki's shop, the lighting conditions could have thrown off the color match. Inside the conservation lab, with the white walls and white lighting, the mismatch was glaring. I asked Dr. Weitekamp during her lecture Q&A if they had tried tracking down the original FX camera negatives (not the dupe negs used in the HD remastering), and she wasn't sure if they still existed or whether they'd be a lot of help color-wise.

    I thought about it some more -- after all, you've got that big-* Ultimatte blue screen in the back as your color reference -- but then there's the issue of the lighting on the model.

    First, it may not be the same color values as the light on the blue screen -- those are completely separate lighting setups, carefully flagged off to keep either one from spilling on the other. And they still got lots of blue spill on the model, as all those shots of the model with big grainy voids show.

    Second, there was a lot of light on the model so they could stop down to maintain depth of field, which became more critical the closer the camera got to the model. And that would wash out the lighter values of the paint as well as lighten the darker values. Maybe you could digitally recover that color information on a Da Vinci or something, maybe not.

    In other words, even if you found them and pulled really good frames from them, a 100% color match is not a slam-dunk.
     
  24. WinstonWolf359

    WinstonWolf359 Sr Member

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    I also wonder if the 1960s paint is yellowing at a different rate from the 1991 paint. They might have been a closer match 25 years ago. That wouldn't explain the heavy weathering, of course, but I was really surprised by how stark the difference is in overall hue.
     
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  25. CessnaDriver

    CessnaDriver Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Close ups show the top of the saucer paint has lots of cracks.
    Just leave it? do they plan on some kind of stabilization or attempt to paint in the cracks?

    As for the undetailed side, it's not that undetailed really. Seems to me you could put removable light weight
    parts on held by magnets or even velcro, and faux windows, of course the wiring will have to be concealed but since they
    are tearing her down all that might be possible rerouting things. Enough to make it more presentable, but nothing permanent I guess is what I would suggest.
     
  26. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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    I asked, and they're still chewing on that one. But they're not going to paint in the cracks or anything like that. The saucer top is the only remaining original paint, and beyond hopefully stabilizing it, they don't want to touch it. It's a very old artifact and it's aging, and that's how those things look. Nobody ever suggests filling in the paint cracks on the Mona Lisa...
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2015
  27. WinstonWolf359

    WinstonWolf359 Sr Member

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    I can also say that to the naked eye, the crazing of the paint on the saucer top isn't really noticeable, it's really only that black light shot that shows it looking severe.

    Being able to get THAT close to the model really shows off just how beautiful and nuanced the paint is on the saucer. It's a shame that none of that shading or detail ever showed up on film.
     
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  28. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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    Yeah. It would today because of the way models can be shot and the sensitivity of digital now, but ironically the model's in no condition for that anymore. Also, when they originally painted the model, they were probably expecting some washout, and compensated with more intense coloring.
     
  29. jayroth

    jayroth Active Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    With regard to the lighting in Miarecki's shop, I find that idea far too generous. He clearly had a heavy hand with regard to his weathering/destruction of the original paint. As a former pro model maker, not to mention a lifelong Star Trek fan, I find his work on the Enterprise to be reprehensible. Just my opinion...
     
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  30. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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    Well, what Collum was referring to viz. the lighting in the shop was the color mismatch, not the overall quality of the weathering. When the model was in the gift shop, you couldn't tell that the saucer paint tones didn't match the bridge and the rest of the model. But at Udvar-Hazy, it just jumped right out at you. The lighting in the gift shop was very dim and warm, but in the conservation lab, it was white as white gets. Perfect lighting in there for what they do. So I think it's plausible that if EM's lighting was too dim or the wrong color temp, that nobody caught the color issue. No question, the original paint on the saucer is a much warmer green hue than EM put on the rest of the model.
     
  31. BrianM

    BrianM Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Pics from the NASM Jan 24, 2015 Open House

    Below are the links to my picture pages. Over 200 photos from every angle I could get. Including the port side thanks to Chief Conservator Malcom Collum who was kind enough to shoot for me. There are some repetitions, sorry but I was maneuvering in front of a large crowd. I took a couple shots of the crowd. Again they underestimated the popularity of this exhibit. The counter at the door told me 801 per hour...

    Photo Page #1

    Photo Page #2

    Or if you like to download them all in a zip file at full resolution. ZIP File

    Please comment and dissect what you see in this public forum. I've already spotted some things I did not know where there. :confused
     
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  32. Midnightprowler

    Midnightprowler New Member

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    Guys, thanks for sharing. I gotta think, that the original paint, especially if they used a clear over it, would yellow and darken over 50 years.
     
  33. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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    Re: Pics from the NASM Jan 24, 2015 Open House

    Crap!!!!

    I wont be home till 9:30, and I have to get up at 6:30, and NOW he posts the Crown Jewels!!!:p
     
  34. TimeyWimey

    TimeyWimey Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Re: Pics from the NASM Jan 24, 2015 Open House

    These are fantastic. All I can say, seeing these very clear images, is what in the world was he thinking with all those panel lines and shading? It looks horrible! Regardless of authenticity, it's ugly!
     
  35. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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    Re: Pics from the NASM Jan 24, 2015 Open House

    OK Brian, your links are on the index post now! WOOHOO!!!

    Not sure there's any point putting up my own gift shop photos anymore -- which I'm fine with, because it would be at least another week or two before I can come up for air long enough anyway... :)
     
  36. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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    So suddenly we're SWIMMING in reference pictures, and TrekCore hasn't even posted their stuff yet! Yay! :)
     
  37. Treadwell

    Treadwell Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Historically, pretty much only ILM has ever saved that kind of thing long after project completion. But the place to look would be the remaining assets for the shops that did compositing for Desilu and Paramount, such as the Anderson Co. I recall an anecdote about someone locating the original transporter sparkle element that was still in storage at one such shop by the time it was needed again for TNG's "Relics", so I'm not about to say "never". But...
     
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  38. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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    Heard back from Malcolm Collum. He gave me permission to post the video of him shooting the port side with Brian's camera, so I'll try to get that done tonight. :)
     
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  39. BlobVanDam

    BlobVanDam Sr Member

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    Re: Pics from the NASM Jan 24, 2015 Open House

    Wow, thanks a lot for sharing these! They're fantastic. You can never have too much reference material for such an iconic model as the original Enterprise herself.

    There are so many photos there, I decided to take a crack at photogrammetry, which I've never been able to get working before. Several hours later, it spat this model out. I might play around with it and see if I can get it more accurate, and will post the model if anyone's interested.

    [​IMG]
     
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  40. greatwazoo42

    greatwazoo42 Sr Member

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    Thank you for this thread.
     
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  41. TimeyWimey

    TimeyWimey Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Do we know if this kind of close-up photographic documentation was done of the model before the early-90's restoration? I've seen the pictures at the model shop where it's been disassembled, but I've never EVER seen photographs of the model at this level of detail until now. But sadly, it's AFTER it was changed. I wish I could see it at this level of detail in its near-original state. I'd like to see what the original paint job at that time looked like.

    The top of the saucer, with theoretically original paint is VERY green compared to the restoration paint, and much greener than it ever looked on TV (but that doesn't mean much I admit). I'm wondering how much of that green is original, and how much is the paint yellowing over time, as paint tends to do.

    P.S. - Also, the flash from flash photography doesn't even begin to wash out the heavy-handed weathering, definitely putting the lie to the notion that this was how it was originally painted, but it was washed out by studio lighting.
     
  42. TimeyWimey

    TimeyWimey Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Somewhere I have the Star Trek Poster magazine with photographs of the model as it looked right after the first restoration ("turkey red" bussard collectors and all). If I can find it, I'll scan those images.
     
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  43. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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    The flash on your camera is less than a kitchen match compared to film lights. We're talking thousands of watts, even tens of thousands of watts.

    Go look at the Bird of the Galaxy pictures of the FX shoots (the link is up top), you'll see guys working the model with their shirts off. It ain't for sex appeal.

    For regular interior scene lighting in the 1980s and 90s (when I was in the industry), when film stocks were many times faster than what they had to work with in the 60s, 500-watt lights were used as kickers, meaning little accent lights to highlight some little thing on the set, or as eyelights, to highlight an actor's eyes for the camera. Those are called inkies. They didn't get that name by being the biggest lights on the set.

    Yes, 500 watts to do what you do at home with a little 15-watt accent light. Not a typo.

    MR Inkie.jpg
    An inkie, or "Baby Mole." 500 watts, mofos!
    For scale, the fresnel lens is about 3" in diameter.


    No, the biggest lights on an interior set could be anywhere from 2,000 watts (a "2K") to 10,000 watts (a "10K"), depending on the size of the set and how much light you needed and the contrast you were after.

    MR 5K.jpg
    Here's a huge Hawaiian dude with what (I'm pretty
    sure) is a 5K. Very common interior key light for film.


    But the regular interior lighting I'm talking about is completely inadequate for model photography of the sort they did back then. In order to keep the entire model in focus, you need to stop your aperture down as far as possible. A prosumer camera lens usually stops down as far as ƒ22. But pro lenses, even back then, could go to ƒ32 or smaller. Also, you shoot with wide lenses. You stay back from the model as much as possible, one of the things that drive large model sizes.

    But mainly, you need thousands and thousands of metric f***ktons of light. Especially since they were shooting at 24 fps or faster, which meant a minimum exposure speed of 1/48 sec. -- ten years later, for Star Wars, the Dykstraflex enabled long exposures and even the use of a tilt-shift lens to really squeeze DoF out of smaller models. But TOS had no such technology. They were dollying a regular production Mitchell camera around that model in real time by hand. [EDIT: Wrong! According to Joseph Westheimer in American Cinematographer, the dolly was motorized. :) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2oupUwvgx5FbzRzcHRpajF0d1U/view?usp=sharing ]

    howitwasdone.jpg~original.jpg
    Old school, you bastards!

    It would not surprise me in the least to learn that for any given shot, they were putting as much as 20,000 watts of light on it. Not counting another 10K or so to light up the bluescreen.

    Oh, and 10K isn't even the biggest light I saw used indoors on a stage. I've seen 20K tungstens and even carbon arc lamps used indoors. Those require an operator to keep the carbon rods in tune as they burn down, to keep the light at a constant value. Very often used outdoors as fill in daylight, or even as a key if the sun goes behind a cloud. Indoors, you have to run ventilation hose from the lamp to send the smoke outside, because AIDS-cancer f***kdeath.

    Operating-an-arc-web.jpg
    An arc lamp, or "brute," or "brute arc," or "GAAAAAAHHH!!! MY EYES!!!!!"

    So long story short, no flash popped on that model all the live-long day Saturday even came close to the incredible amount of light blasted on it onstage. Not even all of them at once. Yes, it's plausible, and even definitely the case, that the paint was washed out during photography.

    Like this:

    MIX_1701_2695.jpg thetholianwebhd0003.jpg

    And as you can see above, that's not even getting into the horrific amount of grain and contrast created by their compositing process...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Gary Kerr often alludes to high-res images he has, but it's not clear how long before the '91 kreplach they were taken, since he can't disclose them publicly. I assume he's under NDA.
     

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    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
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  44. Shaw

    Shaw Well-Known Member

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    Kerr can release pretty much anything of his he wants to. The only NDA he had was a version of his plans which were to be part of a book that wasn't published. Kerr doesn't disclose information freely because if he does that, there isn't any reason to pay him for it. There are things shared between people with the express condition not to make them public (I have photos I got this way), but anything I personally produce I have generally been willing to make publicly available (under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike license).

    And in all my years of researching this stuff I've made, roughly... $0.00.

    I don't blame Kerr for not sharing.
     
  45. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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    Well, that was more of a diplomatic assumption on my part... and I'm not terribly surprised... though I didn't realize they were his own photos. I thought he'd gotten them from CBS or Paramount archives or something.

    If the book wasn't published, I wonder if the NDA is still valid. Of course you can contract around subject matter issues (and * near anything else), so for all I know he's still stuck with it.
     
  46. TimeyWimey

    TimeyWimey Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Ok, fair enough. But we also have that one photo of the model being exhibited minus its deflector dish in the late 60s (I think) absolutely not under bright studio lighting, and there's no sign at all of all that heavy handed panel weathering. Unless we want to argue that it got a repaint prior to that point.
     
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  47. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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    Argue? Definitely not. :)

    Mind you, I'm not saying EM's paint job was accurate or even pretty, just plausible. For instance, I've seen absolutely no evidence that all those grid lines he put all over the model have any basis whatsoever. Even the saucer lines are just pencil. But that's just going from what I've seen around the Interwebs, YMMV.

    The streaking on the secondary hull and nacelles was definitely there. You can see it (barely) in production shots of Space Seed and others. But that says nothing about all the rest of it. What truly sucks Andorian tailpipe is that Miarecki went all the way down to bare wood, which I'm pretty sure Dr. Weitekamp said was consistent with practice at the time (anyone else who was at her presentation, please pipe up if that's not correct).

    This shot's pretty good -- you can just make out the streak at the base of the pylon, but no visible gridlines all over the hull:
    Enterprise VFX 01.jpg

    Space Seed: Again, the streaking on the hull and nacelles is there, the leading edge of the dorsal shows that darker color, but still no gridlines:

    Enterprise VFX 02.jpg

    But neither of these shots really shows what's going on color-wise. They're not even that close in hue to each other, let alone reality.

    One interesting thing, though: however bright the studio lighting was, it didn't completely wash out the model's own lighting. You could still see the lit windows and saucer domes. The engine effect, though, was pretty washed out on the show, and in many shots all you could see was the rotation.

    So, early repaint? Not sure, though I recently read something implying some sort of fix-up in '74 prior to display. Can't remember where. Anyone?
     
  48. WinstonWolf359

    WinstonWolf359 Sr Member

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    I remember from somewhere that the original stand also has some of the hull paint on it. It would be interesting to compare the paint on that to how the saucer appears today, since the stand was lost in storage somewhere until 2000 or so. It could confirm if/how much the base hull color has changed.
     
  49. asalaw

    asalaw Sr Member

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    I don't recall ever seeing that, but I've never looked closely. But the top of the stand appears to be stripped down to the rebar. [Not rebar, just rod -- don't know why I thought I was looking at rebar all those times.]

    EDIT-- just had another look at the stand on the Smithsonian page. The only paint left is actually on the legs, but there's enough to sample. Malcolm Collum said there's almost no resin or binder left in it, so the paint is almost like a chalk and should still be close to the original color. But bear in mind the saucer and the stand are done in completely different kinds of paint and certainly different colors, so it's not a straightforward comparison.

    Here's their photo of the stand when it was at the gift shop.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2018
  50. spockboy

    spockboy Well-Known Member

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    I think this is a good shot. It isn't restored, and the ship isn't under production lights.
    I said in another thread if Mr. Thompson could be contacted perhaps he has several more shots that could be properly scanned to help the committee see it's true appearance before any restorations.
    71ent2.jpg
    71ent9.jpg

    :)Spockboy
     

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