Breaking Bad

SquidMan said:

Here's where we disagree.

Originally, I agreed with you. When watching the final four episodes as they were airing I wondered why the Neo-Nazis got to be the final villains when Gus, and arguably even Tuco, were more interesting characters.

But then I realized that the series positions Uncle Jack and Todd as mirror images of Walt and Jesse. Uncle Jack and Todd now diligently run the lab. Walt had called Jesse his nephew before, to multiple people. Jack shares Walt's self-destructive pride, as being called a liar is what prevented him from killing Walt sooner, which would have prevented Jack's death. Todd kills Andrea when he calls her to her door, just as Jesse killed Gale. Jack kills Hank, but Walt both figuratively and literally dug Hank's grave, both by creating this situation and by digging the pit in which Hank was buried. The Neo-Nazis are a reflection of Walt and Jesse's worst qualities and deeds. (Also, they are fitting in terms of the whole Werner Heisenberg/Nazi connection)

Season 5 is, below the surface narrative, about realization and self examination. Jesse realizes the weight of his wrongdoings, gets out of the business, and attempts to help Hank. The family learns about Walt's drug empire and we see them in their true colors, for better or worse. This is most clearly expressed when Walt says to Skyler, "I did it for me."

So, the Neo-Nazis really represent the consequences of what Walt and Jesse had brought upon themselves. They are their own true destructors. How fitting, then, that Walt dies from his own bullet.

If Hank had really captured or killed Walt, it would have really been a missed opportunity for these characters to symbolically come against the biggest villains of the series: themselves.

It's just like Jesse says in Season 3, "I accept who I am. I'm the bad guy." But it really took them until the end of the series to feel the consequences of their own actions.

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thequackdealer said:

Walt redeemed himself because he came to the realization that the things he did were wrong, and he tried to fix them as best he could. Would you rather him have brought the dead back to life? He got rid of all the big meth manufacturers in Albuquerque, of course there will be more to fill their place, but he righted his wrong. I have seen this show since the first episode aired, and have watched it multiple times, so I am biased. However I do think he redeemed himself, like he said to Skyler he did this for himself, and not his family. He rid himself of all his pride, and the fact that he saved Jesse is just icing on the cake.

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SquidMan said:

Here's where we disagree.

Originally, I agreed with you. When watching the final four episodes as they were airing I wondered why the Neo-Nazis got to be the final villains when Gus, and arguably even Tuco, were more interesting characters.

But then I realized that the series positions Uncle Jack and Todd as mirror images of Walt and Jesse. Uncle Jack and Todd now diligently run the lab. Walt had called Jesse his nephew before, to multiple people. Jack shares Walt's self-destructive pride, as being called a liar is what prevented him from killing Walt sooner, which would have prevented Jack's death. Todd kills Andrea when he calls her to her door, just as Jesse killed Gale. Jack kills Hank, but Walt both figuratively and literally dug Hank's grave, both by creating this situation and by digging the pit in which Hank was buried. There are even some visual clues that support this: when he's being held captive, Jesse is wearing the shirt Todd wore when he killed Drew Sharp, and Walt kills Jack the same way Jack killed Hank: by shooting him in the head without letting him finish his final words. The Neo-Nazis are a reflection of Walt and Jesse's worst qualities and deeds. (Also, they are fitting in terms of the whole Werner Heisenberg/Nazi connection)

Click to expand...

Season 5 is, below the surface narrative, about realization and self examination. Jesse realizes the weight of his wrongdoings, gets out of the business, and attempts to help Hank. The family learns about Walt's drug empire and we see them in their true colors, for better or worse. This is most clearly expressed when Walt says to Skyler, "I did it for me."

So, the Neo-Nazis really represent the consequences of what Walt and Jesse had brought upon themselves. They are their own true destructors. How fitting, then, that Walt dies from his own bullet.

If Hank had really captured or killed Walt, it would have really been a missed opportunity for these characters to symbolically come against the biggest villains of the series: themselves.

It's just like Jesse says in Season 3, "I accept who I am. I'm the bad guy." But it really took them until the end of the series to feel the consequences of their own actions.

Click to expand...

Hecubus114 said:

The theme of the story is that "breaking bad" never leads to anything good. Everyone was undone by their own choices. Walt and Jesse's choice to cook meth led to their lives being destroyed, and their ultimate punishment being that they had to watch someone they love be killed because of it. Hank's choice not to turn in Walt right when he discovered he was Heisenberg (but rather go rogue and "be the one that caught him") was his undoing.

I highly disagree with anyone who says Walt achieved any kind of "redemption". Walt returned in the final episode because of his pride - which was the driving force behind everything he did. The only difference at the end was that he didn't deny that fact any longer. He knew his time was almost up, and he was going to finish his plan, dammit. He found a way to leave his family his money, take credit for being the greatest meth cook in the world, and kill all those who crossed him. Death was always his end game. He accomplished everything he had been trying to, and "got away" with just seconds to spare before the police rushed in.

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Hecubus114 said:

That was one thing that always made me kind of shake my head during the last couple seasons - the show became so incredibly popular, and so many people jumped on it and started binge watching... I really felt like a lot of the effect was lost on people. I'm sure if I hadn't started from the beginning, I would have done the same (I mean - how can you NOT watch the next episode, knowing it's just sitting there, waiting for you?).

Over the course of 5 years, Walt's transformation felt very fluid and natural. It always amazes me to go back and see what the character started as, and remember that he wasn't always the guy we knew in season 5.

I'll agree he didn't want to kill anyone per se, but he wanted to hold his reputation that he wasn't someone to **** with. Jesse and his family kind of fell out of this category because they knew the real him and what his motivation was. There was no need to hold the tough guy act with them.

Yeah, letting Jesse live was redeeming in a way, but we need to remember that Walt didn't make the journey back to save him. In fact, Walt went back under the assumption that Jesse was cooking his product for them and his betrayal had come full circle. Walt took the M60 planning to kill everyone, including himself, and let that be the end. When he saw that Jesse had been tortured and held against his will, I think he had a moment of "what have I done to this guy?".

It did bother me a little at first that these group of scumbags we only knew for a season were Heisenberg's ultimate undoing, but they represented an important plot element: there would never be an end. Walt's family would never be safe as long as he was alive. There would always be someone next in line out to get him. Marie pointed it out perfectly by saying to Walt that if he would just die, it would all go away.

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Hecubus114 said:

I don't consider it redemption because it wasn't for anyone's benefit but his own. All of his confessions only came when he was caught red handed (or to cause the most pain thinkable in the case of telling Jesse about Jane). He continuously turned down opportunities to leave his family money throughout the series (the last being when he refused to sell the methylamine to Declan) - why? Because those methods didn't serve his pride. It had to be HIM and HIM ALONE that did it. That wasn't for anyone but himself, which he finally admitted to Skyler in the finale, but simply acknowledging that does not equal redemption. Maybe he was ashamed, maybe he did wish to redeem himself in the end... but he had gone too deep. The chance had passed. As he said to Walt Jr. on the phone when he was trying to send the last of the money: "it can't all be for nothing". Walt soul had been sold seasons before that. He had come to terms with being hated. He was a ******* and knew it. It was okay as long as it served some purpose in the end. But morally speaking, I don't consider anything he did to be redemption.


Now don't get me wrong - that's one of the great beauties of this series - there are so many points of views and arguments to be made. It really has made me question my own standards of "right" and "wrong", as well as what defines a "bad" person.

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YenChih Lin said:

The absolute evil probably doesn't exist as well as the absolute good, every man does carry both dimensions of it within. It gets interesting, if the coordinates are shifting, when one turns from rather good to evil or vis versa.

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