VIDEO: How Bad Movies are Made / Rise of Skywalker

[VanPersie]

I fully disagree that there was nowhere to go. I just think that the place to go was a place nobody was prepared to go, and that is...

...BEYOND THE LIMITS OF TRILOGIES......

Seriously, the story had plenty of places to go. Just not places where you could tie everything up with a bow and have the good guys win in a single movie in any manner that is convincing or satisfying. To do that, either you time-skip ahead, or you massively empower the good guys as a short cut to the longer build-up necessary to make it work. And hey, TROS did both! Yaaaaaaaaay....

But consider for a moment what the alternative could have been.

• The next film starts with Snoke dead, and Kylo Ren having been humiliated at the Battle of Krait (such as it was). Luke Skywalker's whereabouts remain unknown (at least to the wider galaxy), but the (New) Rebels have escaped. Meanwhile, the First Order seems triumphant, having all but completely eliminated any serious opposition to it...and yet, the spark of rebellion still flickers in the darkness.
• Kylo Ren seems to be in control, but having "killed the past," he now lacks direction for the future, and has to face down multiple attempts by his underlings to oust him, until he is finally thrown out by a council made up of the Knights of Ren, Gen. Hux, and several other high-ranking First Order characters. He's beaten badly and left for dead, stranded and on his own.
• Contrasted against Kylo Ren's fall is the gradual building up of the new Rebellion as they gather their forces and rebuild. Leia hands off leadership to the new heroes (Poe, Rey, Finn). The new film culminates with them securing a significant victory against the First Order that shows the New Rebellion is still alive and a force to be reckoned with, and which sets up...THE NEXT SEVERAL FILMS.
• Over the course of the next 2-3 films (OR HOWEVER MANY IS NEEDED TO TELL THE STORY EFFECTIVELY), the New Rebellion fights against the First Order, while the First Order suffers from having both "won" as well as its own infighting and power-plays. Where the New Rebellion is united and cooperative in its efforts, the First Order ruling council is made up of self-serving backstabbers just waiting for an opportunity to advance their own personal power, all with the goal of becoming a new emperor. Meanwhile, Ben Solo gradually rebuilds himself and serves as a kind of anti-hero, fighting the First Order, but not aligning with the New Rebellion. He basically undergoes a "face-turn" and sacrifices himself in the end to help the heroes achieve victory.
• Consistent themes are "evil always devours itself because it only knows how to destroy" vs. "good survives because people come together to keep it going." You could then take multiple films to build back up to a truly worthwhile finale, and -- best part of all -- NO PALPATINE!! Maybe you could have, say, Palpatine's DNA be some macguffin at some point (or I guess his "midichlorians" or whatever), but it's all just a macguffin and not him as the final boss villain, which was incredibly lame and myopic. You could also explore a new Jedi order that isn't anything like the old one. More tied into emotion rather than shunning it.

Thing is, you absolutely can't do any of this in a single film to wrap up a trilogy. It'd take multiple films, but you could tell a good story. But no, they wanted a cookie-cutter "just like we did it before because that's how we did it before" approach, and we got what we got.

One other point I wanted to make:

It's not a plot hole that Rey is incredibly strong. She could just be a "vergence" in the Force, which is addressed in other Star Wars media (which remains canon, I should note). She doesn't need to have a powerful bloodline.

The "mystery" around her parentage never made sense anyway. It would be a "mystery" to the audience, but not to Rey. She knows who her parents are, or at least who they were to her. Retconning her into a Palpatine was just beyond stupid. There are more than two families strong in the Force in Star Wars, but you wouldn't know it to watch TROS.

Regardless, what matters for viewers and for the character is not "Where do her powers come from?" but rather "What choices does she make and for what purposes does she use them?" Rey's a Palpatine! Rey's a Kenobi! Rey's a Skywalker! Rey's a rando! Rey's a vergence! Rey's a clone of an ancient Jedi master! Does any of it matter? No. That's the point of TLJ. Rey's parentage is a distraction and is meaningless to the story. What Rey does with her power is all that matters.

Agreed. There were possibilities aplenty.

 

[Egon Spengler]

I've had dreams, like actual dreams when sleeping, about sequels to movies I've loved. Those dreams always seem to have the general ingredients of the movies, but then it all gets jumbled up into something that feels like milk gone sour, or soda gone flat, or off brand Ketchup and Mustard on hamburger with no fries on the side, but instead potato sticks out of a can. That's what these new movies feel like to me. Lots of the ingredients I love, but just a dream gone bad. One that is jumbled, watered down, stale and just not satisfying. Same goes with the television shows, with a few exceptions. The work done on the Last Jedi is massively to blame for the junk we got with The Rise of Skywalker to be honest. Disney really needed to ditch the trilogy format and go for four films after that disaster to clean up what The Last Jedi did but they tried to play it safe and squeeze what should have been two more films into one more just to have a trilogy. Somehow Palpatine returned? Yeah. Bad planning, bad writing and a whole mess of nonsense is how he returned. They were desperate at that point and the Emperor should have never had a comeback.

 

[HeartBlade]

I don’t think making her a nobody is a plot hole as to why she was so strong. I mean, we have no idea why Mace, Kenobi, Dooku, Jinn et al were powerful in the Force. Only really Anakin, Leia, Ben Solo and Luke is ever answered as to why they are.

How they handled how she used the powers etc was very poorly done though.

Mace Windu is a jedi master sitting on the council next to Yoda and is pretty much the second in command to Yoda given he is one of the few that actually speaks. We can assume from context that he is second to Yoda and is pretty freaking strong. We also know from Anakin's interview in 1 that jedi come to the temple from a young age (younger than Anakin at 9) to be trained so have been training in the force and the ways of the jedi their entire lives. Dooku was also a master and Qui Gon's master so we can assume he is strong. We can assume these people have trained being a jedi their entire lives.

While Rey being gifted in the force is not a plot hole, her being equal to Ben who also trained his entire life and supposedly has the gift of being a descendant of the one (Anakin) should make him unparalleled only to Luke unless this is not the case. Yet Rey picks up a saber at 18 or 20 and can now use force mind tricks and go toe to toe with Ben who trained his entire life?

In reference, we know from PT that in terms of pure force potential, Anakin is unparalleled. The only reason why Obi Wan was able to beat him was because he knows Anakin the best (having trained him) and Anakin got cocky. While partly luck, Obi Wan's victory over Anakin was meant to be proof that training and experience can trump raw untrained talent. ST reversed this and Rey being a Palaptine/Kenobi/Skywalker/Windu/etc still wouldnt change why she suddenly knew how to use the force to that level. Hence plot hole.

I fully disagree that there was nowhere to go. I just think that the place to go was a place nobody was prepared to go, and that is...

...BEYOND THE LIMITS OF TRILOGIES......

Seriously, the story had plenty of places to go. Just not places where you could tie everything up with a bow and have the good guys win in a single movie in any manner that is convincing or satisfying. To do that, either you time-skip ahead, or you massively empower the good guys as a short cut to the longer build-up necessary to make it work. And hey, TROS did both! Yaaaaaaaaay....

But consider for a moment what the alternative could have been.

• The next film starts with Snoke dead, and Kylo Ren having been humiliated at the Battle of Krait (such as it was). Luke Skywalker's whereabouts remain unknown (at least to the wider galaxy), but the (New) Rebels have escaped. Meanwhile, the First Order seems triumphant, having all but completely eliminated any serious opposition to it...and yet, the spark of rebellion still flickers in the darkness.
• Kylo Ren seems to be in control, but having "killed the past," he now lacks direction for the future, and has to face down multiple attempts by his underlings to oust him, until he is finally thrown out by a council made up of the Knights of Ren, Gen. Hux, and several other high-ranking First Order characters. He's beaten badly and left for dead, stranded and on his own.
• Contrasted against Kylo Ren's fall is the gradual building up of the new Rebellion as they gather their forces and rebuild. Leia hands off leadership to the new heroes (Poe, Rey, Finn). The new film culminates with them securing a significant victory against the First Order that shows the New Rebellion is still alive and a force to be reckoned with, and which sets up...THE NEXT SEVERAL FILMS.
• Over the course of the next 2-3 films (OR HOWEVER MANY IS NEEDED TO TELL THE STORY EFFECTIVELY), the New Rebellion fights against the First Order, while the First Order suffers from having both "won" as well as its own infighting and power-plays. Where the New Rebellion is united and cooperative in its efforts, the First Order ruling council is made up of self-serving backstabbers just waiting for an opportunity to advance their own personal power, all with the goal of becoming a new emperor. Meanwhile, Ben Solo gradually rebuilds himself and serves as a kind of anti-hero, fighting the First Order, but not aligning with the New Rebellion. He basically undergoes a "face-turn" and sacrifices himself in the end to help the heroes achieve victory.
• Consistent themes are "evil always devours itself because it only knows how to destroy" vs. "good survives because people come together to keep it going." You could then take multiple films to build back up to a truly worthwhile finale, and -- best part of all -- NO PALPATINE!! Maybe you could have, say, Palpatine's DNA be some macguffin at some point (or I guess his "midichlorians" or whatever), but it's all just a macguffin and not him as the final boss villain, which was incredibly lame and myopic. You could also explore a new Jedi order that isn't anything like the old one. More tied into emotion rather than shunning it.

Thing is, you absolutely can't do any of this in a single film to wrap up a trilogy. It'd take multiple films, but you could tell a good story. But no, they wanted a cookie-cutter "just like we did it before because that's how we did it before" approach, and we got what we got.

Wouldnt say this is a hot take and agree. While split into trilogies, Lucas himself sees the trilogy as a single film in chapters. Or hell, start a new "trilogy" after ST if you need to follow the format. Instead of Rey and the good guys winning, have the ST actually be about the rise of a new Empire under Ben. While being a pathetic manchild and constantly losing, he surprises the audience with a victory over Rey and ushering in a new iron fist over the galaxy, making the ST the story of Ben and his fall/rise to power. Go into the next "trilogy" or how many ever movies to delve into the conflict.

This would require Rey to eat humble pie though so I knew Disney wouldnt have the guts to even hint at this direction.

One other point I wanted to make:

It's not a plot hole that Rey is incredibly strong. She could just be a "vergence" in the Force, which is addressed in other Star Wars media (which remains canon, I should note). She doesn't need to have a powerful bloodline.

The "mystery" around her parentage never made sense anyway. It would be a "mystery" to the audience, but not to Rey. She knows who her parents are, or at least who they were to her. Retconning her into a Palpatine was just beyond stupid. There are more than two families strong in the Force in Star Wars, but you wouldn't know it to watch TROS.

Regardless, what matters for viewers and for the character is not "Where do her powers come from?" but rather "What choices does she make and for what purposes does she use them?" Rey's a Palpatine! Rey's a Kenobi! Rey's a Skywalker! Rey's a rando! Rey's a vergence! Rey's a clone of an ancient Jedi master! Does any of it matter? No. That's the point of TLJ. Rey's parentage is a distraction and is meaningless to the story. What Rey does with her power is all that matters.

Its kind of implied Rey needs to have a powerful bloodline or be some force anomaly because she is fighting a Skywalker and its strongly implied, if not outright stated, that for the Skywalkers at least they are all powerfully gifted in their force due to ancestor Anakin. Luke is the "chosen one" to take down Vader because only he has the raw potential to. Even as other jedi who are far better trained crawl out of the wood work, Yoda and Obi Wan still believe only Luke or Leia have the potential to defeat Vader and no other jedi can due to their raw potential in the force. Unless grandkids dont get that same benefit (Ben), Rey's potential needs to be explained in some form, especially since she is also some rando who didnt even know about the force but can suddenly whip out force powers even Luke needed training to pull off.

Having her be a new anomaly that emerged because the previous one (Vader) died without fulfilling his mission of eradicating the Sith would have also been a decent explanation but we get no, Rey is just some rando with negligent parents. She is just good with the force because yay main character.

 

[blewis17]

Disney (and Hollywood in general) needs to go on a crash diet and figure out how to do movies on a lean budget. Then days of $200+ million productions plus $100 million in advertising should be over.

I'll bet dollars to donuts there's enough talent here at TheRPF that WE could do a feature length theater worthy Star Wars film (with talented actors, a solid screenplay and script, limited location shoots, practical ships/models/effects and costumes, mixed with digital CG, set work and compositing, and musical score) for well under $100 million.

 

[mattycsi]

Disney (and Hollywood in general) needs to go on a crash diet and figure out how to do movies on a lean budget. Then days of $200+ million productions plus $100 million in advertising should be over.

I'll bet dollars to donuts there's enough talent here at TheRPF that WE could do a feature length theater worthy Star Wars film (with talented actors, a solid screenplay and script, limited location shoots, practical ships/models/effects and costumes, mixed with digital CG, set work and compositing, and musical score) for well under $100 million.

 

[VanPersie]

Mace Windu is a jedi master sitting on the council next to Yoda and is pretty much the second in command to Yoda given he is one of the few that actually speaks. We can assume from context that he is second to Yoda and is pretty freaking strong.

Yes but knowing that doesn’t answer the question of why Mace was so powerful (I’m not actually asking) Was his family history full of powerful Force sensitives, or was he simply born able to be that powerful… Truth is, we just accept that he was without knowing that.

Now as I explicitly said, they handled it very badly with Rey. The other Jedi characters like Mace, did have that context of having been in the order for decades and trained.

They should have made a genuine struggle for her to overcome, couple an innate ability/strength with some training, and in the beginning decided whether it was important that she inherited it all, or just like the overwhelming majority of Jedi we’ve ever seen in the films/cartoons, you can just be born that way.

 

[HeartBlade]

Disney (and Hollywood in general) needs to go on a crash diet and figure out how to do movies on a lean budget. Then days of $200+ million productions plus $100 million in advertising should be over.

I'll bet dollars to donuts there's enough talent here at TheRPF that WE could do a feature length theater worthy Star Wars film (with talented actors, a solid screenplay and script, limited location shoots, practical ships/models/effects and costumes, mixed with digital CG, set work and compositing, and musical score) for well under $100 million.

Problem is using the RPF, you have a team of dedicated fans that will argue about the lore and nitpick the props and sets to be as accurate to the Star Wars-verse as possible, dedicating their time, sweat, and tears into making an exciting story. You cant expect that from corporate Disney, just consume product and wait for more product lol.

Previous point was pure sarcasm. Yeah, I would like to see a trilogy planned out and created by the RPF but lack of money and pending lawsuits from Disney will likely shut it down.

Yes but knowing that doesn’t answer the question of why Mace was so powerful (I’m not actually asking) Was his family history full of powerful Force sensitives, or was he simply born able to be that powerful… Truth is, we just accept that he was without knowing that.

Now as I explicitly said, they handled it very badly with Rey. The other Jedi characters like Mace, did have that context of having been in the order for decades and trained.

They should have made a genuine struggle for her to overcome, couple an innate ability/strength with some training, and in the beginning decided whether it was important that she inherited it all, or just like the overwhelming majority of Jedi we’ve ever seen in the films/cartoons, you can just be born that way.

We "accept" that they are powerful because we are given enough backstory to do so and we dont see any unusual activities from them. We also dont need to care about lineage because we know that jedi arnt allowed to love/marry and have children so the question of lineage and bloodlines is kind of moot which is also why Luke and Leia are special. They are the first (barring books and games) offspring we see of jedi and they are both also powerful in the force which implies that offspring of strong jedi also are going to be able to use the force.

None of this would really be an issue if Rey was like Luke. She could sense the force and get some feeling but her "win" over Ben is pure luck (or she doesnt win, just escapes) and only escapes Starkiller base with the help of Han and Finn (so no sudden proficiency in the force). Then, her backstory has no importance and she can truly be nobody because the only question is who is she now/who will she become.

But since she already starts off as a level 40 jedi able to face off with Kylo Ren rather than a realistic lv 1 noob, we the audience need some explanation for that initial level up which only comes from her past, hence why its so important. You can place the blame on Abrams for the bad set up, Johnson for the bad answer, or Kennedy for not planning things out properly but its still bad writing.

 

[batguy]

Disney (and Hollywood in general) needs to go on a crash diet and figure out how to do movies on a lean budget. Then days of $200+ million productions plus $100 million in advertising should be over.

I'll bet dollars to donuts there's enough talent here at TheRPF that WE could do a feature length theater worthy Star Wars film (with talented actors, a solid screenplay and script, limited location shoots, practical ships/models/effects and costumes, mixed with digital CG, set work and compositing, and musical score) for well under $100 million.

There's no question that the budgets have gotten stupid. But IMO it won't work to focus on that too much directly. Movie producers are upper managers like any other. Demand budget cuts and they are liable to aim for all the wrong places. The big star actors will still get $20m paychecks while the overworked CGI contractors will get cut down another few thousand bucks. Etc.

IMO the studios need to take a top-down approach and start putting higher-caliber people in control of these projects in the first place. They need to come to grips with the terrible truth: It's the 21st century. There is a glut of content and everybody can choose exactly what they want to watch. That means you have to make exactly what they want to watch. There is far less demand for mediocrity than there used to be. It's a tectonic shift and I don't think the old bigwigs in control of the industry are understanding the enormity of it.


There are issues beyond the production too. I don't know where the hell a lot of these advertising budgets are going. I will see a hit TV show advertising its "final season" and I've never even heard of it before. Something is wrong with that picture. IMO they need to get a lot better at reaching & targeting people who don't watch much channel & streaming TV as a baseline.

The push to eliminate physical media is another foolish pursuit. I'm not gonna pay monthly fees forever just to have access to a few favorite shows. If I can't buy them in some permanent form then I'm not buying.

 

[greenmachines]

Let's face it. These movies were written for the Harry Potter generation. Around this same time, nearly every movie was about "The Chosen One", the "natural", gifted from birth, no effort given, none needed, just born with innate skill and power. It is every loser's dream. It is the draw behind wizard movies, is the reason Disney kids shows constantly push witchcraft/wizardry, especially any about instant power or instant skill. Rey might as well have "drank the potion", read the book of knowledge, touched the stone of power or held the infinity stone (and not died). That formula of instant power and the thrill of instantaneous butt whooping skill is what drove nearly every Marvel film and is the only formula driving the current ones. Now the already powerful get to be jealous about the newly powerful and suddenly its a drama about popularity because now we all have power. Sadly, it is the same story that leads losers to harm others in real life, the lust for power over others.

Oh forgot to add technomancy, the instant ability to understand and use all tevh and every technique without learning/training. Instant pilot, race car driver..........

 

[VanPersie]

But since she already starts off as a level 40 jedi able to face off with Kylo Ren rather than a realistic lv 1 noob, we the audience need some explanation for that initial level up which only comes from her past, hence why its so important. You can place the blame on Abrams for the bad set up, Johnson for the bad answer, or Kennedy for not planning things out properly but its still bad writing.

Where did I suggest otherwise?...

Let's face it. These movies were written for the Harry Potter generation. Around this same time, nearly every movie was about "The Chosen One", the "natural", gifted from birth, no effort given, none needed, just born with innate skill and power. It is every loser's dream. It is the draw behind wizard movies, is the reason Disney kids shows constantly push witchcraft/wizardry, especially any about instant power or instant skill. Rey might as well have "drank the potion", read the book of knowledge, touched the stone of power or held the infinity stone (and not died). That formula of instant power and the thrill of instantaneous butt whooping skill is what drove nearly every Marvel film and is the only formula driving the current ones. Now the already powerful get to be jealous about the newly powerful and suddenly its a drama about popularity because now we all have power. Sadly, it is the same story that leads losers to harm others in real life, the lust for power over others.

Oh forgot to add technomancy, the instant ability to understand and use all tevh and every technique without learning/training. Instant pilot, race car driver..........

Except Harry Potter as a character did have to learn, suffered a lot of setbacks/pain/loss, and in the end did not prevail simply because he was a more powerful wizard. Plus the "Chosen one" aspect in Harry Potter was explicitly pointed out that it was generally the actions of Voldemort that created the conditions for his own loss, not that Harry specifically was foretold to be born to be it.

Not really just a Marvel thing or even just a modern idea. We as a species has have those tales ranging from Heracles in Ancient Greek states, to Þor in Old Norse religion. Modern comic book heroes (now translated into film/tv) are just a different version of old pagan myth characters.

 

[HeartBlade]

Where did I suggest otherwise?...

By denying her past is important to telling her story. If she was some mentor to the main character, her being skilled is a given and we dont need to delve into why she is so strong. Given that she is the main character and past precedent shows the importance of training for any Jedi or Sith, her competence in both the use of the force and her relative skills with a saber (still undefeated) need some explaining which can only be done by delving into her past. Explaining who her parents were (hidden jedi who trained her before dying and leaving her alone and having an affinity to a bloodline that made her unusually strong) is needed. Wouldnt necessarily say its sufficient but better than she is some nobody that randomly became uber powerful.

Let's face it. These movies were written for the Harry Potter generation. Around this same time, nearly every movie was about "The Chosen One", the "natural", gifted from birth, no effort given, none needed, just born with innate skill and power. It is every loser's dream. It is the draw behind wizard movies, is the reason Disney kids shows constantly push witchcraft/wizardry, especially any about instant power or instant skill. Rey might as well have "drank the potion", read the book of knowledge, touched the stone of power or held the infinity stone (and not died). That formula of instant power and the thrill of instantaneous butt whooping skill is what drove nearly every Marvel film and is the only formula driving the current ones. Now the already powerful get to be jealous about the newly powerful and suddenly its a drama about popularity because now we all have power. Sadly, it is the same story that leads losers to harm others in real life, the lust for power over others.

The concept of the chosen one is not new and most "chosen one" stories have the character being pathetic in most aspects except for having the gift of "destiny" or some inner power that gives them an edge. The story usually then follows the character having to train to properly use that power and defeat the big bad who is some seemingly omnipotent enemy. Harry had to learn how to be a competent wizard and was always dwarfed by Voldermort in terms of power and skill. Hell, even early Marvel had the characters train and "evolve" through the movie (Iron man building the armor, testing and learning how to fly it for example)

What has become a modern concept is "main character syndrome." The main character is already OP from the beginning with the training already done as backstory or, even worse, no training at all. This has happened in manga (Sword Art Online, One Punch Man) to movies (Captain Marvel, Rey). Combining the chosen one concept with no training or defeat results in minimal character growth or conflict.

 

[VanPersie]

By denying her past is important to telling her story. If she was some mentor to the main character, her being skilled is a given and we dont need to delve into why she is so strong. Given that she is the main character and past precedent shows the importance of training for any Jedi or Sith, her competence in both the use of the force and her relative skills with a saber (still undefeated) need some explaining which can only be done by delving into her past. Explaining who her parents were (hidden jedi who trained her before dying and leaving her alone and having an affinity to a bloodline that made her unusually strong) is needed. Wouldnt necessarily say its sufficient but better than she is some nobody that randomly became uber powerful.


The concept of the chosen one is not new and most "chosen one" stories have the character being pathetic in most aspects except for having the gift of "destiny" or some inner power that gives them an edge. The story usually then follows the character having to train to properly use that power and defeat the big bad who is some seemingly omnipotent enemy. Harry had to learn how to be a competent wizard and was always dwarfed by Voldermort in terms of power and skill. Hell, even early Marvel had the characters train and "evolve" through the movie (Iron man building the armor, testing and learning how to fly it for example)

What has become a modern concept is "main character syndrome." The main character is already OP from the beginning with the training already done as backstory or, even worse, no training at all. This has happened in manga (Sword Art Online, One Punch Man) to movies (Captain Marvel, Rey). Combining the chosen one concept with no training or defeat results in minimal character growth or conflict.

Again it seems you misunderstand what I actually wrote, so i’m going to bow out rather than go in tedious circles.

 

[greenmachines]

By denying her past is important to telling her story. If she was some mentor to the main character, her being skilled is a given and we dont need to delve into why she is so strong. Given that she is the main character and past precedent shows the importance of training for any Jedi or Sith, her competence in both the use of the force and her relative skills with a saber (still undefeated) need some explaining which can only be done by delving into her past. Explaining who her parents were (hidden jedi who trained her before dying and leaving her alone and having an affinity to a bloodline that made her unusually strong) is needed. Wouldnt necessarily say its sufficient but better than she is some nobody that randomly became uber powerful.


The concept of the chosen one is not new and most "chosen one" stories have the character being pathetic in most aspects except for having the gift of "destiny" or some inner power that gives them an edge. The story usually then follows the character having to train to properly use that power and defeat the big bad who is some seemingly omnipotent enemy. Harry had to learn how to be a competent wizard and was always dwarfed by Voldermort in terms of power and skill. Hell, even early Marvel had the characters train and "evolve" through the movie (Iron man building the armor, testing and learning how to fly it for example)

What has become a modern concept is "main character syndrome." The main character is already OP from the beginning with the training already done as backstory or, even worse, no training at all. This has happened in manga (Sword Art Online, One Punch Man) to movies (Captain Marvel, Rey). Combining the chosen one concept with no training or defeat results in minimal character growth or conflict.

Definitely not my focus on "the chosen one". I apologize as that does have a completely different conotation when the chosen one is about fulfilling a destiny or prediction. I mean specifically the idea of being gifted or talented from birth with no effort put forth. I have met people who's whole identity was wrapped up in something they were gifted in but did nothing with it and everyone else surpassed them through training and education. The instant gratification element or the line "wow, how did you do that???!!" followed by the hero character saying "I don't know. I just can." I would much rather have the expert or senior character be the leader, not another story about waking up one day with the power to do magic.

Even George Lucas knew this and he studied all the historic hero myths before writing. His Anakin (sorry that he is also labeled chosen, not my point) character has too much power freely and fails because of it, not a happy ending. But Rey comes along, has this same story in spades but now the story is for a different audience, one that wants power over others to be a good thing. The literal fulfillment of Anakin's own cringeworthy and notably incorrect surmise that an all powerful ruler would be wise and kind (remember the meadow scene with Padme) . How do you say that in one film, making clear reference to Anakin being completely wrong in his statement but then give Rey not only immediate untrained power and talent but she suddenly is PUT IN CHARGE???!!??? Because of what leadership ability? Here are the keys to the Falcon, remember to feed Chewy now and again as he can't really make life decisions on his own.

 

[Solo4114]

By denying her past is important to telling her story. If she was some mentor to the main character, her being skilled is a given and we dont need to delve into why she is so strong. Given that she is the main character and past precedent shows the importance of training for any Jedi or Sith, her competence in both the use of the force and her relative skills with a saber (still undefeated) need some explaining which can only be done by delving into her past. Explaining who her parents were (hidden jedi who trained her before dying and leaving her alone and having an affinity to a bloodline that made her unusually strong) is needed. Wouldnt necessarily say its sufficient but better than she is some nobody that randomly became uber powerful.

Here's the thing. Her past isn't important as it was used in the trilogy.

Rey's past is crass audience manipulation. It's withholding information from the audience for the purpose of getting the audience to speculate about it. Classic "mystery box" design. And it's utter bulls**t. It's not storytelling. It's meta-narrative audience manipulation. Fundamentally, it works on the same level as having Benedict Cumberbatch announce himself as Khan in Star Trek: Into Darkness.

These things are meaningful to the audience, but -- as depicted in the film -- they are not meaningful to the characters nor are they meaningful for the story.

That's not to say that you can't have these kinds of revelations or questions or moments or whathaveyou be built organically into the story so that they do mean something. But the way in which they're built into these films is fundamentally lazy audience manipulation. They don't earn their importance on their own; they only earn it because the audience is primed to expect it for reasons that have sod all to do with the actual narrative itself.

When Cumberbatch says "I'm KHAN!" the audience is meant to gasp in realization. But Kirk, Spock, & co. haven't encountered him. He might be significant for having been from a history book they knew about, but they have no personal connection to him. It's the audience that has the personal connection, because they watched another movie where he was a badass, so now they know to expect this Khan to be a badass too. Not because of anything the story has told us. Just because of what we, as audience members, already bring to the table. So, we end up doing the heavy lifting of story telling and filling in the blanks for ourselves, and the film itself just breezes right the **** past it as if the film told us what we needed to know.

But it didn't. That's the trick. The film just had to say the name Khan, and the audience did the rest of the work for it. The story didn't do anything to lay any groundwork for that.

With Rey's parentage, it's all presented as a mystery to the audience. In TFA, we have no reason to expect that Rey doesn't know who her parents were or what they looked like. Or at least who they were to her. Instead, we get snippets of Jim Henson's Rey Babies screaming "Come back!" as a ship flies off, and we're left to wonder "COULD REY'S PARENTS BE WHY SHE'S SO STRONG WITH THE FORCE?!?!?!!1!!?" The film does other stuff to seed this "mystery" too, by having her be extremely competent at lots of different things all at once. That's not because she's a "Mary Sue," though. It's because the film is just ****ing lazy about its storytelling, OR -- worse -- it's trying to get you wondering "But how? How is she so powerful? What's it all about? WHAT'S THE MYSTERY?!!"

Except none of that crap matters for the story itself. It matters for the audience to make sense of its world, but in terms of what actually happens in the story, you could take 2 seconds and say "Rey's a vergence" or "Rey's a Kenobi" or "Rey's the physical embodiment of the good side of who Anakin Skywalker was" or whatever, and it still wouldn't matter. What matters for the story is what she does. The story isn't concerned with Rey's parentage. The story is concerned with her actions and choices. It's those things that propel the story, it's those things that actually matter to the narrative. Rey's parentage is barely used within the story itself because it doesn't ****ing matter. We get a little bit in TROS but it's just thrown in to answer the question the films posed for the audience back in TFA. The answer doesn't really matter to Rey.

And that's because the films do nothing to make that answer meaningful within the narrative. When we meet Rey, who her parents are doesn't matter to her. What matters to her is her sense of abandonment and that they might come back for her. That's why she thinks about staying on, or going back to, Jakku. And it's only when she lets go of "But they might come back..." that she starts to embrace being a hero, which JJ then immediately undercuts when she flies off to Ach-To and hands Sad Luke the sabre. "Yay! I'm the hero! Wait. Take this thing from me." That move, handing Luke the sabre, isn't the move of someone who has accepted her destiny and is now pursuing it. WITHIN THE FIRST FILM ITSELF, the story completely undercuts Rey's journey. And nowhere in that journey does "But hey, who were my parents, anyway?" come into play. Their identity isn't a crisis for Rey to resolve, it's not a hurdle for her to overcome, it doesn't cripple her emotionally, it doesn't do anything. It's just a question for the audience to mull over. And otherwise, it doesn't matter.

Then take TLJ where Rey actually has a half a tic where she wonders who her parents are. But even then, the identity of the parents is secondary to why she's asking in the first place. TLJ accepts the premise that JJ laid out in TFA: Rey has apparently rejected the mantle of hero, and the responsibility that goes with it, and has turned to Luke to say "You do it. I can't do it myself." When Rey is asking for her parents' identity, what she's really asking for is for someone or something else to tell her what to do and how to proceed. Luke wouldn't do it, so she asks the cave, which also doesn't tell her.

This also sits in terrific contrast with Ben/Kylo Ren, who wants to escape the very-known, very-weighty parentage and obligations that come with it, as he wants to "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to." He wants to be unburdened of the past, of his family, of the destiny that's laid before him and which denies him the choices he wants to make. And meanwhile, Rey actively wants that, again as a means of avoiding taking responsibility for her own actions. And you get the sense that even if Ben did destroy the past, he'd have....no friggin' idea what to do, because all he could think to do was to just take the reflexively opposite path from what his "destiny" said he was "supposed" to do. In that sense "Who are your parents/what is your bloodline" matters in TLJ.

But you know what doesn't matter? The answer to the question "Who are my parents?" that Rey asks.

That question was always purely for the audience. It's not really part of the story itself. That's why it doesn't matter. Not because that question is never important, but because the films never made it important to the story or the characters the way it was to the audience.

 

[batguy]

Solo, you're right, but I can't muster up much interest in the whole issue. The ST story didn't have a valid backbone to start with.

JJA initially left Rey's parentage open/implied because he's not in the business of finishing stories he starts. He eats his morning cornflakes out of a mystery box.

RJ decided her parents were nobodies because his ethos was 'defy expectations even if Luke has to milk a space cow.'

JJA reinstated Rey's family history in the last movie because he was painted into a corner. She had spent the whole trilogy having Force-visions and whupping Darth Vader Jr with a lightsaber. By that stage it needed an explanation.

 

[pengbuzz]

Definitely not my focus on "the chosen one". I apologize as that does have a completely different conotation when the chosen one is about fulfilling a destiny or prediction. I mean specifically the idea of being gifted or talented from birth with no effort put forth. I have met people who's whole identity was wrapped up in something they were gifted in but did nothing with it and everyone else surpassed them through training and education. The instant gratification element or the line "wow, how did you do that???!!" followed by the hero character saying "I don't know. I just can." I would much rather have the expert or senior character be the leader, not another story about waking up one day with the power to do magic.

Even George Lucas knew this and he studied all the historic hero myths before writing. His Anakin (sorry that he is also labeled chosen, not my point) character has too much power freely and fails because of it, not a happy ending. But Rey comes along, has this same story in spades but now the story is for a different audience, one that wants power over others to be a good thing. The literal fulfillment of Anakin's own cringeworthy and notably incorrect surmise that an all powerful ruler would be wise and kind (remember the meadow scene with Padme) . How do you say that in one film, making clear reference to Anakin being completely wrong in his statement but then give Rey not only immediate untrained power and talent but she suddenly is PUT IN CHARGE???!!??? Because of what leadership ability? Here are the keys to the Falcon, remember to feed Chewy now and again as he can't really make life decisions on his own.

Two words: unearned ability.