VIDEO: How Bad Movies are Made / Rise of Skywalker

blewis17

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
IMO this is a well done look at the whys and hows of the "assembling" of Rise of Skywalker, to explain what we got. Some good insights overall; the creator integrates quotes, dates, changes in the production team, time table(s), and SW lore and original concepts so you can see "how" it happened.

 
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IMO the post-mortems on bad movies are sometimes more interesting than the movie itself.

It's particularly true with big movies like this. The cause of the suckage is typically a complex bunch of factors.

On the other hand if 'Alien Ninja 4' sucks, the explanation probably won't be very interesting: "The producer snorted half the budget up his nose and the rest of us knew it was garbage anyway."
 
Well. it really builds on itself layer by layer to make its point(s). And there is a LOT to cover. So it's hard to summarize... but maybe I can time stamp some key areas for the quick and dirty.

IN GENERAL:

1) There was MUCH LESS TIME for preproduction and filming. As such, filming style shots/ cinematography was simplified to facilitate editing.

2) There seemed to be points where they weren't sure which way the story would go; the movie was edited so the could change it when /if they made up their mind.

3) There were post production reshoots/additions, but this is common with many films and they do NOT go into test screenings/complete third at changes/etc.

4) There were points that many of us thought were last minute additions, that were actually in place some time prior


1:01:50- 1:02:22, explaining how Palpatine and Pride's relationship is just the bad guy serving the big bad guy in secret... so what?

1:02:23- 1:03:40 , explaining the redundant information dumps that are... redundant

1:03:44-1:04:44, examining the reshoots and dialogue changes between Luke and Rey

1:16:25 - 1:18 (end)
The summary of how thousands of people, all working really hard, can still put out a sub-par product.
 
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A little lengthy. But well worth the time. I broke it up and watched it in about 4 different sections. Very well done and informative. The speculation behind the dumping of Trevorrow and the bringing back of JJ is fascinating. I always like a good look behind the scenes.
 
Besides the B.S. that a film crew/cast has to go through (including Director) it's that too many people have their hands in the cookie jar.
The "Too big to fail" doesn't apply anymore. :rolleyes:
 
The video goes into more detail and explains something I had not fleshed out in my own mind. I do like the take in TROS that with the Sith "Rule of Two" (where the apprentice would eventually kill their master thus indicating the apprentice had learned enough to move beyond their training so that only the stronger survives)... this was ACTUALLY a secret plot only known to the Master.... by killing the Master, the apprentice would inherit the spirit of all previous Sith Lord Masters and hence the Master would "live on."

But that indicates that the Palpatine entity goes back thousands of years (by different names, of course).

And conflicts with the fact that, when Rey finally killed Palpatine, she didn't become the new reigning Sith (maybe because "all of the Jedi" were helping her?)
 
I disagree about there being nowhere to go. There was nowhere to go for someone like Abrams, which is a different matter.
 
I disagree about there being nowhere to go. There was nowhere to go for someone like Abrams, which is a different matter.
No, I agree that there really wasnt much to go on. Sure, Johnson was adventurous with Star Wars and did go nerdy by referencing Star Wars EU stuff (which was decanonized so saying the fans were stupid for not knowing it honestly didnt work) but as part of a trilogy movie, TLJ does not work.

It is also the fault of TFA which is made in the patented Abrams "mystery box" formula where Abrams doesnt have answers and chose to let the next guy give good answers (or take the blame if the answers were bad).

Now, making a good "middle" movie is hard because the the role of the movie is to really build up the tension without having a satisfying climax. John would need to shoot scenes like the "all is lost" moment, the victory of the villains over the heroes, and show the heroes in a bind but not get the satisfying payoff of seeing those story threads resolved. I do think Johnson was put in a bad situation where he basically is in charge of creating a compelling narrative but wont be rewarded for executing it well (place the blame on Kennedy here for the stupid a new director for each movie with no plan).

Johnson didnt do a great job with the handoff though. He killed off Snoke who was the big bad Emperor equivalent which forces Ben to become the big bad, removed Rey's storylines with the reveal that she is a rando (also making a plot hole in why she is so strong with the force and knows advanced force powers pre-training, parents mystery, Obi wans voice and why youngling killer 3000 called out to her), removed tension in the final battle by having Rey beat Kylo again, and also put the resistance in the awkward position of having been decimated. The story would have to be the resistance goes around recruiting to then face off against the First Order one last time. We know Rey is going to win because she was won consistently (and force dyad means Ben and Rey will always be the same level of power + Rey is a good guy and isnt losing in the final battle). Its why "Palpatine came back somehow" was necessary.
 
I
No, I agree that there really wasnt much to go on. Sure, Johnson was adventurous with Star Wars and did go nerdy by referencing Star Wars EU stuff (which was decanonized so saying the fans were stupid for not knowing it honestly didnt work) but as part of a trilogy movie, TLJ does not work.

It is also the fault of TFA which is made in the patented Abrams "mystery box" formula where Abrams doesnt have answers and chose to let the next guy give good answers (or take the blame if the answers were bad).

Now, making a good "middle" movie is hard because the the role of the movie is to really build up the tension without having a satisfying climax. John would need to shoot scenes like the "all is lost" moment, the victory of the villains over the heroes, and show the heroes in a bind but not get the satisfying payoff of seeing those story threads resolved. I do think Johnson was put in a bad situation where he basically is in charge of creating a compelling narrative but wont be rewarded for executing it well (place the blame on Kennedy here for the stupid a new director for each movie with no plan).

Johnson didnt do a great job with the handoff though. He killed off Snoke who was the big bad Emperor equivalent which forces Ben to become the big bad, removed Rey's storylines with the reveal that she is a rando (also making a plot hole in why she is so strong with the force and knows advanced force powers pre-training, parents mystery, Obi wans voice and why youngling killer 3000 called out to her), removed tension in the final battle by having Rey beat Kylo again, and also put the resistance in the awkward position of having been decimated. The story would have to be the resistance goes around recruiting to then face off against the First Order one last time. We know Rey is going to win because she was won consistently (and force dyad means Ben and Rey will always be the same level of power + Rey is a good guy and isnt losing in the final battle). Its why "Palpatine came back somehow" was necessary.
I don’t think making her a nobody is a plot hole as to why she was so strong. I mean, we have no idea why Mace, Kenobi, Dooku, Jinn et al were powerful in the Force. Only really Anakin, Leia, Ben Solo and Luke is ever answered as to why they are.

How they handled how she used the powers etc was very poorly done though.
 
TROS simply had no where to go after Ep8. If I'd seen that and was expected to follow it I'd have walked like Treverow. Really can't blame him.

This.

Ep#8 was done as a standalone movie. You can't do that and expect a trilogy to work.

Johnson should have known better and Kennedy should not have allowed it.

I disagree about there being nowhere to go. There was nowhere to go for someone like Abrams, which is a different matter.

No, I agree that there really wasnt much to go on. Sure, Johnson was adventurous with Star Wars and did go nerdy by referencing Star Wars EU stuff (which was decanonized so saying the fans were stupid for not knowing it honestly didnt work) but as part of a trilogy movie, TLJ does not work.

It is also the fault of TFA which is made in the patented Abrams "mystery box" formula where Abrams doesnt have answers and chose to let the next guy give good answers (or take the blame if the answers were bad).

Now, making a good "middle" movie is hard because the the role of the movie is to really build up the tension without having a satisfying climax. John would need to shoot scenes like the "all is lost" moment, the victory of the villains over the heroes, and show the heroes in a bind but not get the satisfying payoff of seeing those story threads resolved. I do think Johnson was put in a bad situation where he basically is in charge of creating a compelling narrative but wont be rewarded for executing it well (place the blame on Kennedy here for the stupid a new director for each movie with no plan).

Johnson didnt do a great job with the handoff though. He killed off Snoke who was the big bad Emperor equivalent which forces Ben to become the big bad, removed Rey's storylines with the reveal that she is a rando (also making a plot hole in why she is so strong with the force and knows advanced force powers pre-training, parents mystery, Obi wans voice and why youngling killer 3000 called out to her), removed tension in the final battle by having Rey beat Kylo again, and also put the resistance in the awkward position of having been decimated. The story would have to be the resistance goes around recruiting to then face off against the First Order one last time. We know Rey is going to win because she was won consistently (and force dyad means Ben and Rey will always be the same level of power + Rey is a good guy and isnt losing in the final battle). Its why "Palpatine came back somehow" was necessary.
I fully disagree that there was nowhere to go. I just think that the place to go was a place nobody was prepared to go, and that is...

...BEYOND THE LIMITS OF TRILOGIES......

Seriously, the story had plenty of places to go. Just not places where you could tie everything up with a bow and have the good guys win in a single movie in any manner that is convincing or satisfying. To do that, either you time-skip ahead, or you massively empower the good guys as a short cut to the longer build-up necessary to make it work. And hey, TROS did both! Yaaaaaaaaay....

But consider for a moment what the alternative could have been.

  • The next film starts with Snoke dead, and Kylo Ren having been humiliated at the Battle of Krait (such as it was). Luke Skywalker's whereabouts remain unknown (at least to the wider galaxy), but the (New) Rebels have escaped. Meanwhile, the First Order seems triumphant, having all but completely eliminated any serious opposition to it...and yet, the spark of rebellion still flickers in the darkness.
  • Kylo Ren seems to be in control, but having "killed the past," he now lacks direction for the future, and has to face down multiple attempts by his underlings to oust him, until he is finally thrown out by a council made up of the Knights of Ren, Gen. Hux, and several other high-ranking First Order characters. He's beaten badly and left for dead, stranded and on his own.
  • Contrasted against Kylo Ren's fall is the gradual building up of the new Rebellion as they gather their forces and rebuild. Leia hands off leadership to the new heroes (Poe, Rey, Finn). The new film culminates with them securing a significant victory against the First Order that shows the New Rebellion is still alive and a force to be reckoned with, and which sets up...THE NEXT SEVERAL FILMS.
  • Over the course of the next 2-3 films (OR HOWEVER MANY IS NEEDED TO TELL THE STORY EFFECTIVELY), the New Rebellion fights against the First Order, while the First Order suffers from having both "won" as well as its own infighting and power-plays. Where the New Rebellion is united and cooperative in its efforts, the First Order ruling council is made up of self-serving backstabbers just waiting for an opportunity to advance their own personal power, all with the goal of becoming a new emperor. Meanwhile, Ben Solo gradually rebuilds himself and serves as a kind of anti-hero, fighting the First Order, but not aligning with the New Rebellion. He basically undergoes a "face-turn" and sacrifices himself in the end to help the heroes achieve victory.
  • Consistent themes are "evil always devours itself because it only knows how to destroy" vs. "good survives because people come together to keep it going." You could then take multiple films to build back up to a truly worthwhile finale, and -- best part of all -- NO PALPATINE!! Maybe you could have, say, Palpatine's DNA be some macguffin at some point (or I guess his "midichlorians" or whatever), but it's all just a macguffin and not him as the final boss villain, which was incredibly lame and myopic. You could also explore a new Jedi order that isn't anything like the old one. More tied into emotion rather than shunning it.
Thing is, you absolutely can't do any of this in a single film to wrap up a trilogy. It'd take multiple films, but you could tell a good story. But no, they wanted a cookie-cutter "just like we did it before because that's how we did it before" approach, and we got what we got.

One other point I wanted to make:

It's not a plot hole that Rey is incredibly strong. She could just be a "vergence" in the Force, which is addressed in other Star Wars media (which remains canon, I should note). She doesn't need to have a powerful bloodline.

The "mystery" around her parentage never made sense anyway. It would be a "mystery" to the audience, but not to Rey. She knows who her parents are, or at least who they were to her. Retconning her into a Palpatine was just beyond stupid. There are more than two families strong in the Force in Star Wars, but you wouldn't know it to watch TROS.

Regardless, what matters for viewers and for the character is not "Where do her powers come from?" but rather "What choices does she make and for what purposes does she use them?" Rey's a Palpatine! Rey's a Kenobi! Rey's a Skywalker! Rey's a rando! Rey's a vergence! Rey's a clone of an ancient Jedi master! Does any of it matter? No. That's the point of TLJ. Rey's parentage is a distraction and is meaningless to the story. What Rey does with her power is all that matters.
 
I fully disagree that there was nowhere to go. I just think that the place to go was a place nobody was prepared to go, and that is...

...BEYOND THE LIMITS OF TRILOGIES......

Seriously, the story had plenty of places to go. Just not places where you could tie everything up with a bow and have the good guys win in a single movie in any manner that is convincing or satisfying. To do that, either you time-skip ahead, or you massively empower the good guys as a short cut to the longer build-up necessary to make it work. And hey, TROS did both! Yaaaaaaaaay....

But consider for a moment what the alternative could have been.

  • The next film starts with Snoke dead, and Kylo Ren having been humiliated at the Battle of Krait (such as it was). Luke Skywalker's whereabouts remain unknown (at least to the wider galaxy), but the (New) Rebels have escaped. Meanwhile, the First Order seems triumphant, having all but completely eliminated any serious opposition to it...and yet, the spark of rebellion still flickers in the darkness.
  • Kylo Ren seems to be in control, but having "killed the past," he now lacks direction for the future, and has to face down multiple attempts by his underlings to oust him, until he is finally thrown out by a council made up of the Knights of Ren, Gen. Hux, and several other high-ranking First Order characters. He's beaten badly and left for dead, stranded and on his own.
  • Contrasted against Kylo Ren's fall is the gradual building up of the new Rebellion as they gather their forces and rebuild. Leia hands off leadership to the new heroes (Poe, Rey, Finn). The new film culminates with them securing a significant victory against the First Order that shows the New Rebellion is still alive and a force to be reckoned with, and which sets up...THE NEXT SEVERAL FILMS.
  • Over the course of the next 2-3 films (OR HOWEVER MANY IS NEEDED TO TELL THE STORY EFFECTIVELY), the New Rebellion fights against the First Order, while the First Order suffers from having both "won" as well as its own infighting and power-plays. Where the New Rebellion is united and cooperative in its efforts, the First Order ruling council is made up of self-serving backstabbers just waiting for an opportunity to advance their own personal power, all with the goal of becoming a new emperor. Meanwhile, Ben Solo gradually rebuilds himself and serves as a kind of anti-hero, fighting the First Order, but not aligning with the New Rebellion. He basically undergoes a "face-turn" and sacrifices himself in the end to help the heroes achieve victory.
  • Consistent themes are "evil always devours itself because it only knows how to destroy" vs. "good survives because people come together to keep it going." You could then take multiple films to build back up to a truly worthwhile finale, and -- best part of all -- NO PALPATINE!! Maybe you could have, say, Palpatine's DNA be some macguffin at some point (or I guess his "midichlorians" or whatever), but it's all just a macguffin and not him as the final boss villain, which was incredibly lame and myopic. You could also explore a new Jedi order that isn't anything like the old one. More tied into emotion rather than shunning it.
Thing is, you absolutely can't do any of this in a single film to wrap up a trilogy. It'd take multiple films, but you could tell a good story. But no, they wanted a cookie-cutter "just like we did it before because that's how we did it before" approach, and we got what we got.

One other point I wanted to make:

It's not a plot hole that Rey is incredibly strong. She could just be a "vergence" in the Force, which is addressed in other Star Wars media (which remains canon, I should note). She doesn't need to have a powerful bloodline.

The "mystery" around her parentage never made sense anyway. It would be a "mystery" to the audience, but not to Rey. She knows who her parents are, or at least who they were to her. Retconning her into a Palpatine was just beyond stupid. There are more than two families strong in the Force in Star Wars, but you wouldn't know it to watch TROS.

Regardless, what matters for viewers and for the character is not "Where do her powers come from?" but rather "What choices does she make and for what purposes does she use them?" Rey's a Palpatine! Rey's a Kenobi! Rey's a Skywalker! Rey's a rando! Rey's a vergence! Rey's a clone of an ancient Jedi master! Does any of it matter? No. That's the point of TLJ. Rey's parentage is a distraction and is meaningless to the story. What Rey does with her power is all that matters.
And thats my point really, TLJ left is so nothing would work in that one movie conclusion. Not convincingly.

Now, I think TLJ is particularly bad film, regardless of it being SW. But, I could probably have accepted it as the finale.
It wouldnt have been a favourite by any means but it could have closed the trilogy.
Luke's death would have made more sense at that point. Tweak it slightly to make the final victory bigger and set up for continuation trilogies. I'd probably still be watching. Other than Kenobi, I've not looked at SW since TROS and have no interest to either.
 
And thats my point really, TLJ left is so nothing would work in that one movie conclusion. Not convincingly.
Right. But then I think the trilogy format has always been a mistake. You can see it in both prior trilogies.

In the OT, bim bam boom, Luke's a full-fledged Jedi (with the exception of having to confront the Emperor), the Rebels blow up the Death Star, the Empire is defeated, everybody sing. We accept it because (1) we were kids, and (2) it was a fairy tale and that's how fairy tales end.

But then you get the PT, and it's like we're missing a whole movie. We go from Ani's Adventures in Spaaaaaaace to the start of the Clone Wars, then skip the war entirely and cut right to, like, the last 3 days of it. Anakin goes from hero to villain at the drop of a hat, and the whole Republic falls apart completely in the blink of an eye.

If you step back and look at these, neither of them are especially convincing endings. Again, ROTJ "works" while Star Wars is truly a space fairy tale. But by the time the PT rolls around, it isn't that anymore, and now everything just feels abrupt.

You definitely cannot do a trilogy if you don't have a VERY clear plan on beginning, middle, and end, and then stick to that. And I don't think they ever really had a story planned for the whole thing. Maybe some cool moments here or there, maybe the general "and then the bad guys are defeated" sense of things, but nobody bothered to break a story down. So, ok, fine. We're doing this more free-form? Handing off from director to director? No problem. Just don't expect to wrap it all up with a bow in 3 films. You can try, but it likely won't work.
Now, I think TLJ is particularly bad film, regardless of it being SW. But, I could probably have accepted it as the finale.
It wouldnt have been a favourite by any means but it could have closed the trilogy.
Luke's death would have made more sense at that point. Tweak it slightly to make the final victory bigger and set up for continuation trilogies. I'd probably still be watching. Other than Kenobi, I've not looked at SW since TROS and have no interest to either.
I think you could've ended one "trilogy" on that note, provided it was very clearly planned to immediately flow into another one (again, if you're gonna adhere to trilogies, which you shouldn't), but otherwise, I think it works fine as...just a chapter in the story as long as you don't impose artificial limitations on yourself for when the story ends before you know how the story ends.
 
Right. But then I think the trilogy format has always been a mistake. You can see it in both prior trilogies.

In the OT, bim bam boom, Luke's a full-fledged Jedi (with the exception of having to confront the Emperor), the Rebels blow up the Death Star, the Empire is defeated, everybody sing. We accept it because (1) we were kids, and (2) it was a fairy tale and that's how fairy tales end.

But then you get the PT, and it's like we're missing a whole movie. We go from Ani's Adventures in Spaaaaaaace to the start of the Clone Wars, then skip the war entirely and cut right to, like, the last 3 days of it. Anakin goes from hero to villain at the drop of a hat, and the whole Republic falls apart completely in the blink of an eye.

If you step back and look at these, neither of them are especially convincing endings. Again, ROTJ "works" while Star Wars is truly a space fairy tale. But by the time the PT rolls around, it isn't that anymore, and now everything just feels abrupt.

You definitely cannot do a trilogy if you don't have a VERY clear plan on beginning, middle, and end, and then stick to that. And I don't think they ever really had a story planned for the whole thing. Maybe some cool moments here or there, maybe the general "and then the bad guys are defeated" sense of things, but nobody bothered to break a story down. So, ok, fine. We're doing this more free-form? Handing off from director to director? No problem. Just don't expect to wrap it all up with a bow in 3 films. You can try, but it likely won't work.

I think you could've ended one "trilogy" on that note, provided it was very clearly planned to immediately flow into another one (again, if you're gonna adhere to trilogies, which you shouldn't), but otherwise, I think it works fine as...just a chapter in the story as long as you don't impose artificial limitations on yourself for when the story ends before you know how the story ends.
Good points, well made.
 

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