Vader cheek mark (c-scar)

[vaderdarth]

well said gromitfan.

 

[GINO]

With respect, there is absolutely no way the c-scar cheek in that photo of the original TM is not the original surface. It very much is the original surface with nothing covering it.
If you look at the area of the brow that shows what this additional resin looks like, you can clearly see that the cheek has nothing on it that even remotely resembles that resin.

Look at the area of the paint separation line on the nose bridge. Are you going to tell me that area is covered with resin as well? Don't be foolish.
That detail was added in just like the c-scar.

In addition, you can still see in both pics some of the same wrinkles etc.. which even further proves that is the original surface and not a resin covered surface.

You do not have to be a rocket scientist to see this.


First the argument was that these areas were photoshopped.
Now it's moved on to that they are magically filled with black resin.
Come on.


Let's just acknowledge the truth staring us in the face.
JRX/Jesper took it upon himself to add/remove details to this facemask in an effort to make it more accurate according to how he believed it should be.
Not in a deceptive way, but in a 'let me improve it' sort of way.

Now that everyone already has these details in their castings, no one wants to admit was has happened because they feel it would somehow lessen the integrity of their castings.
Don't worry, it won't. The TM is still awesome.
It's not the fault of the TM owners who believed it was part of the casting. They just didn't know what was done to it before they got it.
Can't we just come to consensus for once in the history of vader debates?

The fact that the original TM casting didn't have a dimensional c-scar blemish is a good thing. That even further speaks to it's integrity because the original screen used helmets (ANH-ROTJ) did not either.
JRX made a decision based on what he thought was right at the time. You can't fault the guy for that.
Better to just accept what happened than to continue making up unreasonable excuses for it.


.

 

[Art Andrews]

So, let me make sure I am understand what has transpired.

Over the past few days we have had vehement arguments like the ones quote below regarding the TM photo that Gino posted being photoshopped to the point of Gino being told he didn't know what he was talking about and was "less informed." All of this argument about photoshopping was posted as undeniable fact as to being the reason why the c-scar is not seen on those photos of the TM helmet.

Those photos were photoshoped by Jesper to remove that detail. Nice try though. You have no idea what you are talking about, I suggest you stop before you make yourself look less informed than you already are.

The pic he posted is photoshoped and without all the details on this lid. There were shown many detailed pics before and they were ignored by some of you because they dont want to see anything.

Still the C-sar area looks a lot like photoshop work to me.

And then, TM posted this.

This image is NOT photoshopped.

And from there, without missing a beat, without apology, and without any explanation those same people who were arguing the photoshop 'fact' have suddenly done a 180 and changed their argument from "we know for a fact those photos are photoshopped to hide the c-scar" to "we know there was a piece of black resin covering the c-scar in those photos that later was picked away." Am I correct in that understanding this seamless flip-flop from the self-proclaimed Vader experts or am I missing something? Perhaps you guys need to join John Kyl.

Jon Kyl Tweets Not Intended to Be Factual Statements - The Colbert Report - 4/12/11 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

 

[CSMacLaren]

Well, Art, at least now we know which side of the argument you're on!

In the days waiting eagerly for our TM helmets to arrive, we were entreated to dozens and dozens of photos over the course of time. The C-scar came as a surprise to some of us because we saw the same images Gino is posting. I remember my phone call over Skype to Jesper to ask him about it, and his own words that they were photoshopped out because he didn't want this level of detail falling into the wrong hands.

We've since seen SPFX take TM information and factor it into his ESB product, so there is clear that posting quality images will benefit the wrong person who turns it into a prestige boost and financial gain.

I was asked once by Jesper to remove a C-scar from one of the images I was using for informative purposes. I don't recall which photo specifically as it was 3 years ago. Part of the agreement we were bound to by Jesper was to not reveal the true nature of the C-scar. Again, not to attack Gino, and I'm glad he was cordial towards Tom, but Jesper specifically did not want Gino to know this information. As he has been a long time bully of the community with his supposed knowledge, this would have given him one more thing to bully people with. I agreed and abided by Jesper's policy.

As a TM owner, I had no reason to believe that Jesper was lying to me when he told me details were photoshopped out. But also, for the record, I came into this hobby when it was already highly polarized by politics and bickering, with a lot of cyberbullying already taking place. Tom Mullack took pity on me being misled by Vader vendors and bullied by certain personalities, and contacted me to see if i wanted a TM casting, and that turned things around for me as well as several others. It took power away from the personalities and into the hands of the little people. But I think Jesper's policies to have us keep things secret were too strong, as obviously we're honor bound to honor them, until we can't take the "put up or shut up" accusations any more, get maligned and vilified, and reach a boiling point. When you then talk to us, it's because we're fed up, pissed off, and we're not happy. How then do you expect any conversation to be cordial?

If Tom remembers it one way, and Jesper remembers it another, shall we simply just ask Tom to call Jesper for clarification rather than play the blame game here, Art?

Tom already confirmed the C-scar was not added. It's structural on the TM. Has the point been made clear enough?

 

[Trap Joe]

So you are saying vadermania is incorrect or lying?
I seems to me that he is being completely honest.




No chance that what you are seeing in that pic is the black resin covering the cheek or the nose bridge.



.

hmmmmmm? Are you braindead? No, of cause not! Learn to read more careful, okay?

 

[Art Andrews]

Well, Art, at least now we know which side of the argument you're on!

If you mean on the side of calling a massive flip-flop when I see it, then yeah, I am unabashedly on that side.

If Tom remembers it one way, and Jesper remembers it another, shall we simply just ask Tom to call Jesper for clarification rather than play the blame game here, Art?

Am I correct in understanding that after your very self-assured and definitive statements, because you guys are being called out, you are now trying to get sympathy by playing the role of the victim here on the RPF?

 

[Trap Joe]

Clearly you can see on the original TM (non photoshopped image), that the c-scar and nose bridge paint line details are not there.
Clearly, those details are not covered up by the same black resin you see on the brow.
These details only show up on the subsequent castings. Why? Because JRX added them in.

Clearly you can see on the original TM (non photoshopped image), that there are worms in the cheek area (which is correct for a ESB style UK mold casting).
They are only removed in the subsequent castings. Why? Because JRX removed them.

Those are just a couple out of the several aspects that JRX did during the clean-up of this facemask.


Why did JRX do this? I can only assume that he was trying to make the helmet more accurate to ANH based on what HE believed was correct and based on what HE believed should be there.
I don't think he was trying to be deceptive.


.

Believe what you want, wash peolpe´s mind if they are weak minded. Do what you want.
I will return if you´ve stopped twisting the truth.

Hope to step back later, but doubt you are able to do that, Gino.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

hmmmmmm? Are you braindead? No, of cause not! Learn to read more careful, okay?

Joe. Let's keep things civil. It's the only way to move forward.

If the old threads still exist on The Den, I'm hoping the staff will restore them, but they may have been lost forever in some of the forum updates. Most of the pictures were already removed by Jesper when the threads were removed from the forum and archived, because people couldn't even respect the very few rules we had on The Den back then. I don't know if people even care about all of that now and unsure if restoring them will even enlighten things as to what really happened then + some of the info will be outdated. But as with all threads... I think it's safe to say that they were as nasty as the eFX thread to live through. Guess that never changed. Just new helmets and new people, I guess.

 

[CSMacLaren]

If you mean on the side of calling a massive flip-flop when I see it, then yeah, I am unabashedly on that side.



Am I correct in understanding that after your very self-assured and definitive statements, because you guys are being called out, you are now trying to get sympathy by playing the role of the victim here on the RPF?

Are you after the truth or a pound of flesh? And if Gino flip-flops what is your stance then?

 

[encased]

See, this has been great for us newer folks information wise. Thank you Vadermania for the great post. If you don't mind I have a couple questions for you:

1) When i work on sculpts or large illustrations I photograph the hell out them as I go. For a casting like this which probably set you back a nice amount did you ask Jesper to document every stage of removal? I would have set up a camcorder and my DSLR and shot everything to create my own provenance. If it was done is all the info just tied up with Jesper?

2) If this was and ESB helmet that was being restored why in God's name would you allow him to remove the worms? Shouldn't a casting from ESB be restored to ESB? The worms could easily be removed on subsequent castings for refinement to revert back to ANH. May I ask why you chose to remove them? It kind of ruins the provenance of it being an actual ESB casting.

Now resin if applied to a slick coated surface should be able to flake off if it's thin. I don't doubt that as I've had that issue. I sure would love to see the pics from the removal process to see all the spots that were deemed needing to be fixed.

GINO: Even if you are correct with your assumptions, no one like being told "You're wrong, just admit it." I've never seen anyone change their stance when challenged like that. It makes them dig in harder. I think your approach comes off too heavy handed and demanding and rubs folks the wrong way. Just my 2 cents as i find great information from both sides.

The TM pics I've seen I automatically was drawn to as I really liked the shapes. It easily became one of my favorite in terms of looks when comparing on Star Wars Helmets.com

Such great lids out there and all i have is a DPCA which I want to mess around with. Here's hoping for maybe later on down the road.

 

[CSMacLaren]

I don't know if people even care about all of that now and unsure if restoring them will even enlighten things as to what really happened then + some of the info will be outdated. But as with all threads... I think it's safe to say that they were as nasty as the eFX thread to live through. Guess that never changed. Just new helmets and new people, I guess.

As I recall, Jesper used his own website to host pics that he posted on the Den. When he quit the hobby, he took his site down, and instantly the Den thread went imageless.

So even if the Den thread were restored, only the text would be there. We'd have to reverse engineer from the text and guess as to which images were used, if we find them among our hard drives or personal archives. That's a tough one.

 

[Zenwalker]

So far, based on the photos provided and the statements of key people like vadermania, I have to say that I am personally more convinced that the infamous 'c-scar' was added on rather than an inherent artifact found on the original mould.

To me the photo of the reworked TM and right cheek looks like it was built up with a thin layer of material and then the 'scar' sculpted in, perhaps when the material was still wet. This kind of sculpted detail I don't think would be impossible to do.

Again, not trying to take sides, point figures or blame anyone, just going by what I am seeing along with logical, analytical thinking.

 

[Zombie Killer]

You guys are starting to insult our intelligence. Are you telling us that the most crazy Vader fans in the world don't know where the most coveted vader helmet pics are? Is this a joke or something? And this Jesper isn't even in the hobby and noone knows where he is? Yikes! He didn't happen to get out of the hobby soon after the Vader project did he?

 

[Trap Joe]

Well, Art, at least now we know which side of the argument you're on!

In the days waiting eagerly for our TM helmets to arrive, we were entreated to dozens and dozens of photos over the course of time. The C-scar came as a surprise to some of us because we saw the same images Gino is posting. I remember my phone call over Skype to Jesper to ask him about it, and his own words that they were photoshopped out because he didn't want this level of detail falling into the wrong hands.

We've since seen SPFX take TM information and factor it into his ESB product, so there is clear that posting quality images will benefit the wrong person who turns it into a prestige boost and financial gain.

I was asked once by Jesper to remove a C-scar from one of the images I was using for informative purposes. I don't recall which photo specifically as it was 3 years ago. Part of the agreement we were bound to by Jesper was to not reveal the true nature of the C-scar. Again, not to attack Gino, and I'm glad he was cordial towards Tom, but Jesper specifically did not want Gino to know this information. As he has been a long time bully of the community with his supposed knowledge, this would have given him one more thing to bully people with. I agreed and abided by Jesper's policy.

As a TM owner, I had no reason to believe that Jesper was lying to me when he told me details were photoshopped out. But also, for the record, I came into this hobby when it was already highly polarized by politics and bickering, with a lot of cyberbullying already taking place. Tom Mullack took pity on me being misled by Vader vendors and bullied by certain personalities, and contacted me to see if i wanted a TM casting, and that turned things around for me as well as several others. It took power away from the personalities and into the hands of the little people. But I think Jesper's policies to have us keep things secret were too strong, as obviously we're honor bound to honor them, until we can't take the "put up or shut up" accusations any more, get maligned and vilified, and reach a boiling point. When you then talk to us, it's because we're fed up, pissed off, and we're not happy. How then do you expect any conversation to be cordial?

If Tom remembers it one way, and Jesper remembers it another, shall we simply just ask Tom to call Jesper for clarification rather than play the blame game here, Art?

Tom already confirmed the C-scar was not added. It's structural on the TM. Has the point been made clear enough?

Thank you CS! I know about that and Jesper was a very thrustworthy person when we did it. You can believe me if I say the scar wasn´t made by Jesper, nor by myself. I´m a much more common sculptor and mentorerd Jesper through a lot of his and our sculpts and progresses, as I was an ececutive part of creative progress and the casting as well on the TM.
I know a lot about details and tell you once again -especially to Gino:

The scar was part of the casting. It was not added. I´ve watched over the complete progress from the beginning.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Jesper bailed out of the hobby, as I recall. He had had enough and it was likely because of this very type of thing. Last thing I recall him offering was a RotJ bucket.

Seriously, let's not paint him as some villain. He did a pretty damned fine bit of restoration on a really beat up facemask. If he TRULY said the image we all see is photoshopped after vadermania said it was not, and vm took the image...well, you don't need me to draw lines.

 

[Juansith]

Sometimes it helps me if the pics have been inverted.

I still cant figure where on that surface could be that scar hidden and all the rest of the texture that appeared.

But again i dont know nothing.

Its still hard to believe that no one dared to right click to save image in all those years that the pics where all around the internet.

But then again, such things like this and the secrecy of knowledge is well known to us humans, Alexandria..Anyone?, Middle Ages?.

This is just a microcosmic example of something that left the Human kind knowing pretty much nothing about our past.

 

[Zombie Killer]

Jesper bailed out of the hobby, as I recall. He had had enough and it was likely because of this very type of thing. Last thing I recall him offering was a RotJ bucket.

Seriously, let's not paint him as some villain. He did a pretty damned fine bit of restoration on a really beat up facemask. If he TRULY said the image we all see is photoshopped after vadermania said it was not, and vm took the image...well, you don't need me to draw lines.

Thats cool, like many i don't Know Jasper from Casper so i was asking.

 

[Art Andrews]

Are you after the truth or a pound of flesh?

I am after people seeing what is happening here and how on multiple occasions throughout this discussion (and the previous thread) that as soon as one question is answered, those who have an axe to grind simply immediately jump to something else, as is being done with this photoshop thing. Your cabal ridiculed Gino about the photoshop thing and then the minute TM stepped up and gave an answer contrary to what had been repeatedly stated as fact, you guys jumped to the whole "oh well... ummm... errr... what we meant to say when we definitely stated it was photoshopped was that there is black resin over the c-scar, but it IS under there." This is about making sure the truth about motivations aren't being swept under the rug as the point of the continued attacks keeps changing. I mean seriously, unless you are made of wagyū, who would want a pound of anyone's flesh?

And if Gino flip-flops what is your stance then?

This is where your group mistakenly believes I am an unwavering Gino supporter and wouldn't call him out if he did what you guys are actively doing. I have called out Gino repeatedly for past mistakes... and we could make a list a mile long, but that would be derailing the purpose of this thread. But to answer your question directly, if this fight continues (and it looks like none of you are even close to running out of fuel) and Gino suddenly changed his stance on something without acknowledging it in any way, I'd call him on it as well... but then, in that case I would have to stand in line behind all of you who would be jostling and jockeying to take your shots, wouldn't I?

 

[DARTH CHARLES]

i see the end of this debate.....NO C-SCAR. Period.

 

[CSMacLaren]

Art,

I have an old e-mail conversation with Tom dated back in 2007 that indicates that after Tom had sent the original TM to Jesper, Jesper further discovered more was removable and thus unearthed further details. It was a pleasant surprise to the both of them.

There was a time when the original TM discussion thread was taken down after someone leaked images/info. People were then no longer privy to photos taken in further stages of progress in the "Dr. Jones" thread on the Den.

There's no flip-flopping on my end. You're barking up the wrong tree. The goal was to learn the truth, right? Everything I've shared is what I believe to be truth. I've openly put up hi-res images of the C-scar on The Prop Den, including documenting its appearance with different lighting directions to show the shadows, the bright portions, etc. for all to see.

So where would you like this to go from here?