The Ultimate Luke ANH Graflex Research & Discussion Thread

[thd9791]

I'd also like to add that ANH filming was different from Empire. I'm guessing they probably had a few Hero's but there wasn't much to do with them... handle them, wear them on your belt, etc. for A New Hope. I don't see the prop team needing to disassemble them after they were put together in the first place (D ring, bubble strip, etc)

Empire had a lot of stunt work, at least 1 bladed graflex and decent amount of close-ups with the thing, so they probably had a few more on hand and did more stuff with them. I can absolutely see, since all the parts fit together, aimlessly grabbing a clamp from a box of parts after a repair was done or something. Hell, the Ranch saber only partially matches set photos, so maybe this idea is coming from that scenario.

it would be mildly cool to figure out the specific variant of the ANH saber but I've seen people over-react to the fact it's a folmer and not an Inc and (I can't believe I'm saying this) we might be getting carried away.

 

[Gregatron]

While it’s standard operating procedure to have backup props in case of emergency (and we know there were two Vader heroes and possibly two Kenobi heroes in addition to the various FX stunts), it could be a distinct possibility that there was only one Luke hero. Unlikely, but possible.

I have yet to see any tangible evidence of more than one hero in either the on-set or promo photos. Or, maybe one hero just got all the attention, and none of the backups were ever seen or used.

We know there we multiple Graflex CLAMPS floating around the production, and at least two styles of red button (full-knurling/hero and thin-knurling/FX stunt), but there seems to be no actual evidence of two full Graflex flashguns existing simultaneously during production, as crazy as that sounds.

 

[Diego86]

I don't understand what you're missing.... For those purposes of illustration in that photo, I was comparing the buttons only and yes the replica was on a real top. I wanted a consistent photo comparison base for the buttons. It was clearly stating we were looking at the button differences for those photos.

This is exactly what i tried to explain in my post #111 !!! No intention of discrediting anyone, absolutely. Maybe my english is so bad that I can't explain what I think. In any case I apologize if I have offended anyone!

 

[Gregatron]

This is exactly what i tried to explain in my post #111 !!! No intention of discrediting anyone, absolutely. Maybe my english is so bad that I can't explain what I think. In any case I apologize if I have offended anyone!

No worries. There’s pretty obviously been a language barrier here from the start, and that’s clearly causing some issues.

 

[BTTUK]

While it’s standard operating procedure to have backup props in case of emergency (and we know there were two Vader heroes and possibly two Kenobi heroes in addition to the various FX stunts), it could be a distinct possibility that there was only one Luke hero. Unlikely, but possible.

I have yet to see any tangible evidence of more than one hero in either the on-set or promo photos. Or, maybe one hero just got all the attention, and none of the backups were ever seen or used.

We know there we multiple Graflex CLAMPS floating around the production, and at least two styles of red button (full-knurling/hero and thin-knurling/FX stunt), but there seems to be no actual evidence of two full Graflex flashguns existing simultaneously during production, as crazy as that sounds.

Wasn't the recent "Elstreet" Graflex from ANH production that was found in the rubbish during filming?

 

[APOLLO IND]

On a totally different topic of the handle rivets! So some think it was used to hold a core, or perhaps in coordination with the D ring? I have to wonder if it originated as some kind of stunt saber, and there were holes drilled for the wires to come through? Then when they used it as a belt hanger just attempted to sort of fill the holes with rivets or something? Just a guess!

 

[Gregatron]

Wasn't the recent "Elstreet" Graflex from ANH production that was found in the rubbish during filming?

Yes, and it seems authentic. But we don’t know exactly where it came from (or even which film), if it was ever used during production, etc. The circumstantial evidence points to ANH, and some kind of failed attempt at building a FX/stunt, but we just don’t know.

I suppose I wasn’t being clear enough. I meant that there’s no evidence FROM THE TIME OF PRODUCTION that there was more than one full Graflex flashgun in use. No photos showing more than one flashgun at a time. No photos or footage of the hero with noticeably different traits, indicating the existence of more than one hero.

Just one confirmed Luke hero and some scattered Graflex parts on other props. But no sign of the Elstree appearing anywhere in or around the film.

 

[Gregatron]

On a totally different topic of the handle rivets! So some think it was used to hold a core, or perhaps in coordination with the D ring? I have to wonder if it originated as some kind of stunt saber, and there were holes drilled for the wires to come through? Then when they used it as a belt hanger just attempted to sort of fill the holes with rivets or something? Just a guess!

Personally, I think they just wanted to reinforce the d-ring attachment to the flashgun so that the Graflex’s bottom endcap didn’t pop off during the rigors of filming, and/or from the weight of the prop hanging on a belt. Note that the rivets are positioned on the side of the lower tube opposite the clamp box, on the “non-beauty” side of the prop, where they wouldn’t be seen.

 

[schrodinger555]

There's a photo that's been posted from time to time of a graflex top sitting around during the production of ANH I believe. I haven't been able to find it again, but it may be useful to look at again. If I remember right there was a missing glass eye or some other details that suggested parts being swapped out. If anyone knows the photo it may be useful to have in this thread.

 

[Gregatron]

There's a photo that's been posted from time to time of a graflex top sitting around during the production of ANH I believe. I haven't been able to find it again, but it may be useful to look at again. If I remember right there was a missing glass eye or some other details that suggested parts being swapped out. If anyone knows the photo it may be useful to have in this thread.

If you’re talking about the image I’m thinking of, that’s from ESB.

 

[BTTUK]

Yes, and it seems authentic. But we don’t know exactly where it came from (or even which film), if it was ever used during production, etc. The circumstantial evidence points to ANH, and some kind of failed attempt at building a FX/stunt, but we just don’t know.

I suppose I wasn’t being clear enough. I meant that there’s no evidence FROM THE TIME OF PRODUCTION that there was more than one full Graflex flashgun in use. No photos showing more than one flashgun at a time. No photos or footage of the hero with noticeably different traits, indicating the existence of more than one hero.

Just one confirmed Luke hero and some scattered Graflex parts on other props. But no sign of the Elstree appearing anywhere in or around the film.

I think it is confirmed by the bloke who took it originally was present on the sets of ANH as a child, but I'll check out that video of him again to confirm that.

Which ties into what I meant by my reply, which was to only confirm that more than one was present during ANH, though I understand there is no further evidence of it being with the actual hero prop.

Personally I think only one was used for the hero, but that there were more knocking around in some capacity.

Good luck to all in figuring out this prop, i'm looking forward to reading this thread.

 

[v312]

Personally, I think they just wanted to reinforce the d-ring attachment to the flashgun so that the Graflex’s bottom endcap didn’t pop off during the rigors of filming, and/or from the weight of the prop hanging on a belt. Note that the rivets are positioned on the side of the lower tube opposite the clamp box, on the “non-beauty” side of the prop, where they wouldn’t be seen.

While this seems the most likely explanation ... there are few things that make me question it.

They apparently let Obi's heavier lightsaber hang on the plastic cube of the handwheel. So I doubt they were concerned about the durability on this one too much.

It is clear that 2 rivets and the bottom itself should support the weight of an empty hilt just fine. After all it is designed to hold the weight of 3 batteries while hanging on the tiny tabs on the clamp (and that's proven to be good enough for military use).

The tiny aluminum? sheet they wrapped around to attach the D-ring and rivet to the bottom is much much weaker than the bottom itself and if anything breaks it will be either the aluminum sheet from the 2 rivets or the D-ring will cut trough it.

The 4 rivets on the side do not help at all with this. They are cramped so close together is an overkill and I think it will actually weaken the construction with too many holes.

And why use different sizes? I'd just drill 6 holes with the same drill bit and use 6 identical rivets if I had to do something like this.

 

[AnubisGuard]

All sensible points; some thoughts.

They apparently let Obi's heavier lightsaber hang on the plastic cube of the handwheel. So I doubt they were concerned about the durability on this one too much.

They also, so far as we know, built the Luke saber first. It may have been simple overkill. Also supposedly Christian built the ANH himself, while I dimly recall he didn't build the Obi (or Vader) sabers. Different people, different approaches. Clearly it wasn't an issue on Obi, so they left it.

It is clear that 2 rivets and the bottom itself should support the weight of an empty hilt just fine. After all it is designed to hold the weight of 3 batteries while hanging on the tiny tabs on the clamp (and that's proven to be good enough for military use).

Is it clear? We know that, especially because we've spent years not reinforcing the bottoms of flashes, but I don't know that they would know that, especially the part about the flashes seeing military use. Doesn't matter if it's true; it only maters if the prop guys would have thought of it that way.

One of the first times this was discussed, I recall a few folks mentioned that the flash bottoms can, occasionally, pop out. Maybe it happened on one of the flashes from the box Christian bought? Possible, maybe.

The tiny aluminum sheet they wrapped around to attach the D-ring and rivet to the bottom is much much weaker than the bottom itself and if anything breaks it will be either the aluminum sheet from the 2 rivets or the D-ring will cut trough it.

No objection here. Seems obvious even to me, but who knows.

The 4 rivets on the side do not help at all with this. They are cramped so close together is an overkill and I think it will actually weaken the construction with too many holes.

Disagree. I've popped a lot of rivets into a lot of brass tubing over the years and that's tough stuff. If I were concerned that a press-fit disk of sheet metal might pop out of its housing, I'd 100% trust rivets driven into brass tube wall to hold it.

And why use different sizes? I'd just drill 6 holes with the same drill bit and use 6 identical rivets if I had to do something like this.

While that's a good question it doesn't seem relevant if they're for reinforcement or not. No matter what Christian et al were doing, you have to wonder why they didn't pick out the same rivets for both sides.

 

[thd9791]

There's a photo that's been posted from time to time of a graflex top sitting around during the production of ANH I believe. I haven't been able to find it again, but it may be useful to look at again. If I remember right there was a missing glass eye or some other details that suggested parts being swapped out. If anyone knows the photo it may be useful to have in this thread.

Yea, if this is the photo Gregatron is talking about, it's the prop workshop for ESB with lots of scuba gear. There's a nice shiny graflex stop sitting on a shelf behind the worker(s)
ESB Shop Photos

They also, so far as we know, built the Luke saber first. It may have been simple overkill. Also supposedly Christian built the ANH himself, while I dimly recall he didn't build the Obi (or Vader) sabers. Different people, different approaches. Clearly it wasn't an issue on Obi, so they left it.

I know this is going to elicit the "memory isn't foolproof" thing, which I understand but there are usually nuggets of truth in there. I do distinctly remember it getting out that Roger only dressed the thing and the D ring was the responsibility of the costuming department; ala how to hang this prop on a costume belt
(Off topic, I've always wondered the logic behind using the Kobold clip for the next movie. Maybe they looked to the Kobold flashes on their belts already, some of them sporting D rings like the arc-welder handle, and used that... anyway)

 

[v312]

Is it clear? We know that, especially because we've spent years not reinforcing the bottoms of flashes, but I don't know that they would know that, especially the part about the flashes seeing military use. Doesn't matter if it's true; it only maters if the prop guys would have thought of it that way.

One of the first times this was discussed, I recall a few folks mentioned that the flash bottoms can, occasionally, pop out. Maybe it happened on one of the flashes from the box Christian bought? Possible, maybe.

Now that you've mentioned it, yes if it is to prevent the bottom disk to pop out it makes sense to do something like what we see.

 

[AnubisGuard]

Now that you've mentioned it, yes if it is to prevent the bottom disk to pop out it makes sense to do something like what we see.

Yeah, I think that's the hypothesis; not to reinforce the d-ring rivets but to reinforce the disk itself.

 

[AnubisGuard]

(Off topic, I've always wondered the logic behind using the Kobold clip for the next movie. Maybe they looked to the Kobold flashes on their belts already, some of them sporting D rings like the arc-welder handle, and used that... anyway)

Complete speculation on my part, but I think they had Kobold's with D-rings installed in the clips to use as droid callers, and whoever was in charge of the ESB Graflex conversions saw one -- either left over from ANH or built for ESB -- liked the look, and used one. Saved the trouble of making a new mount just for the Graflex, etc.

 

[v312]

Yeah, I think that's the hypothesis; not to reinforce the d-ring rivets but to reinforce the disk itself.

Then that point's us to a very specific early Folmer NY bottoms that were prone to this problem?

I vaguely remember seeing a picture of one where the disc looked sort of soldered and barely holding on to the tube...

I was thinking about this one when wrote in my initial post

 

[James Kenobi 1138]

There is no solder on the bottom tube, the end cap disk is held in place with a rolled edge and groove milled into the tube.

The inside of the tube end is milled or lathed with a small recess a little deeper than the thickness of the end cap disk. The disk sits on the milled step, and the slightly higher walls of the tube are rolled over by a machine process, holding the disk tight.

It is possible to remove the disk, but it can only come out one way. You could remove and turn the end cap disk if you were trying to match a specific saber shot from one of the movies and your bottom tube end cap didn’t match up.

I’ve done it before, you have to be really careful or you risk the disk tearing the rolled lip. I’ve re-rolled the lip on one of these cut 2-cell bottom tubes.

 

[Obi1Kenobi]

Yeah, I think that's the hypothesis; not to reinforce the d-ring rivets but to reinforce the disk itself.

I agree with this hypothesis. I imagine an L-shaped bent piece of metal inside the saber with the long arm of the L attached to the ID of the tube by the four rivets between the grips and the short arm of the L attached to the backside of the disk by the two rivets that also hold on the makeshift bracket for the D-ring.

But that still begs the question... Why did they (apparently) not reinforce the bottom disk of the Graflex flash on the ESB saber(s)? The Kobold clip is anchored to that same disk, right? As others have pointed out, the ESB sabers saw a lot more action but apparently there was no problem with the bottom disk pulling out of the tube. Were the prop makers for ANH just overly-cautious? Is v312 saying in post #178 above that the ANH hero saber might have been built from a generation of Graflex flash that was inherently weaker on the bottom disk than the generation of Graflex flashes used for ESB Luke sabers?