The Marvels (2023)

Cultural influences affecting the entire market and Disney's rampant budgeting certainly are both factors at play in the downfall, but if we want to actually reverse this trend we can't ignore the fact that the quality of writing has taken a nosedive.

I'm not going to argue with anyone who wants to say there's nothing wrong with the writing, but this is apparent to a non-trivial number of fans.

It isn't just a matter of overbudgeting of otherwise quality productions IMO. Fans don't think about what was spent; they only know what they like or don't like. If these were still good movies the fans would not be turning their backs on the films in such large numbers or crying out about the "magic" being lost from MCU, Lucasfilm and PIXAR.

Any discussion about "wokeness" is a minefield. The issue of "wokeness" is typically misunderstood, misrepresented and mishandled by both the fans and the studio, but I do think some discussion of this is integral to a realistic analysis of Disney's decline.

Diversity, equity and inclusion are positive principles and necessary in the long run. The correct approach is when DEI is organically integrated into otherwise original and traditionally inspirational stories. The wrong approach (IMO) is to simply rainbow-wash every major production and raise flags while bulldozing over traditional themes of romance, humility, personal sacrifice for a greater cause than self etc.

Disney has done it right before. "Frozen" is a clever allegory for coming out of the closet (I stand by this claim) and did it well. "Andor" features a lesbian couple whose relationship is complex and engaging. (Vel is a flawed and tragic character played with heartbreaking delicacy.) The early MCU was already giving us multiple major female and black characters that stood on their own without having to make an underscored statement about it, and were part of a greater story.

Disney was already on the right track, but why did they have to give us films like, "Strange World"? I won't rehash the arguments about the overhaul of Star Wars and MCU. Once again, it isn't a problem with DEI - only in the way these IPs are seemingly being landscaped to displace just about anything white, cisgender or male. Pointing that out doesn't make me a bigot.

Somewhere along the way it feels as if a plan for peaceful integration gave way to plans for a "hostile makeover", and it is so sudden and hamhanded it is hard to digest.

Historically I have always been a SW and MCU apologist, but it is too hard for me to suspend disbelief anymore. I defended "The Last Jedi" until I watched "Rise of Skywalker" which reversed my opinion.

We accept that Harrison Ford can't be Indy forever, but they could have been more respectful about passing the torch. They could have certainly treated Luke and Han better. You can't ignore the fans who express outrage. If they were a trivial minority we wouldn't be having these discussions in the first place.

There was a time that every PIXAR film managed to make me cry and/or changed the way I saw the world. "Lightyear" was as far away from those principles as you could get. I can't even recall a single moment that made me laugh. (I liked the cat, though).

I am not writing as a gleeful Disney hater. I'm a fan, just like y'all, who has picked apart these IPs and appreciated what made them tick. I'd like to think I'm fairly observant, and I have an opinion that these franchises are conceptually off track. I am not trying to win an academic argument by pointing this out but, I believe Disney will continue to fail if we ignore their mishandling of DEI. I want to see Disney thrive again.


(I am writing this from a family vacation at Disney World.)

Well, at least you're at WDW during one of the few remaining slow(er) times of year, right after New Year's. Enjoy Tron: Lightcycle Run for me, grab an adult beverage from Oga's Cantina if you can, fly the hell out of the Falcon, and say "hi" to the Navi and Jack Sparrow (Pirates is my favorite attraction of all time).

Enjoy your family trip, and Kungaloosh!
 
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Well, at least you're at WDW during one of the few remaining slow(er) times of year, right after New Year's. Enjoy Tron: Lightcycle Run for me, grab an adult beverage from Oga's Cantina if you can, fly the hell out of the Falcon, and say "hi" to the Navi and Jack Sparrow (Pirates is my favorite attraction of all time).

Enjoy your family trip, and Kungaloosh!



Kugal

Coming from California we are typically visit Disneyland. Every once in a while we go east to Disney World. I enjoy just being in Galaxy's Edge most of all. Once we went late to Star Wars Smuggler's Run and discovered it closed 30 min after other rides. There were less than a dozen other guests there so, running through the lines, we got to ride the Falcon about six times in a row and saw different misson endings, including one where everything seemed to malfunction.
 
I think that part of the issue with Hollywood is that they haven't adjusted to the new reality which has little to do with DEI and wokeness and everything to do with how movie-going and viewing habits have changed as well as the market in general. For a long while Hollywood was producing prequels, sequels, and reboots, along with big action and FX spectacles because these may or not have done well here in the States but they did outstandingly well overseas, China in particular. But that's all changed now, relations with China are no longer so cozy and they've started to develop their own domestic movie industry. To add to that, movie budgets have ballooned and streaming has really taken off giving consumers even more choices in how and where they want to watch their movies. And I think that Hollywood hasn't really adjusted to this new reality yet and, for the most part, is still doing things the same way they've been for the past couple of decades or so with the addition of throwing more and more money at each production.

I do feel, though, that Hollywood will change and adapt, it's just that it takes a while to course correct. There's been and probably still a lot of backlogged projects that they need to get through before they can turn the ship around, so to speak. But give them time and they'll produce more Barbenheimers and Everything Everywhere All at Once kind of movies. They'll realize that big-budget FX/action spectaculars are no longer the huge box-office draws they once were, esp, without overseas markets like China to make up for any domestic losses, and will likely move to smaller budget productions. And studios like Disney will probably also stretch out the amount of time their big movies stay in the theater before hitting streaming.
 
And this is mostly BS.

Sure you can find that… but it’s like that meme…

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While painfully ignoring…

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I think that part of the issue with Hollywood is that they haven't adjusted to the new reality which has little to do with DEI and wokeness and everything to do with how movie-going and viewing habits have changed as well as the market in general. For a long while Hollywood was producing prequels, sequels, and reboots, along with big action and FX spectacles because these may or not have done well here in the States but they did outstandingly well overseas, China in particular. But that's all changed now, relations with China are no longer so cozy and they've started to develop their own domestic movie industry. To add to that, movie budgets have ballooned and streaming has really taken off giving consumers even more choices in how and where they want to watch their movies. And I think that Hollywood hasn't really adjusted to this new reality yet and, for the most part, is still doing things the same way they've been for the past couple of decades or so with the addition of throwing more and more money at each production.

I do feel, though, that Hollywood will change and adapt, it's just that it takes a while to course correct. There's been and probably still a lot of backlogged projects that they need to get through before they can turn the ship around, so to speak. But give them time and they'll produce more Barbenheimers and Everything Everywhere All at Once kind of movies. They'll realize that big-budget FX/action spectaculars are no longer the huge box-office draws they once were, esp, without overseas markets like China to make up for any domestic losses, and will likely move to smaller budget productions. And studios like Disney will probably also stretch out the amount of time their big movies stay in the theater before hitting streaming.
Yeah, again, I really don't think it's the woke/DEI/etc. stuff that's causing this. Sure, that upsets a segment of the audience, but I don't think it's the cause behind the kind of box office performance we've seen.

Think of it this way: these same issues were kicking around back in 2017-2019, right? And yet, box offices were still going strong. Many of the complaints about, for example, Captain Marvel (2019) did not stop it from making $1.2B worldwide. That's a split, by the way, of about $426M domestic, and $701M international.

Same story with the Star Wars films. Rey was apparently a Mary Sue woke avatar (or whatever) as far back as 2015...but both The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker broke the $1B barrier (w/Last Jedi getting $1.3B) worldwide.

Bottom line, I think the cultural issues some audience members have with the content of these films is pretty marginal vs. the overall box office performance. What I suspect have had much bigger impacts are:

- Shifts in overseas markets. As noted, China is developing its own film industry and may be losing its taste for western cinema like it once had. That's a huge market that's shrinking, and one that studios counted on and even deferred to. Plus there are political ramifications there where Chinese censors won't let in certain films (and don't really need a reason to just say "no US films at all" if they want to). Russia is a closed market right now, too. Again, not a huge one, but it eats into margins.

- The rise of streaming culture has put a HUGE dent in box offices. Why go to the theater when it'll be on some service you already pay for in anywhere from 1-3 months? Even if it's not on a service you pay for, you'll be able to buy it streaming or on physical media within that time frame, and sometimes faster than it hits the streaming services (Disney has done this with several projects, where you could buy it before it hit the already-paid-for service, such as GOTG3).

- To add to the shift towards streaming, COVID I think hurt theater audiences and may have accelerated the shift to streaming.

I think it's also worth considering the impact of investors on the decision-making processes of the studios. In the late 2010s/early 2020s, esp. prior to the COVID pandemic, the prevailing wisdom seemed to be "You gotta get your own streaming service up" and the way to incentivize people to sign up for that was pretty simple: exclusive content. Silo all your stuff on your streaming service, make it unavailable (other than by purchase) outside of it, and you'll incentivize people to pay for a subscription. Consider the frustration some people had when they couldn't find The Office or Friends on Netflix or whathaveyou, because those went to Hulu and Peacock, respectively. To keep people interested, that also required investing in original programming, plus making sure attractive movies shifted over to streaming quickly. But the flipside of that is you conditioned your audience to LOVE streaming...and now they won't go back to theaters, or at least won't go as reliably as they did before.

Really, though, while this is a part of the shift, I think probably the biggest shift is the overseas markets. It's not "the writing is bad." If bad writing were a guarantee of bad box office performance, you'd never have seen another Transformers sequel. And yet, they've made...what...5? 6? I've lost count. The last one was "a disappointment" because they blew $200M making it, and it "only" made $400M. Not an unpopular film, I suppose, but not popular enough to justify its price tag for sure.

And that's about where the industry is right now. International markets aren't the backstop they once were. Streaming is still really attractive to audiences although there may be some rumbling about folks wanting to go back to physical media (which is a double-edged sword for studios). And big-budget spectacle is really common now. The market forces at play are simply different now than they were in 2019, and Hollywood -- like most industries -- pivots like an aircraft carrier.
 
Yeah, again, I really don't think it's the woke/DEI/etc. stuff that's causing this. Sure, that upsets a segment of the audience, but I don't think it's the cause behind the kind of box office performance we've seen.

Nobody is saying it's the only problem, but it absolutely is a problem. We also have writers who have zero lived life experience, they just come straight out of college, having been brainwashed with all of these stupid ideas and the idea that they're supposed to be "activists" who stuff it into everything they do. You have actors who cannot keep their fool mouths shut and studios who insist on blaming all of their troubles on "-ists" and "-phobes" who don't really exist, they're just a convenient target for when the studios put out a terrible product. It's not the only problem but it's a big one and a lot of these are clearly linked.

Think of it this way: these same issues were kicking around back in 2017-2019, right? And yet, box offices were still going strong. Many of the complaints about, for example, Captain Marvel (2019) did not stop it from making $1.2B worldwide. That's a split, by the way, of about $426M domestic, and $701M international.

That's only because they put it between two of the most anticipated films of all time and implied that it would be necessary to see it in order to understand Endgame. Had it appeared anywhere else in the MCU timeline, it wouldn't have done as well.

Same story with the Star Wars films. Rey was apparently a Mary Sue woke avatar (or whatever) as far back as 2015...but both The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker broke the $1B barrier (w/Last Jedi getting $1.3B) worldwide.

Only because they were starting with one of the biggest franchises in the history of cinema. They had a built-in audience. Most people assumed it was actually going somewhere meaningful. Then they found out how wrong that was. Then Solo and other projects failed and it's been all downhill since then.

Bottom line, I think the cultural issues some audience members have with the content of these films is pretty marginal vs. the overall box office performance. What I suspect have had much bigger impacts are:

- Shifts in overseas markets. As noted, China is developing its own film industry and may be losing its taste for western cinema like it once had. That's a huge market that's shrinking, and one that studios counted on and even deferred to. Plus there are political ramifications there where Chinese censors won't let in certain films (and don't really need a reason to just say "no US films at all" if they want to). Russia is a closed market right now, too. Again, not a huge one, but it eats into margins.

Absolutely things are changing, but that's where Disney should have figured out that massive budgets were just a recipe for disaster. In fact, the only reason China and the Middle East started being so critical of Disney movies is because of the rise in woke nonsense that they shoehorned in. So, Disney had to start making multiple versions, one for the home market and one for overseas where they could edit out all of the woke crap that was getting their movies rejected. Again, we see that its very existence is a problem. They are trying to preach, not entertain.

- The rise of streaming culture has put a HUGE dent in box offices. Why go to the theater when it'll be on some service you already pay for in anywhere from 1-3 months? Even if it's not on a service you pay for, you'll be able to buy it streaming or on physical media within that time frame, and sometimes faster than it hits the streaming services (Disney has done this with several projects, where you could buy it before it hit the already-paid-for service, such as GOTG3).

But these things aren't even doing well in streaming, given the billions that streaming is losing. It's not like streaming services are doing gangbusters because people are watching all of these failed movies in theaters at home. People are just walking away from almost all streaming services.

- To add to the shift towards streaming, COVID I think hurt theater audiences and may have accelerated the shift to streaming.

Except they aren't shifting to streaming for big budget movies. The studios don't want to release any actual data, probably because they know it would prove what terrible flops these all are, but for TV shows, for instance, we can get watch-minute data and it's not good. It's positively embarrassing.

I think it's also worth considering the impact of investors on the decision-making processes of the studios. In the late 2010s/early 2020s, esp. prior to the COVID pandemic, the prevailing wisdom seemed to be "You gotta get your own streaming service up" and the way to incentivize people to sign up for that was pretty simple: exclusive content. Silo all your stuff on your streaming service, make it unavailable (other than by purchase) outside of it, and you'll incentivize people to pay for a subscription. Consider the frustration some people had when they couldn't find The Office or Friends on Netflix or whathaveyou, because those went to Hulu and Peacock, respectively. To keep people interested, that also required investing in original programming, plus making sure attractive movies shifted over to streaming quickly. But the flipside of that is you conditioned your audience to LOVE streaming...and now they won't go back to theaters, or at least won't go as reliably as they did before.

I think we all agree that the streaming wars were a bad idea. Tons of companies jumped in with both feet without verifying that there was a viable market. They assumed that it would keep going up forever and they were wrong. There just isn't a market for as many services, or as many shows, as they've made. It's why they keep losing money. If streaming was a replacement for theaters, then the streaming numbers should be better, but they're not.

Really, though, while this is a part of the shift, I think probably the biggest shift is the overseas markets. It's not "the writing is bad." If bad writing were a guarantee of bad box office performance, you'd never have seen another Transformers sequel. And yet, they've made...what...5? 6? I've lost count. The last one was "a disappointment" because they blew $200M making it, and it "only" made $400M. Not an unpopular film, I suppose, but not popular enough to justify its price tag for sure.

I do think that the overseas markets are changing, but that just means that studios need to drastically reduce their budgets and focus on making better, tighter, more entertaining movies than what they've been doing. Unfortunately, most of them have entirely ignored common sense and just doubled down on massive budgets and preaching to a crowd that's not going to see their movies in the first place. Say what you want about Transformers, they actually have a market. The movies make a profit. It might not be a massive profit, but it's still a profit, whereas pretty much everything that Disney makes fails. They have lost a billion dollars at the box office in 2023 alone and it's not looking any better moving forward. They aren't learning anything. They're just throwing their money away and making themselves look bad.

And that's about where the industry is right now. International markets aren't the backstop they once were. Streaming is still really attractive to audiences although there may be some rumbling about folks wanting to go back to physical media (which is a double-edged sword for studios). And big-budget spectacle is really common now. The market forces at play are simply different now than they were in 2019, and Hollywood -- like most industries -- pivots like an aircraft carrier.

Studios don't want physical media because they can't milk it, but a ton of people, like myself, only do physical media. If they don't release it, then we pirate it, burn it anyhow, and keep going. We're perfectly willing to give them money for quality projects, but they refuse, both because they don't make anything good and because they don't want to put it out there. They have proven that they can't be trusted with streaming. How many cases have people bought movies digitally, only to find out that they no longer have access because the studios don't want to provide it? They need to be able to identify actual customers and give their customers what they want. Hollywood isn't doing that right now. They are hemorraghing money as a result. That is their fault, not ours. They are completely to blame. Nothing is going to change until they do and they don't want to change.

Therefore, watching them sink is inevitable. I think that a few less studios and a few less streaming services and a few less horrible writers, actors and studio heads, would do the world wonders. I'm looking forward to watching modern-day Hollywood burn. They've brought it on themselves.
 
I want to see the female superhero character movies do well because there are so many good female comic characters. But so few of them are in the movies yet. The Spider-Woman characters look like disaster incoming. But they could put Firestar in a Spider-Man movie. We still don't have a Black Cat heist movie. We didn't get a good Psylocke or Rogue yet. We finally got a good Storm actress and action scene in the last X-Men movie . However as a movie it wasn't that good.
 
My choice to not watch The Marvels had nothing to do with a female led cast. I’m just generally burnt out with Marvel movies.

It’s the same trope over and over again. Bad guy rises, good guy(s) have to fight and stop them.

Marvel has now become like all of those Elvis movies. They just keep making the same movie over and over again with different character names.

Loki was the only recent addition that was truly refreshing and (in a sense) new.

There are several D+ Marvel shows that I haven’t watched. Several Marvel movies too for that matter.
 
Marvel has now become like all of those Elvis movies. They just keep making the same movie over and over again with different character names.

The first few iconic ones like Iron man, Cappy, and then 'The Avengers', 'Endgame' . . . those made a legit dent in the culture. Not much else has.

Today the genre is in the 1980s hair-metal band stage. The formula is narrowed down to being really predictable and they just keep cranking up the fireworks & costuming.
 
So, I finally got to watch the Marvels after it dropped for digital purchase today. **** the haters, it was freaking amazing. I had so much fun watching it, and will be watching it again shortly!

Seriously... I would be in heaven if Marvel would revisit the dual release option like they experimented with for Black Widow. I happily plunked the money down to watch at home instead of in the theater, and I would absolutely do it again if it was an option. To me, that seems like a no-brainer to help mitigate losses like we've seen on The Marvels.

Not all of us are willing to roll the dice on compromised immune systems, COVID, and the rest of humanity's apparent desire to tempt fate.
 
I watched it. I didn't notice anything woke about it. It was just a bad movie. The writing sucked, directing sucked, they ripped off the Thanos gauntlet scene from End Game but with just 3 women....the list goes on. If this movie was just 3 men it still would have sucked.
 
It’s one I’ll check out. I still haven’t watched Thor, Eternals, the kung fu one with the rings, or a third of the TV shows.

I guess curiosity will draw me to this one.
 
If studios want people to come out en masse to see films in theatres, they have to stop making them with production quality that doesn't surpass Shark Boy and Lava Girl. If it's 90s TV quality I'm seeing in the trailer, I'm staying home and waiting for it to stream. If it looks like it was filmed with epic quality that NEEDS to be seen on the big screen, then I'll *consider* spending the ridiculous amount of money it takes to see it on the big screen.

BUT,,, If it's Godzilla, I will ALWAYS see it on the big screen. That's just a given. I don't care if there's a plot.
 
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