Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Pre-release)

[Ron]

No, not really. I've seen that with Luke. Don't really need to see it again.

As an aside, that's how I feel about this trilogy. I saw the hero story with Luke and the struggle against the dark side and the Empire and I don't need to see it again. I agree. What's the point of doing the same story again? But I digress...

But I'm sure you'll agree a character needs adversity to grow. What is Rey's adversity? If she doesn't struggle with anything, how can she grow? How can she develop as a protagonist?

 

[sztriki]

No, not really. I've seen that with Luke. Don't really need to see it again.

At the same time I seem to recall that you love TFA...?

 

[Joek3rr]

As an aside, that's how I feel about this trilogy. I saw the hero story with Luke and the struggle against the dark side and the Empire and I don't need to see it again. I agree. What's the point of doing the same story again? But I digress...

But I'm sure you'll agree a character needs adversity to grow. What is Rey's adversity? If she doesn't struggle with anything, how can she grow? How can she develop as a protagonist?

See that's what I love about the ST, it's the old, with a new twist. I mean just look at the the first trailer for TFA. There's a desert planet. That's old. Then we see a Stormtrooper. That's old. But it's new armor and the Stormtrooper isn't wearing his helmet, that's new. Then we see BB-8, an Astromech. That's old. Buts a new design of Astromech. Stuff like that.

 

[SpyderDan]

Screen grab from the new "Fate" TROS TV spot:

Finally getting a closer look at the B-wing, and it certainly does have some revisions to the design.

Seeing multiple Y-wings, so it isn't just the Zorri Bliss ship, as some have speculated.

We can also clearly see clouds, and not just below the Star Destroyers, as you can see that some of the ships are partially obscured by the clouds that they are within. That confirms the battle is taking place within atmosphere, explaining how people are running around on top of hulls, or jumping to the Falcon.

We also see blue lightning coming from the surface, which is apparently confirming some of the plot leaks.

 

[Psab keel]

They need to change the title of the series to Atmosphere Wars.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Oy... Regarding the bombers. The formation was too tight. We even figured out it was more effective to have a loose formation and escort fighters before the end of WWII. But zero issues with the bombs. The idea of a railgun has been around for over a century and a half, and was the first thing I thought of when I watched the bombs go on first viewing opening day. No ancillary material to inform my impression.

Which brings me to the inertia matter, or "things stopping in space in Star Wars". What we are seeing when fighters get shot down and when the Resistance ships run out of fuel is them no longer accelerating, as the other ships are still doing. Absent outside referents, it's hard to instinctively catch that, but it's not a case of the other craft slowing down. It's that they're no longer continuing to go faster, as anything with engines going in vacuum will for as long as that thrust is applied.

 

[Joek3rr]

Oy... Regarding the bombers. The formation was too tight. We even figured out it was more effective to have a loose formation and escort fighters before the end of WWII. But zero issues with the bombs. The idea of a railgun has been around for over a century and a half, and was the first thing I thought of when I watched the bombs go on first viewing opening day. No ancillary material to inform my impression.

Which brings me to the inertia matter, or "things stopping in space in Star Wars". What we are seeing when fighters get shot down and when the Resistance ships run out of fuel is them no longer accelerating, as the other ships are still doing. Absent outside referents, it's hard to instinctively catch that, but it's not a case of the other craft slowing down. It's that they're no longer continuing to go faster, as anything with engines going in vacuum will for as long as that thrust is applied.

I would say the formation was about right. Maybe a tad tight, but not by much.

The problem is we know that ships have a top speed. And they can't go faster then those speeds. Take the Resistance bombers. They are shown to be going slow. But if they were continually accelerating. They could started the bombers further back, then they would be going faster.

 

[jhazard]

But Rey hasn't mastered the Force. Not in the least. Pretty much everything Rey has done has been reflexive. Where either her life or someone else's life is in danger, she can pull this stuff off. But yet we've yet to see her sit down and consciously do something. Apparently this something that being explored in the comics, and by all accounts it will be explored in TROS. This goes back to Ben's statement that she's strong but lacks training.

Also I'd say that Rey is pretty naturally adept with the Force. Just looking at what she's done. So to say that The Child is, and she isn't, is incorrect.

Not sure where mastering the force comes in?

She consciously tried to mind trick the stormtrooper.

She consciously drew upon the force when fighting Kylo.

She consciously drew upon the force to lift the rocks at the end of TLJ. Those were not reflexive actions.

We haven't seen her consciously train though (other than with her lightsaber against a rock)

I'm not necessarily arguing that Rey is not adept with the force - its obvious she is.

But every argument made for her uncanny ability to assimilate and use it with no training or prior kniwkedge, only reinforces why there should be no issues with a creature twice her age with no apparent training also using it to equal or greater degree.

Remove Rey from Star Wars. Does the baby Yoda's abilities raise eyebrows?

 

[HeartBlade]

That's a damn good point. Why aren't all the Mary Sue callers going nuts over this? How dare anyone have Force powers without being trained!! What horrible, lazy writing.

I haven’t seen the Mandalorian so can’t comment (no Disney+ where I’m in for now) but checked out the Mandalorian thread and saw baby Yoda can heal and lift a beast with the force.

Here are 3 reasons why I don’t think Baby Yoda is a Gary Sue (although this is only coming from a clip and second hand knowledge)

1) We don’t know Baby Yoda’s backstory. We know the Yoda species has been strong with the Force (we see 2 in the OT and PT and both were Jedi Masters) and Baby Yoda is 50 years old. It is possible that Baby Yoda has had force sensitivity training if not Jedi training. This is still the first 3 episodes so people are willing to wait for the backstory to be revealed.

2) Baby Yoda is not omnipotent. As a baby, it still needs protecting and someone to provide food, etc. There are limits to Baby Yoda. Thus, despite being potentially weaker, the Mandalorian is essential to Baby Yoda’s survival.

3) Baby allows Mandalorian to develop. Mandalorian didn’t believe in the force and as a bounty hunter, relies on his own strength. He now comes to a realization that there is a power he cannot possess and also may not be able to overcome and is wielded by this tiny thing. That brings some interesting character development.

If we want to contrast with Rey.

1) Poor backstory. She is young, had no knowledge of the force, and no strong force lineage yet shows proficiency above masters. Apparently RoS will retcon this so that Rey is a descendent of Palpatine so this is arguably being fixed.

2) Rey is omnipotent. She hasn’t lost a fight or really found herself in a situation where she needed external help to get out of a mess. Her only real “loss” is getting captured by the First Order in TFA. She is also able to solve problems relatively easily on her own that are monumental for others.

3) No character development. This isn’t an issue only for Rey though. Pretty much the only character that has really developed is Kylo and Poe to a lesser extent.

 

[jhazard]

I haven’t seen the Mandalorian so can’t comment (no Disney+ where I’m in for now) but checked out the Mandalorian thread and saw baby Yoda can heal and lift a beast with the force.

Here are 3 reasons why I don’t think Baby Yoda is a Gary Sue (although this is only coming from a clip and second hand knowledge)

1) We don’t know Baby Yoda’s backstory. We know the Yoda species has been strong with the Force (we see 2 in the OT and PT and both were Jedi Masters) and Baby Yoda is 50 years old. It is possible that Baby Yoda has had force sensitivity training if not Jedi training. This is still the first 3 episodes so people are willing to wait for the backstory to be revealed.

2) Baby Yoda is not omnipotent. As a baby, it still needs protecting and someone to provide food, etc. There are limits to Baby Yoda. Thus, despite being potentially weaker, the Mandalorian is essential to Baby Yoda’s survival.

3) Baby allows Mandalorian to develop. Mandalorian didn’t believe in the force and as a bounty hunter, relies on his own strength. He now comes to a realization that there is a power he cannot possess and also may not be able to overcome and is wielded by this tiny thing. That brings some interesting character development.

If we want to contrast with Rey.

1) Poor backstory. She is young, had no knowledge of the force, and no strong force lineage yet shows proficiency above masters. Apparently RoS will retcon this so that Rey is a descendent of Palpatine so this is arguably being fixed.

2) Rey is omnipotent. She hasn’t lost a fight or really found herself in a situation where she needed external help to get out of a mess. Her only real “loss” is getting captured by the First Order in TFA. She is also able to solve problems relatively easily on her own that are monumental for others.

3) No character development. This isn’t an issue only for Rey though. Pretty much the only character that has really developed is Kylo and Poe to a lesser extent.

Right.

Also, since you didn't see the episode - after baby Yoda lifts the beast and helps save the main character, the baby passes out from the effort. It was a huge task to undertake, and there was a physical consequence to it.

I don't think Rey has faced any real personal consequence, physical or otherwise.

 

[Psab keel]

The only time I ever felt she was in danger was in TFA when Kylo knocks her out and takes her aboard his ship. Don't worry though, she gets out of that jam real easy.

 

[Joek3rr]

Not sure where mastering the force comes in?

She consciously tried to mind trick the stormtrooper.

She consciously drew upon the force when fighting Kylo.

She consciously drew upon the force to lift the rocks at the end of TLJ. Those were not reflexive actions.

We haven't seen her consciously train though (other than with her lightsaber against a rock)

I'm not necessarily arguing that Rey is not adept with the force - its obvious she is.

But every argument made for her uncanny ability to assimilate and use it with no training or prior kniwkedge, only reinforces why there should be no issues with a creature twice her age with no apparent training also using it to equal or greater degree.

Remove Rey from Star Wars. Does the baby Yoda's abilities raise eyebrows?

But look, every instance she uses the Force is when she or someone else is in danger. If someone sat Rey down and lift all those rocks over there, I bet she couldn't do it. Now if was move all those rocks or someone you care about is going to die, she can suddenly do it.

And by all accounts this is something that she is dealing with in TROS. The inability to tap into the Force when it's not a crisis.

EDIT

Which incidentally we something similar with Luke. When people lives are at stake(death star) or his own(Wampa cave) He can tap into the Force. But when there's no crisis he has troubles.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I would say the formation was about right. Maybe a tad tight, but not by much.

Look at the B-29 formations instead. Also, in both cases, these were high-altitude bombers. One of their defenses was being far enough from the target it reduced antiaircraft effectiveness. It... is a lot harder to translate that into three-dimensional space combat than most content providers manage to pull off.

The problem is we know that ships have a top speed. And they can't go faster then those speeds. Take the Resistance bombers. They are shown to be going slow. But if they were continually accelerating. They could started the bombers further back, then they would be going faster.

The top speed is what they reach when they're going flat-out in a straight line. And, even then, it's more of a mass/energy thing. For the size and purpose of the ship, how big and powerful can you make the engines before their own mass starts decreasing performance again. Related, how much power is too much? I.e., would go unused for most of the engine/craft's operational life, or wouldn't be able to be used without tearing apart the structure.

In ROTS, Anakin and Obi-Wan had launched for the Invisible Hand maybe a couple minutes before we first see them, and Oddball's squadron was just forming up with them. They were still accelerating toward their objective, and nowhere near top speed in that furball. In TLJ, efficiency was not a concern. The smaller Resistance ships were redlining the engines, and the more powerful ships were matching their output to the slowest among them. This is where Einstein gets involved. Diminishing returns, power versus result. For available engine output, as a ship's velocity continues to increase, they'll pass a point where their acceleration curve starts flatting out. It takes more and more energy to go faster. Until, to reach the speed of light in realspace, they'd have to expend infinite energy. Anything below that is on the efficiency curve. They were trying to outdistance the First Order, so any acceleration at all was good, no matter how increasingly slight.

In all cases, "top speed" is better phrased as "maximum velocity before power consumption exceeds performance benefit". *heh* I wonder if starfighters have "rev limiters", like cars in countries with fixed and enforced speed limits below the actual top speed of the cars...

 

[cboath]

She had no problem lifting all the little stones on Ach To and searching out and finding the cave...had no issues putting herself in a trance or whatever to get in that coffin thing to get to the SD.

 

[AJTaliesen]

Baby Yoda is barely a character. It's a moving prop so far.

Also, sorry, but I'm tired of people who claim Rey isn't Mary Sue "proving" it by failing to understand what a Mary Sue is. It's not a direct synonym for powerful character. Morgan Freeman in Bruce Almighty isn't a Mary Sue.

Mary Sue is a wish fulfillment character. Naturally good at everything, in spite of humble beginnings where no one understood how great she is, now the really special people see what a diamond in the rough this misunderstood self sacrificing good natured super genius is.

It's not even necessarily bad. I enjoyed the Drizzt Do'Urden Forgotten realms stories, in spite of the fact that Drizzt is a classic Mary Sue.

But it is what it is. Wish fulfillment writing.

We don't know what baby Yoda is yet, but the signs so far don't point to wish fulfillment. Possible future Deus ex machina at worst. More likely just a macguffin.

 

[Psab keel]

I'll just leave this right here:

 

[HeartBlade]

Right.

Also, since you didn't see the episode - after baby Yoda lifts the beast and helps save the main character, the baby passes out from the effort. It was a huge task to undertake, and there was a physical consequence to it.

Cool. Did not know that and makes sense. Baby is also 50.

 

[teecrooz]

Had this been posted?

 

[patrickivan]

Had this been posted?

Spoiler

I'm paraphrasing. C3P-0: oh my they fly ; Finn: They fly now! ; Poe: they fly now...

I guess this is new to the First Order Troopers

Do Storm Troopers not have comms built into their helmets? I always believed that going back to the PT, that these helmets had some varying degrees of comms and HUDS, et c... Now it really seems like they can barely stop smoke, and are pretty much just white buckets with black lenses.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

First Order might've stripped things down and just focused on the appearance. OT buckets had internal comms, per ANH. But that same trooper also carried a hand comlink, for some reason.