Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Pre-release)

Kamikaze is still used today (terrorist attacks at a small and big scale) due to their potential for big damage. The reason why armies is not used is because of 2 big reasons:
1) the cost of human life (way too high)
2) the mental difficulty of a suicide attack (need to convince a solider to give up their life)

Fortunately in Star Wars, there is a way to offset this with droids. Droids can be programmed to fly ships and we know they can fly them well in clone wars. It’s possible the Empire didn’t use them because they didn’t see the Rebellion as a big enough threat to require such as sacrifice and since they rely on guerrilla warfare, didn’t have big enough targets.
 
So to parallel it...at the end of BTTF2 the Delorean gets struck by lightning and Doc goes back to 1885. But the car was just hovering, there was no 88 mph in the equation anywhere. So we can either say, yep, that's a plot hole and they mucked up their own rules or we can say that when the Doc opened the door of the car in 2015 that door opening really did look diferent, so they surely made some mods to the car so that it could skip the 88 mph part just that once.

I don’t think I ever recognized this paradox in BTTF2! Wow, now that is really going to bother me.
It is definite a similar example but my own feeling is that we have 7 films worth of history that speak to what does and what does not happen in the SW Film Saga, whereas by the time of BTTF2, the lore and physics of that McFly Film Universe was presented only in one other film, which is to say I am much more easily talked into accepting certain unusual events as one clearly cannot cover everything over the course of one movie.

I have made it no secret how I feel about TLJ* and yet somehow, even this point in the film, this event which to me failed in almost every way it possibly could fail, wasn’t even the worst thing about TLJ.

But regarding this event:

Why didn’t Rian have Admiral Akkbar do this deed? Don’t say it is because Disney wanted to lean on younger talent and less on the originals (who would likely be dying off soon due to age, therefore being to risk to set a franchise on), because the character who make the event happen is unknown before this film and dies in this film. Probably would have endeared itself to more of the fans that have been shut out by the ST if some emotional gravity is put into it by having a character whom is beloved make that sacrifice.

Regadless of that, IF there is to be some fairly unknown-to-most-in-the-galaxy, super secret, one off, Ace-up-your-sleeve maneuver that if not entirely saves the day at the very least gets mud on the carpet, spits in the punch bowl, drops a few F bombs, and kicks over the TV while escorted in handcuffs toward the awaiting cruiser, it should be a throwaway moment of no importance (or better yet, not be in the film at all) and not some critical moment that means the survival of the Resistance. The event (though spectacular to see on screen) deserves a good creative answer, but an answer from the same bag of tricks the other 7 films used. It is too difficult to accept that the magic answer is so magical that it breaks from the reality we have been watching across 7 films.


Regarding IX, the I must admit the first teaser footage I saw, with John Williams score, was really befinning to pull me back in. Something about this last trailer reversed it for me. IDK. I hope JJ knocks it out of the park. I am hoping for that.

*My loud and voluminous critiques of The Last Jedi have unanimously been about the writer’s choices and the director’s choices, which then ultimately sit with the producers’ choices. Everything else, the props, costumes, sets, ships, sound, the FX, was on the level of what I have come to expect in SW, and making changes to characters or story only, would be enough to put this film among the best. The technical aspects of TLJ do not suffer as the story/direction/overall vision does.
 
Does anybody think the Poe storyline would have been better if Holdo or her second in command as a traitor to the Resistance?

I think TLJ’s Poe storyline could have remained the same but would have had a stronger impact if Holdo was tricked by her second in command, being told that there was a high ranking officer that betrayed the resistance. Remove the your mom joke for Poe hurting but not crushing the First Order ship despite it being a suicide mission and Holdo could have legitimate worries that Poe is the traitor, thereby justifying her harsh attitude to him early in the movie. Have maybe after her arrest reveal that the second in command was the traitor, Holdo flying the ship to stop the First Order despite being a high ranking officer because she felt guilt that her misjudgment hurt the alliance and we get a more sympathetic character, making her death more meaningful.

The idea of a high ranking officer be a traitor would also be a good setup for a reveal in IX if the leaks are true.
 
Point this out since despite the plot hole in BttF, I can forgive it for 2 reasons:

1) time travel isn’t well explained. It’s the fusion power + 88mph moving horizontally. In the air, maybe the propulsion allows for time travel, although not enough to control the destination

2) Doc is likable. The moment he gets struck and disappears, you think oh no, what happened to Doc and forget it’s a plot hole. With Holdo, she was antagonistic, her actions didn’t make sense, she wasn’t a likable character and thus people are likely to criticize her actions. I think that’s why some people say Akbar should have been the person since if Akbar did the maneuver, fans might have liked it better since it was by a beloved character as an epic send off (hyperdrive ramming being lore breaking nonewithstanding)
 
Okay so let's just take the films. No books no Clone Wars.

If the only time we see this is in TLJ. And we've never seen before and we've never see it again. Then wouldn't the logical extrapolation be that there was something unique to that scenario that allowed it to occur? Something unique either to Raddus or the Supremacy?
There was nothing unique about the situation other than it had never been done before in any of the movies for reasons I have already explained. It was simply a big ship going to hyperspace aimed at another big ship that resulted in taking out a whole lot of other ships. Just a poorly conceived and selfish jump the shark method of giving a meaningless character a glorified exit.
 
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to be fair.... kamikaze pilots are a thing, and we currently don’t fly fighter jets into bases.

planes into buildings happens... pretty devestatingly, but the answer isn’t “why don’t we build a huge plane and crash it into them?”

i loved that TLJ shot. It’s maybe one of my fave moments in the series, in one of the weakest flicks

I still enjoy TLJ, I just skip the casino bit.

(haha... I have no idea why I’m always commenting on your stuff. I almost always agree with you...you just also always make me wanna comment)

And I always welcome your comments.

Kamikaze pilots are a thing but they were highly trained fanatics that were well aware of what they were going to do long before they did it, not an Admiral in an Oscars after party dress. Lets really drag it into today and highlight how drones were used to take out a huge part of the Saudi oil refining capabilities without the loss of one human combatant. Sure, it looked spectacular but as soon as I saw the horizon filling fleets of tightly packed ships on both sides in the new trailer, I actually laughed because of it. I should be gasping, not laughing.
 
I’m actually confused on what is canon and non-canon in the Star Wars verse now.

From my understanding, everything that isn’t the movies or Disney books post 2014 are non canon.
Other way round -- every book and comic and video game prior to George retiring and the sale of LFL is "Legends". Since George didn't bother to keep up with it, he reserved the right to use or overwrite anything in it, so it was never on the same footing as the films (and, later, Clone Wars, which he took a direct hand in). With his retirement, that is no longer the case, and the Story Group can ensure that stuff in the movies, stuff in the cartoons, and stuff published in books and comics and such is all consistent, and therefore on the same level of authoritative canon. This also doesn't mean all the old stuff is gone. A lot of it was internally contradictory, or contradicted by the films... or just bad. This way, it's all a grab bag to draw from. Much of the KOTOR era, the Kenobi novel, things like that -- they work well and are generally held to be reliable supporting material and have been referenced in canon, even though they themselves are not. Other things are just going to quietly disappear.

About all that is gone is the stuff from Truce at Bakura on. Basically, everything post-ROTJ is being told differently than it was in the various versions of the EU. And even then, I can see those novels and comics being the garbled stories from a thousand years on of the events we're seeing in the ST. "From a certain point of view."
If it didn't happen in the movies, it didn't happen. Just as it appears that to some if it did happen in the movies, it still didn't happen.
It's pretty to think so. But the stuff in the current-canon ancillary material is what all future authors, screenwriters, and comic artists have to work from and stay consistent with. So even if it isn't read by everyone, or liked by fewer, that's the way the story goes until such time as the cosmic reset button get's hit and it's started over again from scratch.
 
Until some executive or entirely new story group decides to throw all or part of it out when it doesn't suit the current arrangements, EU "cough"
There's a permanence that comes with a completed film and that is why its all that matters. There's only been one George Lucas that can dispute that point and he's out of the picture and there's not a snow balls chance in hell of seeing any ST special editions.
 
Regarding BTTF II... Not a plot hole. In the first one the lightning was directed into the car's power supply, with the desired effect. In II the lightning strike was random with the unintended effect of triggering the time circuit. No need to go 88 mph. But that's just my take away.
 
ok, the problem is advanced experimental shields isn’t a good enough explanation from a fan perspective or a layman perspective.

Fan perspective - hyperspace as alternative dimension
A hardcore fan knows that hyperspace is an alternative dimension ships enter when they reach the speed of light to travel even faster. Ships essentially pop out of hyperspace as a result. Coordinate input in hyperspace is important because of mass objects (stars and planets) cast a “shadow” with their gravitational pull which can pull the ship out of hyperspace. There is a lot unknown about hyperspace but if the hyperspace ram ks used, Holdo should have poped out of space with the ship in the same place as the center ship, ripping it apart from the inside (if that is how objects entering the same location in a dimension work)


Casual viewer - hyperspace is just going very fast
Let’s assume going Lightspeed is just going super fast. Going fast entails more damage when you drive into something, which is why Holdo went Lightspeed in her ramming. Why don’t other ships do this when desperate?

The jump point for the system, was behind the fleet. The Raddus basically hyperspace jumped through the Supremacy.

Presumably the targets shields would protect it, under normal circumstances.
 
If all we have are 7 movies preceding it, (well 8 or 9 if you count Solo and Rogue One) and it's never happened, even when the stakes couldn't be more dire (the threat of loosing a planet) - and then to have a character with with little to no screen presence or history in previous said films, who's displayed zero tactical competence - pull off something like that...

There is no logical extrapolation. That's the problem, in a nutshell. The story is being shown to us - extrapolation shouldn't be necessary.

The logical extrapolation is ask wtf was that all about? ;) Because it doesn't make sense that it hasn't been used before. If this was unique to other similar situations, then the difference that makes this possible needs to be accounted for. Imo, of course.
But who's to say it wasn't tried before, with meh results? Or possibly, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the targets shields protect it. Or if you roll hyperspace missiles and the enemy has an interdictor ships, your fancy hyperspace missiles are useless now.

I'm curious if the Revenge of the Sith Incredible Cross-sections will get a canon publishing. And if the mention about the ship that fractures a planet will be left in or not. Cause that kinda defeats the purpose of the Death Star. But as of now it's a Legends book.
 
Until some executive or entirely new story group decides to throw all or part of it out when it doesn't suit the current arrangements, EU "cough"
There's a permanence that comes with a completed film and that is why its all that matters. There's only been one George Lucas that can dispute that point and he's out of the picture and there's not a snow balls chance in hell of seeing any ST special editions.
The only reason they got rid of the EU, is because they wanted to get rid of the Canon hierarchy. George retconned much of the EU content with the PT and TCW.
 
There was nothing unique about the situation other than it had never been done before in any of the movies for reasons I have already explained. It was simply a big ship going to hyperspace aimed at another big ship that resulted in taking out a whole lot of other ships. Just a poorly conceived and selfish jump the shark method of giving a meaningless character a glorified exit.
That's pretty unique then.

The only reason it was shown, is because Rian wanted to show what that might look like. Particularly since Han mentions you can fly through a star. And the other canon material showed it.

EDIT
Going back and listening to the audio commentary, it sounds like Rian was inspired by the Revenge of the Sith Incredible Cross-sections.
"So this moment, um, here, of what Holdo is about to do. Going through the- blasting through it. This was another very early thing where you know we'd heard about in these movies about, um, if you don't do your calculations correctly you could smash through a planet, while you know trying to do- go through hyperspace and the idea of what would that look like."
 
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Regarding BTTF II... Not a plot hole. In the first one the lightning was directed into the car's power supply, with the desired effect. In II the lightning strike was random with the unintended effect of triggering the time circuit. No need to go 88 mph. But that's just my take away.
While that's as good an explanation as any, it's still a plot hole since there's nothing in the film explaining it (would have been easy to add dialogue to that effect). It never bothered me since I like the films so much, plus they're goofy comedies without much dramatic tension in the story. If TLJ was a better story I might just ignore the rediculous ramming thing (like I ignore how silly the space worm is in ESB) but it's really the least of the problems with that movie. IMO
 
Point this out since despite the plot hole in BttF, I can forgive it for 2 reasons:

1) time travel isn’t well explained. It’s the fusion power + 88mph moving horizontally. In the air, maybe the propulsion allows for time travel, although not enough to control the destination

2) Doc is likable. The moment he gets struck and disappears, you think oh no, what happened to Doc and forget it’s a plot hole. With Holdo, she was antagonistic, her actions didn’t make sense, she wasn’t a likable character and thus people are likely to criticize her actions. I think that’s why some people say Akbar should have been the person since if Akbar did the maneuver, fans might have liked it better since it was by a beloved character as an epic send off (hyperdrive ramming being lore breaking nonewithstanding)
BTTF2- the car is in flight mode and just got a heavy strike of lightning- I can see the flight circuits (which were burnt out during this event) taking the car up to 88+ in an instant. My bigger concern is that the fire trails do a loop to loop and I do not think Doc had inertial dampeners installed, plus he would be arriving in the old wets in mid air tumbling end over end- not a good way to land...

TLJ- I do wish Akbar was the one to send the ship into it's hyper-ramming. It would be a far better end for the character than just being blown out into space. Holdo seemed to just exist as an antagonist and her self sacrifice was more of a surprise than a grand final gesture.

Oh well, enough hatred and anger for the last film. We have a new one getting close to release and I personally am looking forward to seeing. Like any other film in existence, I am sure I will wish they did something differently, but I am not predisposed to hate it as some seem to be.
 
In the first one the lightning was directed into the car's power supply, with the desired effect. In II the lightning strike was random with the unintended effect of triggering the time circuit. No need to go 88 mph. But that's just my take away.
The car had to go 88 mph at the end of the first one. Otherwise Marty could have just parked at the feet of the clock tower hooked up and waiting for the lightning. And had to do 88 in every single instance of travelling through time except the end of pt 2.

plus they're goofy comedies without much dramatic tension in the story.
Did we see the same movie? :oops::lol:
If TLJ was a better story I might just ignore the rediculous ramming thing (like I ignore how silly the space worm is in ESB) but it's really the least of the problems with that movie. IMO
I'm willing to overlook some plot holes if I'm emotionally invested in a movie.
That’s the point I think. (y)
 
In the first one the lightning was directed into the car's power supply, with the desired effect. In II the lightning strike was random with the unintended effect of triggering the time circuit. No need to go 88 mph. But that's just my take away.
The car had to go 88 mph at the end of the first one. Otherwise Marty could have just parked at the feet of the clock tower hooked up and waiting for the lightning. And had to do 88 in every single instance of travelling through time except the end of pt 2.

plus they're goofy comedies without much dramatic tension in the story.
Did we see the same movie? :oops::lol:
If TLJ was a better story I might just ignore the rediculous ramming thing (like I ignore how silly the space worm is in ESB) but it's really the least of the problems with that movie. IMO
I'm willing to overlook some plot holes if I'm emotionally invested in a movie.
That’s the point I think. (y)
 
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The only reason they got rid of the EU, is because they wanted to get rid of the Canon hierarchy. George retconned much of the EU content with the PT and TCW.
That was a definite benefit, but the main reason was, when they looked at it, they saw how much just doesn't work. In Splinter of the Mind's Eye, Luke meets Vader for the first time. Then he meets Vader for the first time in Empire Strikes Back. Which of the four Boba-escapes-the-sarlacc stories do you go with? Things like that have been laboriously, close-one-eye-and-squint-with-the-other rationalized over the years, but easier to just set them aside and maybe someday use them as inspiration for some new story.

With the new post-ROTJ era, they could have included all of that. ~30 ABE is where the books were about to, with Fate of the Jedi, Millennium Falcon, and Crucible. We have Thrawn in Rebels. We have the Maw in Solo. We have Luke establishing a training center for a new generation of Jedi... Where things are with the Skywalkers could easily be made to fit if they'd set up the ST slightly differently. Rey is Jaina, the only surviving Solo child, and Ben is Ben, Luke's son. Something happens and he goes Dark Side, and Jaina has to put him down, as she did her twin brother a few years earlier.

Only LFL faced the edict of George that Luke never gets married. And, presumbaly, never has a child. Which impacts a whole lot, and the ripples keep spreding. "If not this, than is that still workable?" As with the pre-ROTJ stuff, it was just easier to set all of it to one side and use what they could.
 
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