Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Pre-release)

[Joek3rr]

one thing about the Holdo maneuver that bugs me, when was it invented and why didn’t it revolutionize the First Order/Galactic Empire’s entire battleship strategy?

We know even x-wings have hyperspace travel (Luke used it on his x-wing to get to Dagobah) and we don’t need human pilots (as seen with the Clone Wars in the separatist army). If you have robots that can fly ships, why not create remote drones that can shoot almost as well as human pilots and kamikaze into enemy ships. I’m sure the Empire can develop ships with a certain payload and ship structure to ensure maximum damage on impact.

Maybe that’s why Poe is riding the space horse.

Presumably it's shields that prevent one ship from ramming into another. Though that has its own problems. I mean technically if shields on your ship can protect against that kind of force, then your ships should be invincible. But this is Star Wars.

So hence the experimental shields on the Raddus. They needed some sort excuse why this worked this time, and why it doesn't always work. So super-duper one of a kind experimental shields, that allow the Raddus to what it does.

But either way, the ability to impact objects while traveling in hyperspace, is been around since 2005. But apparently not any fans read the Revenge of the Sith Incredible Cross Sections book, and asked 'why don't they do that in battles?'

 

[Joek3rr]

You say its not an ancillary explanation yet none of it happened in the films before hand but in a cartoon and you even liked a post by another user further down that basically points out that you're on shaky ground at best if you use ancillary material when discussing events in the films. Like the other 98% of people that see this film, albeit on Blu Ray for mine, my "headcannon" is in the right place.

So just because something never happened in the films before. Then they shouldn’t do it? That's boring.

 

[AJTaliesen]

I just wanna know what the look on peoples faces was when whoever said “Oh! Oh! What if we had them riding horses across the top of a star destroyer rising out of the ice in space?!?!” pitched the idea..

if you watch any of his other movies, that's how the JJ writing process works. It's a series of "Hey, wouldn't it look cool if..." statements followed by "ok, now how can we string all of this together?"

 

[Psab keel]

The overall point is that if you can just use one ship to ram another and wipe out an entire fleet, then why would any army logically risk losing troops, ships and other resources when they could send an unmanned battle ship and ram it into a fleet taking them out in one fell swoop?

One would think that a tactic like that would completely change the way entire wars are fought because it minimizes the risk of loss. Instead a convoluted answer lies in books that few have read, but give way to an explanation to justify a cool looking visual that ultimately doesn't fit into the narrative structure established in the previous films.

Even a fictional story has to follow a certain logic that dictates whether an audience can suspend their disbelief enough to buy into the fictional story.

Did it look cool? Absolutely. But it undermines entire space battles because the most obvious question is, why didn't people think of this before? Is it because Rian Johnson is a genius? No. It just means he wrote himself into a corner and this was the easiest way out of it.

 

[Psab keel]

So just because something never happened in the films before. Then they shouldn’t do it? That's boring.

This assumes that we are opposed to new concepts being introduced into the story which is not true at all, though if that new idea doesn't gel with the rest of the story, it doesn't belong. Additions should deepen previous ideas rather than contradict them.

Setting a new precedent into the story structure, in this case ramming ships into one another at lightspeed, should logically now set in motion a type of warfare that would minimize the loss of life which would result in fewer casualties but make it boring to watch because it means the characters have less of a risk of dying ie. robbing the story of dramatic tension.

The reason we get invested in the space battles is because at any moment a pilot could get shot out of the sky. By using Rian Johnson's idea it negates the necessity for pilots to personally man fighters, thus eliminating their risk of dying.

Again the visual looked cool, but when you think about it, it undermines the battles in the previous movies.

What will likely happen is that it will be mostly forgotten in the following films .

Or it could set the stage for it to be used all the time, which would mean they would have to come up with an even more complicated explanation for having space battles in a movie called Star Wars.

 

[Joek3rr]

This assumes that we are opposed to new concepts being introduced into the story which is not true at all.

Setting a new precedent into the story structure, in this case ramming ships into one another at lightspeed, should logically now set in motion a type of warfare that would minimize the loss of life which would result in fewer casualties but make it boring to watch because it means the characters have less of a risk of dying ie. robbing the story of dramatic tension.

The reason we get invested in the space battles is because at any moment a pilot could get shot out of the sky. By using Rian Johnson's idea it negates the necessity for pilots to personally man fighters, thus eliminating their risk of dying.

Again the visual looked cool, but when you think about it, it undermines the battles in the previous movies.

What will likely happen is that it will be mostly forgotten in the following films .

Or it could set the stage for it to be used all the time, which would mean they would have to come up with an even more complicated explanation for having space battles in a movie called Star Wars.

Why though? The experimental shields, as far as can tell explain why its not been seen before.

And anyways were is it ever said you can't ram into things? "We could fly right through a star." Okay if you can fly through a star why not another ship?

 

[Psab keel]

My reasoning is in the previous two posts.

Besides, if the ship itself is being used as a battering ram, why would it need shields? The debris alone will cause catastrophic damage.

One of two things will happen in the story now. Either it will be forgotten and never used or mentioned in the movies again, which is the most likely outcome.

Or it will be used all the time, which will result in space battles that happen at lightspeed using unmanned ships. Which would mean it would be harder to be emotionally invested in the battle because the stakes are low.

No one said you couldn't ram into things at lightspeed. It just hasn't been used before as a battle tactic. There is a difference between the two things and I think you're changing the subject to justify your argument.

 

[Bigdaddy]

I only watched TLJ once, I must have missed the dialogue explaining the experimental shields to the audience.

 

[laszlo]

Why though? The experimental shields, as far as can tell explain why its not been seen before.

And anyways were is it ever said you can't ram into things? "We could fly right through a star." Okay if you can fly through a star why not another ship?

It’s amazing that you can’t see how fundamentally flawed this piece of story telling was is TLJ and how it resonates awfully with all that occurred before and after that episode.
I’m not after a TLJ critique at all - but that single story telling choice destroyed the cannon of all before and after in the Star Wars universe. It’s so plain to see.

 

[Psab keel]

Shields are irrelevant in this instance too if they are using the ship as a battering ram. If anything you'd think shields would be a disadvantage if you want the ship to blow into a million pieces to take out as much of the enemy as possible.

 

[Joek3rr]

My reasoning is in the previous two posts.

Besides, if the ship itself is being used as a battering ram, why would it need shields? The debris alone will cause catastrophic damage.

One of two things will happen in the story now. Either it will be forgotten and never used or mentioned in the movies again, which is the most likely outcome.

Or it will be used all the time, which will result in space battles that happen at lightspeed using unmanned ships. Which would mean it would be harder to be emotionally invested in the battle because the stakes are low.

No one said you couldn't ram into things at lightspeed. It just hasn't been used before as a battle tactic. There is a difference between the two things and I think you're changing the subject to justify your argument.

Actually the entirety of the ship would turn into plasma. No debris. And if Star Wars was remotely scientific, the impact would result the destruction of everything ship in the system, and surface of Crait would be scorched.

 

[Joek3rr]

It’s amazing that you can’t see how fundamentally flawed this piece of story telling was is TLJ and how it resonates awfully with all that occurred before and after that episode.
I’m not after a TLJ critique at all - but that single story telling choice destroyed the cannon of all before and after in the Star Wars universe. It’s so plain to see.

Because ships can run into things? Which isn't new. Or the experimental shields?

 

[Psab keel]

Exactly. Shield are therefore irrelevant in this case. Plus why not do it all the time against the enemy. It's a much easier thing than actually fighting.

 

[Joek3rr]

I only watched TLJ once, I must have missed the dialogue explaining the experimental shields to the audience.

It's not explained. But it's inferred, by the fact that it can hold up a bombardment that last for most of the film. Undoubtedly it was creation of the Story Group. I mean I thought the Raddus had special shields while sitting in the theater.

 

[Joek3rr]

Exactly. Shield are therefore irrelevant in this case. Plus why not do it all the time against the enemy. It's a much easier thing than actually fighting.

Because under normal circumstances the ship that's doing the ramming would vaporize in flash of light, with no damage done to the enemy craft.(though as I've mentioned before opens its own can of worms)

That's why liken the Raddus's experimental shields to that of shape charge. They stay intact just long enough, allowing the plasma to slice through.

'The heavy cruiser plowed into the Supremacy’s broad flying wing, the force of the impact was at least 3 orders of magnitude greater than anything the Raddus’ inertial dampeners were rated to handle. The protective field they generated failed immediately but the heavy cruisers’ augmented experimental shields remained intact for a moment longer before the unimaginable force of the impact converted the Raddus into a column of plasma that consumed itself. However the Raddus had also accelerated to nearly the speed of light at that point of catastrophic impact and the column of plasma that it became was hotter than a sun and intensely magnetized. This plasma was then hurled into hyperspace along a tunnel opened by the null quantum field generator. A tunnel that collapsed as quickly as it had been opened. Both the column of plasma and the hyperspace tunnel were gone, in far less than an eye blink. But that was long enough to rip through the Supremacy’s hull from bow to stern. Tear a ragged hole in a string of Star Destroyers flying in formation with it. And finally wink out of existence in empty space, thousands of kilometers beyond the FO taskforce.'

 

[Psab keel]

I presume that's from the novel.

 

[ConvergencePro]

The Raddus is equipped with experimental shields. One of the reasons it can withstand a continual bombardment throughout the film. When the Raddus impacts the Supremacy, instead of vaporizing in a blinding flash plasma, the shield's energy field holds moments longer than a standard shield. Allowing the plasma traveling at nearly the speed of light to slice through the Supremacy and the ships behind it, like some super-duper shape charge.

Without those shields, the impact would have looked more like this. And the damage would have been isolated to the Supremacy. That is if the Supremacy's shields didn't protect it.

I think the point hes making is almost nothing in the film remotely explains these experimental shields outside of that god awful “gong effect” (which just looks like yet another obnoxious CGI effect shoved our faces that every other film today is stuffed full of.. Looking at you Marvel) and the whole thing comes across far more as “things happening so other things can happen” than it does an actual real thing

 

[Joek3rr]

I presume that's from the novel.

Yeah. It's a techno mumbo-jumbo loophole that explains why what happened, happened. And why it's never happened before. And why, probably, unless someone in-universe gathered a bunch scan data, it won't happen again. But then again who knows what JJ will chuck at us!

 

[Joek3rr]

I think the point hes making is almost nothing in the film remotely explains these experimental shields outside of that god awful “gong effect” (which just looks like yet another obnoxious CGI effect shoved our faces that every other film today is stuffed full of.. Looking at you Marvel) and the whole thing comes across far more as “things happening so other things can happen” than it does an actual real thing

Probably because they didn't want to interject some Star Trek level techno mumbo-jumbo in a Star Wars film. I mean they clearly elude to it. Cause I left the theater thinking the Raddus had some better then normal shields.

And didn't TPM already do that, did it not?

I also recently discovered you can see shield impacts on the Lucrehulks in ROTS.

 

[harrisonp]

And this is the issue that many people have with it. If it’s not in the movie then 99% of us don’t care.

I wasn’t averse to the light speed ram because it broke canon, I just had never really thought of it before or that it would work that way and it rubbed me the wrong way initially. I don’t particularly care now, but if objects entering/exiting hyperspace can have such a clear effect on other objects nearby then I guess it explains another question from TLJ which is “why not just jump the FO fleet ahead of the Resistance fleet” during the chase. That’s some slight logical consistency if taken in that way.

edit to add: in TPM we see those shields get deployed, as well as the rules clearly laid out in regards to how they work IN THE MOVIE. It’s not left up to assumptions. The lasers can’t pass through but the droids can.