Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

[The Brahma Bull]

... because to me, it still retained the soul of the series.

That's in interesting POV. IMHO the soul of Star Wars was the character of Luke Skywalker and Johnson ripped that out. He destroyed everything the heroes of not only my childhood achieved on their quest against the evil empire. Luke refused to kill his father and, not to forget, even the emperor. So why should this character, that was developed over three movies to be exactly like he was in the end of episode 6 only think about (with a sword in his hand) to kill his nephew in his sleep?

The whole plot, the side plots, Reys parents, the weapon dealers everything in episode 8 was poor wrting and directing. It's like we make everything different, destroy the original trilogy, which is the whole soul of this franchise, and look for new fans. This ain't Star Wars anymore.

 

[DarthLee]

By the end of the 1st act and through the 2nd act, I "got" Luke... By the end of the 2nd act and into the 3rd, I "got" Vadar..

By "getting" Luke and then Vadar,, I "got" Anakin.. and the developing relations with the Jedi and more importantly Obiwan..

As it stands.. through act 1 and now through act 2....I just cant "get" Kylo.. or Rey

To me they are just not very deep characters... regardless of dialog or not..very on the surface..

Maybe I just need to wait on the "new" act 3

 

[cboath]

I think that makes sense, though, when you look at the A-to-B-to-C of it. I mean, you might disagree and think "But you could still help," but from Luke's perspective, his bad judgment had led to (1) Ben turning to evil, (2) Ben destroying the Jedi school, (3) Ben converting a bunch of former students to evil (side note: still dunno what happened to them...), and (4) Ben joining the First Order, which made them immensely more powerful than they already were.

So, basically, Luke's moment of weakness, however fleeting, gave rise to yet another incredibly powerful dark side user who is poised to destroy the galaxy.

With that in mind, I can see where "The best help I can give is by staying the hell out of it" might be Luke's conclusion. He realizes, though, that this was wrong, and that in turn leads to his final act of sacrifice.

The slight issue remaining though would be in the final flashback - Luke saying he was already gone. He didn't actually push him over the edge. He believed he was gone at that point. That was more of the point when Ben realized it for himself and left. His leaving is more evidence he doesn't learn frankly. He was a hothead then who freaked and trashed the place afterwards. In TFA something didn't go his way and he trashed the place. In TLJ, Snoke demeaned him and he trashed the elevator and his helmet.

He's no supreme leader frankly.

In hindsight, Luke's story wasn't that bad outside of the academy bit. Ben says to Rey - you can't be doing this (projecting herself to him) the effort would kill you. Luke didn't like being a legend (apparently) but figured out that was pretty much the only way to help the cause. So, he projected himself MUCH longer and did much more than what snoke did - and the effort was more than he could take. But, he because the legend that will inspire generations.

I still don't buy the staying out of it part. Might have been more compelling if he was with them all along, but shut off from the force so he/they couldn't be located through the force and his final act was reconnecting and showing what he could do. Which i guess, technically, he did anyhow. They just glossed over what something like that would take earlier in the flick - i missed it the first couple times I saw it actually. Therefore at the end, you're left thinking he just had enough and left - not that he spent everything to the point of death to save everyone.

Oh, and why is it the dice survived after his death? They should have disappeared before he died, not well after.

 

[Kylash]

Because Luke used The Force to keep them there long enough for Kylo to find them because he's one with the Force now?

 

[robn1]

...In ROTJ the rebels blew up the Death Star and a bunch of Star Destroyers, and the Empire's top leadership went down with it all. In the extended version they showed celebrations on various planets that were previously under Empire control. That ending inferred that the Empire had fallen.

So, after everything the rebels and what I would assume the new Republic fought to gain back, how was the First Order able to build itself up to the level it was at by TFA? And how did they fund something of that scale? A planet sized weapon. Dreadnought Ships. And the Mega-Class Star Dreadnought (Snoke's ship). What kind of line of credit do you need to create a fleet like that and how do you build it without the new Republic being completely clueless?

The same way Germany did after WW I.

 

[The Brahma Bull]

The same way Germany did after WW I.

Sorry, but just no. In SW the war just began after episode 6 with many imperial planets remaining and ongoing fighting. That's not even close to what happened in Germany after World War 1. Well, Germany had no occupied planets, but the fighting stopped and there were some shifts in goverment and system.

 

[Zuiun]

That's in interesting POV. IMHO the soul of Star Wars was the character of Luke Skywalker and Johnson ripped that out. He destroyed everything the heroes of not only my childhood achieved on their quest against the evil empire. Luke refused to kill his father and, not to forget, even the emperor.

Luke didn't "refuse" to kill the Emperor. He literally took his saber to strike the Emperor down. He was full on going to slice that wrinkly old dude to pieces.

Later, when he tossed his Lightsaber aside, it wasn't him just not wanting to kill Vader or the Emperor, but flat out refusing to play the game anymore, even if that meant the Emperor would kill him. He saw the futility in it. That exactly planted the seeds for what The Last Jedi is doing.

Luke thought that with the Sith gone, he would be free to rebuild the Jedi order. But that wasn't going to be the case. Right under his nose, literally within his own relative, the Sith were rising again. And just like with before, when he was going to strike down the Emperor in anger, and almost killed his father in anger, he saw the exact same thing happening again. The cycle starts over.

So he did the only thing he thought would break the cycle for good: he removed himself from it.

So why should this character, that was developed over three movies to be exactly like he was in the end of episode 6 only think about (with a sword in his hand) to kill his nephew in his sleep?

It wasn't him that was exactly the same. It was the situation. Over and over and over. Just like we've had from the previous 6 movies: the Jedi get powerful, the Sith get powerful, the Jedi get powerful, the Sith get powerful... and on and on. We are even told that his has basically been going on for generations.

So Luke did change. He broke the cycle.

It's like we make everything different, destroy the original trilogy, which is the whole soul of this franchise, and look for new fans. This ain't Star Wars anymore.

If we just got a rehash of the same old struggles, that'd be boring.

The prequels, flawed as they are, didn't ruin the original trilogy. It's still just as good (and also flawed) as it ever was. Likewise, this doesn't destroy the original trilogy, either. Unlike Lucas tinkering with those original films, this doesn't rewrite a single thing in those original films. What this does do, however, is expand the story in a new direction. I find that more exciting than just telling the same story with different characters (even the same characters, just really old now).

 

[DarthLee]

Luke didn't "refuse" to kill the Emperor. He literally took his saber to strike the Emperor down. He was full on going to slice that wrinkly old dude to pieces.

Later, when he tossed his Lightsaber aside, it wasn't him just not wanting to kill Vader or the Emperor, but flat out refusing to play the game anymore, even if that meant the Emperor would kill him. He saw the futility in it. That exactly planted the seeds for what The Last Jedi is doing.

Luke always had anger issues..

1) The comment to his uncle..in ANH....anger/frustration

2) the fist kill from the turret on the Falcon.. almost pleasure

3) the anger with Yoda before he new he was Yoda

4) the "you will find only what you bring in"

5) and only arrogance would have allowed him to be captured on the Endor moon.

Luke had issues..

His refusal to fight was a selfish act. He could not defeat both Vadar and the Emperor, so he played on his father's emotions. Took the highest probability of his own survival.

So he did the only thing he thought would break the cycle for good: he removed himself from it.

Again..

If we just got a rehash of the same old struggles, that'd be boring.

But those ARE the struggles between Sith and Jedi, just like politics. Cant just make up new struggles "just because"....

The prequels, flawed as they are, didn't ruin the original trilogy. It's still just as good (and also flawed) as it ever was.

I didnt find the prequels flawed... maybe some bad acting...but not flawed

And I didnt find the OT flawed at ALL...thats what we base everything on....

Likewise, this doesn't destroy the original trilogy, either.

It could...to some.. if it doesnt finish well...

Unlike Lucas tinkering with those original films

Adding CGI didnt change the story..,,,

this doesn't rewrite a single thing in those original films. What this does do, however, is expand the story in a new direction. I find that more exciting than just telling the same story with different characters (even the same characters, just really old now).

Its the base... the root..that to some..cant quite tie it in

PS: Now that I think of it.. maybe Yoda was right this whole time... Too old to train

 

[The Brahma Bull]

Luke didn't "refuse" to kill the Emperor. He literally took his saber to strike the Emperor down. He was full on going to slice that wrinkly old dude to pieces.

Later, when he tossed his Lightsaber aside, it wasn't him just not wanting to kill Vader or the Emperor, but flat out refusing to play the game anymore, even if that meant the Emperor would kill him. He saw the futility in it. That exactly planted the seeds for what The Last Jedi is doing.

But he did not step out of the game. He still saw the good in his father, so he wanted to bring him back on the light side. The scene where Luke tries to kill the emperor is always confusing to me because of the visuals. It seems Vaders sword is before Lukes which looks like Luke was swinging away from Palpatine.

Luke thought that with the Sith gone, he would be free to rebuild the Jedi order. But that wasn't going to be the case. Right under his nose, literally within his own relative, the Sith were rising again. And just like with before, when he was going to strike down the Emperor in anger, and almost killed his father in anger, he saw the exact same thing happening again. The cycle starts over.

So he did the only thing he thought would break the cycle for good: he removed himself from it.

It wasn't him that was exactly the same. It was the situation. Over and over and over. Just like we've had from the previous 6 movies: the Jedi get powerful, the Sith get powerful, the Jedi get powerful, the Sith get powerful... and on and on. We are even told that his has basically been going on for generations.

So Luke did change. He broke the cycle.

But isn't that the point? That's why he stepped away from being a jedi but does not explain his actions to Ben. Either killing him or try to train him would not break the cycle. But Luke, from all we've learned about him, would never really think of killing his own nephew.

The question that's coming to my mind is how did Snoke get his hands on Ben when he was with Luke all the time and why did Luke therefore not get his hands on Snoke? So he steps away. He leaves a map to find him but does not want to be found and just wants to die. He finds his answers, the same one Kylo Ren finds for himself and the sith

If we just got a rehash of the same old struggles, that'd be boring.

The prequels, flawed as they are, didn't ruin the original trilogy. It's still just as good (and also flawed) as it ever was. Likewise, this doesn't destroy the original trilogy, either. Unlike Lucas tinkering with those original films, this doesn't rewrite a single thing in those original films. What this does do, however, is expand the story in a new direction. I find that more exciting than just telling the same story with different characters (even the same characters, just really old now).

The problem is that the direction did not change. TLJ had many scenes coming close to TISB and ROTJ. Rey and Luke on the island had similarities to Luke and Yoda on Dagoba. Rey, Snoke and Ren in the throne room didn't feel any new either. And even Yoda and Luke came to the same conclusion at the end of the movie Luke tells Kylo Ren the exact opposite. Rey takes the jedi books with her after Luke explained her that the jedi have to end.

Luke and Kylo Ren have the same mindset over Sith and Jedis. So does it end or does the cycle go on, just without Jedis and Sith, because both think their "religion" must end? I don't see a new direction. We had Jedis and Sith. What's next? Light atheists and dark atheists? Or Jedis, Siths and lighter and darker atheists?

 

[DarthLee]

But he did not step out of the game. He still saw the good in his father, so he wanted to bring him back on the light side. The scene where Luke tries to kill the emperor is always confusing to me because of the visuals. It seems Vaders sword is before Lukes which looks like Luke was swinging away from Palpatine.

He doesnt think that Vadar would actually protect the Emperor over him, so once he sees that its 2 on 1...he quits...

Luke has quit more than once...so him quitting now, doesnt surprise me.

But isn't that the point? That's why he stepped away from being a jedi but does not explain his actions to Ben. Either killing him or try to train him would not break the cycle. But Luke, from all we've learned about him, would never really think of killing his own nephew.

Luke has never been very courageous... Steps up because he has Obiwan... Steps up because he has Han and Leia.. Steps up because he thinks he has Vadar..

I know im stepping on toes.. but think about it...

The question that's coming to my mind is how did Snoke get his hands on Ben when he was with Luke all the time and why did Luke therefore not get his hands on Snoke? So he steps away. He leaves a map to find him but does not want to be found and just wants to die. He finds his answers, the same one Kylo Ren finds for himself and the sith

Maybe he feels weak.. maybe he feels that Snoke will convince him of what he wanted the whole time..do be rid of both Jedi and Sith

The problem is that the direction did not change. TLJ had many scenes coming close to TISB and ROTJ. Rey and Luke on the island had similarities to Luke and Yoda on Dagoba. Rey, Snoke and Ren in the throne room didn't feel any new either. And even Yoda and Luke came to the same conclusion at the end of the movie Luke tells Kylo Ren the exact opposite. Rey takes the jedi books with her after Luke explained her that the jedi have to end.

Luke and Kylo Ren have the same mindset over Sith and Jedis. So does it end or does the cycle go on, just without Jedis and Sith, because both think their "religion" must end? I don't see a new direction. We had Jedis and Sith. What's next? Light atheists and dark atheists? Or Jedis, Siths and lighter and darker atheists?

Agreed....and Kylo's beliefs is what brings me back to why Luke never faced Snoke

 

[Mr Webber]

Warning,,,,If graphic language is not your thing, dont watch this.

 

[DarthLee]

"Remember kids.. it's not important if its of high quality.. only if it makes money.... so because TFA made alot of money... i cant be... it doesnt.. its ergo, its good.."

Wow.. I didnt know he said that...

 

[karmajay]

So, after everything the rebels and what I would assume the new Republic fought to gain back, how was the First Order able to build itself up to the level it was at by TFA? And how did they fund something of that scale? A planet sized weapon. Dreadnought Ships. And the Mega-Class Star Dreadnought (Snoke's ship). What kind of line of credit do you need to create a fleet like that and how do you build it without the new Republic being completely clueless?

In the Aftermath trilogy we see 1) Palpatine did send equipment and personnel to the unknown part of the galaxy including the Hux father/son to begin training a new army. Upper echelon of Imperial military (that still live) head that way after they lose the Battle of Jakku. 2) We also see right away Mon Mothra starts limiting the military buildup so the New Republic can gain allies and no one thinks they are just doing a power grab.

In Bloodlines we see that 1)The FO, which the New Republic does not have a lot of info about has been taking over some outer rim systems. Most planets still tire of war so most of the New Republic senate just wants to use diplomacy even though they are kinda doing the German WW2 thing of saying they are full but then taking more. 2) There are some politicians that both funnel money to the FO and intentionally confuse the discussion about them in the Senate.

So a combination of the New Republic not wanting to get into another war (remember including the Clone Wars the galaxy has been run ragged), the FO getting some help from people that want power and the Empire back, and some help from Palpatine's initial plans before RotJ helped it all occur.

In a lot of media (both books and comics) the FO also tries hard to stay away from places which would really bring the New Republic to t hem AND eliminate any clues when they do do bad stuff. (In Cobalt squadron ships come to a certain planet every night and dump bodies the FO has killed into the acid sea).

 

[DarthLee]

In the Aftermath trilogy we see 1) Palpatine did send equipment and personnel to the unknown part of the galaxy including the Hux father/son to begin training a new army. Upper echelon of Imperial military (that still live) head that way after they lose the Battle of Jakku. 2) We also see right away Mon Mothra starts limiting the military buildup so the New Republic can gain allies and no one thinks they are just doing a power grab.

In Bloodlines we see that 1)The FO, which the New Republic does not have a lot of info about has been taking over some outer rim systems. Most planets still tire of war so most of the New Republic senate just wants to use diplomacy even though they are kinda doing the German WW2 thing of saying they are full but then taking more. 2) There are some politicians that both funnel money to the FO and intentionally confuse the discussion about them in the Senate.

So a combination of the New Republic not wanting to get into another war (remember including the Clone Wars the galaxy has been run ragged), the FO getting some help from people that want power and the Empire back, and some help from Palpatine's initial plans before RotJ helped it all occur.

In a lot of media (both books and comics) the FO also tries hard to stay away from places which would really bring the New Republic to t hem AND eliminate any clues when they do do bad stuff. (In Cobalt squadron ships come to a certain planet every night and dump bodies the FO has killed into the acid sea).

This all seems like Palpatine's/Sidious doing...

So with Snoke dead.. and the fact that we only saw Sidious thrown down a shaft....and not actually dead... could it be??

 

[robn1]

Sorry, but just no. In SW the war just began after episode 6 with many imperial planets remaining and ongoing fighting. That's not even close to what happened in Germany after World War 1. Well, Germany had no occupied planets, but the fighting stopped and there were some shifts in goverment and system.

The war with the Empire officially ended about a year after ROTJ with the battle over Jakku. The First Order built up behind the scenes over some number of years.

 

[gedmac66]

In the Aftermath trilogy we see 1) Palpatine did send equipment and personnel to the unknown part of the galaxy including the Hux father/son to begin training a new army. Upper echelon of Imperial military (that still live) head that way after they lose the Battle of Jakku. 2) We also see right away Mon Mothra starts limiting the military buildup so the New Republic can gain allies and no one thinks they are just doing a power grab.

In Bloodlines we see that 1)The FO, which the New Republic does not have a lot of info about has been taking over some outer rim systems. Most planets still tire of war so most of the New Republic senate just wants to use diplomacy even though they are kinda doing the German WW2 thing of saying they are full but then taking more. 2) There are some politicians that both funnel money to the FO and intentionally confuse the discussion about them in the Senate.

So a combination of the New Republic not wanting to get into another war (remember including the Clone Wars the galaxy has been run ragged), the FO getting some help from people that want power and the Empire back, and some help from Palpatine's initial plans before RotJ helped it all occur.

In a lot of media (both books and comics) the FO also tries hard to stay away from places which would really bring the New Republic to t hem AND eliminate any clues when they do do bad stuff. (In Cobalt squadron ships come to a certain planet every night and dump bodies the FO has killed into the acid sea).

Appreciate your knowledgeable explanation . However , not everyone gets to see how things progress/ed by reading other Star Wars related media between ‘ films ‘ . That’s another point of contention many have . The lack of any explanation ( or unsatisfactory , glossed over ones ) for credible plot points made in ‘ films ‘ prior to TLJ .
These films should be self contained as far as ‘ furthering ‘ the stories go ( within the overarching saga ) , with any additional revelations sought regarding them - only if ... wanted / needed / available / affordable etc ...

 

[Greenie]

It seems to me that these new movies are being made as spectacular blockbuster hits to make money not because there is a story to tell. So when plot points are questioned or explainations are required, they are set up or retconned into supplementary SW media. Because everything is now canon and they think they are building a universe but no one should have to go deep into Star Wars lore just to make sense of a movie.

I think im beginning to accept that Disney's Star Wars is now the equivalent of the EU. Some of it good, some of it (really) bad but ultimately just Star Wars fans lucky enough to get an opportunity to play in that universe. The 79 pages above show that fans never agree but there is less to disagree about in the movies made by the man who created the galaxy far far away. GL.

 

[The Brahma Bull]

The war with the Empire officially ended about a year after ROTJ with the battle over Jakku. The First Order built up behind the scenes over some number of years.

Sorry got my information from videos from guys who talk about the new canon. I don't read it myself. But I always had in mind, well from BF2 actually, that the emperor gave some orders to rebuild the empire and that there were lots of planets still in imperial control.

 

[Zuiun]

The war with the Empire officially ended about a year after ROTJ with the battle over Jakku. The First Order built up behind the scenes over some number of years.

The change Lucas made to the end of RotJ always bothered me (one of many changes that bothered me). The fact that every planet was celebrating made absolutely no sense and completely destroyed the conversation Tarken had in A New Hope when they talked about finally disbanding the senate. He specifically says the regional governors will keep the systems in line, meaning that the Empire was way more than just the Death Star and most of those "celebrating planets" would surely still be under the thumb of the Empire. Sure, destroying two super weapons would deliver a crippling blow, but it's not like the Empire is going to fall apart the second the second Death Star goes boom.

 

[Laspector]

In regards to the discussion of "Luke would never do that!" it makes me wonder--(and let me hear your take on this)

Hypothetical situation: Suppose Tolkien was a current modern day writer and the first Lord of The Rings book was published in 1977. It instantly becomes a smash hit and a pop culture phenomenon ala Star Wars. Then say (in this instance Tolkien being a slower writer than G.R.R. Martin) he gets The Two Towers out around the late 90s (prequel time). An entire generation has grown up with the tale of the brave Hobbit Frodo and his heroic quest to get the One Ring to the fires of Doom. The story is discussed and dissected for decades as was Star Wars.

Fast forward to 2017. Finally, he publishes the end of the story with The Return of The King. Remember, for forty years people have grown up and loved the heroic Frodo. Only to get to the end and find that their childhood hero, one of the very few who can withstand the temptation of The Ring, the one person in all of Middle Earth who was given the responsibility of being the Ring Bearer of the one true Ring, actually, technically fails his quest. In the last minute he gives in to the unholy temptation and claims the Ring for himself. It is only by sheer circumstance (or divine intervention, whichever you will) that Gollum is there to bite off the Ring and haplessly fall into the fiery pit, thus destroying the Ring.

Wait, what happened? You're telling me that my lifelong hero, the brave and true Frodo, Hobbit of all Hobbits, who I've modeled my life after for forty years, at the end turns into a little bitch and gives in to The Ring? Succumbs to the temptation and, in essence, turns evil at the end!!?? No way!!! Even though he returns to good after The Ring is taken away from him that's not my Frodo!!! Frodo would NEVER do that!! Tolkien has raped my childhood!!

Anyway, it was just a thought I had......If the entire Star Wars saga had been written at one time and at the end Luke was indeed tempted to kill Ben Solo yet stops himself and goes out the way he did, I sincerely doubt there would be this much hatred towards the way the story played out.

It's just all relative, I think.

Thoughts?