Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Pre-release)
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
That's fair. Let me try this. Wasn't Luke at one point going to be a girl? Didn't they have a concept poster for it? And in the final product, isn't Obi-Wan more of a mentor to Luke more than a father figure? It's not uncommon to have a relationship like they did with a teacher or a mentor without labeling them as another parent. What made Obi-Wan so important was that over the course of the movie, Obi-Wan was all Luke really had with his other parents being dead. The real father/son dynamic never really took off until 2/3 into ROTJ when it really became an issue for Luke in dealing with Vader.
I think future Star Wars movies can continue to have a lot of it's recognizable themes present and relatively unchanged without basing it on a single gender. Here me out here. Luke is a character who wants to get out of his dull boring life and become a part of something greater, Leia is a fighter who will do whatever it takes to protect her people from tyranny, Han is a scoundrel who wants to get by without getting too involved, Lando is a person of bad deeds who seeks to redeem himself, and everyone in the galaxy is in a constant struggle with good and evil. None of these themes specifically state that these characters have to be a certain gender, so where exactly is the danger of Star Wars not being 'Star Wars' simply because it's a girl instead of a boy?
That's fair. Let me try this. Wasn't Luke at one point going to be a girl? Didn't they have a concept poster for it? And in the final product, isn't Obi-Wan more of a mentor to Luke more than a father figure? It's not uncommon to have a relationship like they did with a teacher or a mentor without labeling them as another parent. What made Obi-Wan so important was that over the course of the movie, Obi-Wan was all Luke really had with his other parents being dead. The real father/son dynamic never really took off until 2/3 into ROTJ when it really became an issue for Luke in dealing with Vader.
I think future Star Wars movies can continue to have a lot of it's recognizable themes present and relatively unchanged without basing it on a single gender. Here me out here. Luke is a character who wants to get out of his dull boring life and become a part of something greater, Leia is a fighter who will do whatever it takes to protect her people from tyranny, Han is a scoundrel who wants to get by without getting too involved, Lando is a person of bad deeds who seeks to redeem himself, and everyone in the galaxy is in a constant struggle with good and evil. None of these themes specifically state that these characters have to be a certain gender, so where exactly is the danger of Star Wars not being 'Star Wars' simply because it's a girl instead of a boy?
cboath
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
I don't see a girl being a problem.
However.....
I'd bet Disney does.
This is a company who, at nearly the last second, changed the title of an animated film 'Rapunzel' to 'Twisted' (i think) because they didn't think boys would want to go see a movie focused on a girl. I think if the intial concept was a girl that it'd get changed into a fraternal twin kind of thing - just like luke/leia - a boy and a girl who this time do the same thing as a brother/sister team. However, i'd guess they'd both be being trained by luke and can have dual and separate 'missions'.
Who says the girl can't go out and kick ass and take names? From the EU books I read, Mara Jade was able to pretty much do just that.
I don't see a girl being a problem.
However.....
I'd bet Disney does.
This is a company who, at nearly the last second, changed the title of an animated film 'Rapunzel' to 'Twisted' (i think) because they didn't think boys would want to go see a movie focused on a girl. I think if the intial concept was a girl that it'd get changed into a fraternal twin kind of thing - just like luke/leia - a boy and a girl who this time do the same thing as a brother/sister team. However, i'd guess they'd both be being trained by luke and can have dual and separate 'missions'.
Who says the girl can't go out and kick ass and take names? From the EU books I read, Mara Jade was able to pretty much do just that.
nickytea
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Ehhh, I don't know. They're prepping a sequel to their billion-dollar, female-lead "Alice in Wonderland."
Ehhh, I don't know. They're prepping a sequel to their billion-dollar, female-lead "Alice in Wonderland."
Timmythekid
Sr Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
She's got a dinky pistol, doesn't have a critical role in the Endor battle apart from being a punch line for Han, and is only there because of the "what the hell do we do with everyone else?" problem that plagues RotJ. Seriously, what does she add, apart from giving Luke someone to talk to about Vader before he leaves? I said she can fight when she needs to, that STILL doesn't make her a front line solider - she's a member of the imperial senate. Even in the EU (god help me) she takes over as the political head of the NR, then chancellor when Mon Mothma dies, primarily concerned with putting the galaxy back together. I remember numerous times she's lamenting the fact that she didn't get to spend the time training as a Jedi that Luke did BECUASE of the choices she made, and the duty she felt because of her training and upbringing. Just because one stinking cover illustration gives her a lightsaber doesn't change any of that.
I'm actually reallystarting to question why you need her to be "Leia, Warrior Princess" so badly - to the point that you'll base your entire evaluation of her character off of something she did in ONE of six hours of film. What is it about having Leia as the aristocratic statesman she is, you know, ACTUALLY WRITTEN AS that gets up your nose so much? You seem to have this peculiar bent that every woman needs to be Boudica in order to have any validity in your world. It's a narrow view, and one peculiar in someone who seems to want to claim to be Champion of Womens' Rghts in Space Opera.
TOTALLY.
She's got a dinky pistol, doesn't have a critical role in the Endor battle apart from being a punch line for Han, and is only there because of the "what the hell do we do with everyone else?" problem that plagues RotJ. Seriously, what does she add, apart from giving Luke someone to talk to about Vader before he leaves? I said she can fight when she needs to, that STILL doesn't make her a front line solider - she's a member of the imperial senate. Even in the EU (god help me) she takes over as the political head of the NR, then chancellor when Mon Mothma dies, primarily concerned with putting the galaxy back together. I remember numerous times she's lamenting the fact that she didn't get to spend the time training as a Jedi that Luke did BECUASE of the choices she made, and the duty she felt because of her training and upbringing. Just because one stinking cover illustration gives her a lightsaber doesn't change any of that.
I'm actually reallystarting to question why you need her to be "Leia, Warrior Princess" so badly - to the point that you'll base your entire evaluation of her character off of something she did in ONE of six hours of film. What is it about having Leia as the aristocratic statesman she is, you know, ACTUALLY WRITTEN AS that gets up your nose so much? You seem to have this peculiar bent that every woman needs to be Boudica in order to have any validity in your world. It's a narrow view, and one peculiar in someone who seems to want to claim to be Champion of Womens' Rghts in Space Opera.
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Considering the recent trend of female leads in what would be considered "action" movies, I wouldn't be surprised to see them try that with this film, at the very least a supporting female character who is key to the plot. Times they are a changin' in this regard and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Arndt takes that road and LucasDisney would be ALL over it. They would love it. And I don't think STAR WARS needs a patriarchal based story to work and am an old STAR WARS fan.
Considering the recent trend of female leads in what would be considered "action" movies, I wouldn't be surprised to see them try that with this film, at the very least a supporting female character who is key to the plot. Times they are a changin' in this regard and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Arndt takes that road and LucasDisney would be ALL over it. They would love it. And I don't think STAR WARS needs a patriarchal based story to work and am an old STAR WARS fan.
Timmythekid
Sr Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
No danger, it just automatically buys more mythological resonance because we've been telling ourselves these same stories for several thousand years. in those stories, Father is always in conflict with Son, either as avenger, redeemer, or usurper, and exploring how that plays out is what we've done over and over again since the dawn of recorded history. It doesn't mean it CAN'T work another way, but it won't buy itself the built-in thematic recognition that playing along with stories which are practically part of our DNA in the Western world at this point does. There is no such culturally ingrained structure for Daughter in the West - decry it all you want, and it's certainly based on thousands of years of male-dominated political structures, but it's also reality.
No danger, it just automatically buys more mythological resonance because we've been telling ourselves these same stories for several thousand years. in those stories, Father is always in conflict with Son, either as avenger, redeemer, or usurper, and exploring how that plays out is what we've done over and over again since the dawn of recorded history. It doesn't mean it CAN'T work another way, but it won't buy itself the built-in thematic recognition that playing along with stories which are practically part of our DNA in the Western world at this point does. There is no such culturally ingrained structure for Daughter in the West - decry it all you want, and it's certainly based on thousands of years of male-dominated political structures, but it's also reality.
Timmythekid
Sr Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Hasbro might be the deciding factor sadly enough - how well do female SW characters sell? Honest question, and I suspect no one at Disney or Lucas would examine as far as "was the character given anything interesting to do in the movie to justify an action figure?". Based on the peg-warmers I've seen whenever I've been to the toy aisle, I have the impression that Leia figures just don't move like Luke figures.
And who led the marketing campaign for that? Bet you knew Johnny Depp was in it before you had any clue who Alice was. One of the many, many problems with that film was the weight placed on the Hatter, rather than spending time on Alice herself, and it happened because Johnny Depp sells tickets. Dollars to doughnuts Depp has already agreed to return if they're prepping a sequel, and I doubt if he hadn't that we'd be talking about it. I kept screaming "ALICE is the hero, Tim! Pat attention to the story you're trying to tell!!!!" internally everytime Depp got film time to go bannanas.
Hasbro might be the deciding factor sadly enough - how well do female SW characters sell? Honest question, and I suspect no one at Disney or Lucas would examine as far as "was the character given anything interesting to do in the movie to justify an action figure?". Based on the peg-warmers I've seen whenever I've been to the toy aisle, I have the impression that Leia figures just don't move like Luke figures.
And who led the marketing campaign for that? Bet you knew Johnny Depp was in it before you had any clue who Alice was. One of the many, many problems with that film was the weight placed on the Hatter, rather than spending time on Alice herself, and it happened because Johnny Depp sells tickets. Dollars to doughnuts Depp has already agreed to return if they're prepping a sequel, and I doubt if he hadn't that we'd be talking about it. I kept screaming "ALICE is the hero, Tim! Pat attention to the story you're trying to tell!!!!" internally everytime Depp got film time to go bannanas.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Agreed, all the more reason why they will feel comfortable and compelled to turn that on it's head.
Agreed, all the more reason why they will feel comfortable and compelled to turn that on it's head.
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Yeah, but Leia is an ancillary character compared to Luke. Ahsoka is a secondary character compared to Anakin and Obi wan in the Clone Wars yet she has really galvanized a new generation of young female fans. And I think we as collectors or prop makers or enthusiast tend to over estimate how much the toy sell through of STAR WARS influences content. I think the brand is so strong, content dictates the toy market. I think the image of toys controlling STAR WARS is simply because Lucas retained those rights and it's been assumed wrongly ever since that drives LucasFilm.
Yeah, but Leia is an ancillary character compared to Luke. Ahsoka is a secondary character compared to Anakin and Obi wan in the Clone Wars yet she has really galvanized a new generation of young female fans. And I think we as collectors or prop makers or enthusiast tend to over estimate how much the toy sell through of STAR WARS influences content. I think the brand is so strong, content dictates the toy market. I think the image of toys controlling STAR WARS is simply because Lucas retained those rights and it's been assumed wrongly ever since that drives LucasFilm.
Timmythekid
Sr Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
But SW hasn't been really into turning anything on its head - it's a simple black and white morality tale, where you know the beats waaaaaay ahead of time; some details are surprises, but the actual archetypes for these characters, and the way they behave...there's not one surpirse there. Don't misunderstand me, I think there's definetly interesting stories to be told doing that, I just don't know if the rigid mythological world of SW is where those stories go. SW gets by on a LOT of cultural emotional connections to stuff we recognize at a gut level because it's been with us so long.
Funny, I thought fans have been whining for decades that Lucas made all of his decisions based on what toys would sell. Are we already into the golden haze of nostalgia about Lucas, just a few months after his exit? Cool! And, Ashoka is an interesting case - when she first appeared, I turned to my wife and said in "Hi, I'm Tweengirl-Demographa-Tano!". She was utterly awful, and EVERYTHING wrong with market research storytelling - she was written terribly, and had nothing interesting to add apart from cute-factor and "SEE, GIRLS CAN BUY SW STUFF TOO!!!!". She evolved over the past few seasons into a real character though, one who is often more interesting to watch than Anakin, which is....astonishing.
Leia possibly underselling because she was more ancillary was actually part of my point - I suspect anyone in the position to make the call wouldn't dig as deep as "does this character matter in the story". It may be cynical, but I suspect that they wouldn't look further than "what's the sell through on female figures?"-
But SW hasn't been really into turning anything on its head - it's a simple black and white morality tale, where you know the beats waaaaaay ahead of time; some details are surprises, but the actual archetypes for these characters, and the way they behave...there's not one surpirse there. Don't misunderstand me, I think there's definetly interesting stories to be told doing that, I just don't know if the rigid mythological world of SW is where those stories go. SW gets by on a LOT of cultural emotional connections to stuff we recognize at a gut level because it's been with us so long.
Funny, I thought fans have been whining for decades that Lucas made all of his decisions based on what toys would sell. Are we already into the golden haze of nostalgia about Lucas, just a few months after his exit? Cool! And, Ashoka is an interesting case - when she first appeared, I turned to my wife and said in "Hi, I'm Tweengirl-Demographa-Tano!". She was utterly awful, and EVERYTHING wrong with market research storytelling - she was written terribly, and had nothing interesting to add apart from cute-factor and "SEE, GIRLS CAN BUY SW STUFF TOO!!!!". She evolved over the past few seasons into a real character though, one who is often more interesting to watch than Anakin, which is....astonishing.
Leia possibly underselling because she was more ancillary was actually part of my point - I suspect anyone in the position to make the call wouldn't dig as deep as "does this character matter in the story". It may be cynical, but I suspect that they wouldn't look further than "what's the sell through on female figures?"-
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Timmythekid
Sr Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
...you know, I hope they release NOTHING about E7. The conversation has been FAR more interesting without any actual information to discuss.
...you know, I hope they release NOTHING about E7. The conversation has been FAR more interesting without any actual information to discuss.
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Which is often the case. :thumbsup
...you know, I hope they release NOTHING about E7. The conversation has been FAR more interesting without any actual information to discuss.
Which is often the case. :thumbsup
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Because I'm tired of folks here simply writing her off as just a politician when she's clearly more than that. I actually have to argue with folks here just to get them to admit about her other positive traits. When Brian Wood was asked in an interview how Leia could possibly pilot an X-Wing, he had this to say.
"She can handle firearms, she basically takes over her own escape from the Death Star. She survives torture. She BEATS torture, actually. Later we see her on speeder bikes, fixing the Falcon, shooting more dudes, and so on. It's almost insulting to suggest she can't fly an X-Wing, the Rebellion's fighter of choice."
And he doesn't even mention the best part. She successfully manages to hide the Death Star plans into R2 while instructing him to escape to Tatooine and recruit Obi-Wan to her cause. The whole entire film is her plan to destroy the Death Star, and it works! Luke and Han (and Adywan's Chewbacca) may have gotten medals for their deeds, but it was Leia who made all of it possible. And she did it without bickering to the senate about a trade dispute or some boring crap we got in the prequels.
Because I'm tired of folks here simply writing her off as just a politician when she's clearly more than that. I actually have to argue with folks here just to get them to admit about her other positive traits. When Brian Wood was asked in an interview how Leia could possibly pilot an X-Wing, he had this to say.
"She can handle firearms, she basically takes over her own escape from the Death Star. She survives torture. She BEATS torture, actually. Later we see her on speeder bikes, fixing the Falcon, shooting more dudes, and so on. It's almost insulting to suggest she can't fly an X-Wing, the Rebellion's fighter of choice."
And he doesn't even mention the best part. She successfully manages to hide the Death Star plans into R2 while instructing him to escape to Tatooine and recruit Obi-Wan to her cause. The whole entire film is her plan to destroy the Death Star, and it works! Luke and Han (and Adywan's Chewbacca) may have gotten medals for their deeds, but it was Leia who made all of it possible. And she did it without bickering to the senate about a trade dispute or some boring crap we got in the prequels.
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Are we really arguing that Leia wasn't a warrior? I thought that was pretty clear in the movies. She was even runner up for savior of the galaxy (There is another...). She killed Jabba with a chain. Her role in the movies was as a politician. You don't see her do what Padme did, but she was supposed to have more combat training than Padme.
Are we really arguing that Leia wasn't a warrior? I thought that was pretty clear in the movies. She was even runner up for savior of the galaxy (There is another...). She killed Jabba with a chain. Her role in the movies was as a politician. You don't see her do what Padme did, but she was supposed to have more combat training than Padme.
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Anyone ever watch the series Avatar: The Last Airbender? That ran for four seasons and featured a male protagonist. An Avatar named Aang. What do they do with a follow up series? They don't make a spin off, they don't make a side story and they don't make it a mid story. They make a genuine follow up with a female Avatar named Korra. They actually put her name in the title. The show was supposed to be a mere mini-series until it spanned into a multi-season series with season two well under way.
Anyone ever watch the series Avatar: The Last Airbender? That ran for four seasons and featured a male protagonist. An Avatar named Aang. What do they do with a follow up series? They don't make a spin off, they don't make a side story and they don't make it a mid story. They make a genuine follow up with a female Avatar named Korra. They actually put her name in the title. The show was supposed to be a mere mini-series until it spanned into a multi-season series with season two well under way.
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Boba Fett has a cool costume, but that's about it. He dies like a chump. James Cameron hasn't directed a good movie since Terminator 2.
Sorry, was my post too late? haha
As long as 7, 8, and 9 are well written, have ties to the original trilogy (because frankly I don't care about the PT), have strong themes, VISUAL METAPHORS (something completely missing from the PT), and strong characters, then they will be good.
It'd be nice to see Hollywood have the balls to make a single one off film that doesn't require a spin off, reboot, sequel, prequel, or remake.
Boba Fett has a cool costume, but that's about it. He dies like a chump. James Cameron hasn't directed a good movie since Terminator 2.
Sorry, was my post too late? haha
As long as 7, 8, and 9 are well written, have ties to the original trilogy (because frankly I don't care about the PT), have strong themes, VISUAL METAPHORS (something completely missing from the PT), and strong characters, then they will be good.
It'd be nice to see Hollywood have the balls to make a single one off film that doesn't require a spin off, reboot, sequel, prequel, or remake.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
As was Batman: The Animated Series.
But the real point is this. Just a few posts ago, Timmythekid said "Hasbro might be the deciding factor sadly enough - how well do female SW characters sell?". And he's got a point. Toy sales seem to play a big factor in determining what to produce these days, especially children's shows. The Legend of Korra is going to have it's second season this year, and for a show that you claim is made for children (and children love toys), the number of toys that it has produced is....
Zero. Unless you count iphone cases, mouse pads, drinking mugs and a dog bowl as toys for children.
So not having any toys period, I think I can safely say that 'The Legend of Korra' was made without concern over toy sales. Yet Star Wars should be concerned if their toyline can sell a series if the main character was female? That's just ridiculous. It's Star Wars. As long as they make some cool looking trooper or a nifty starship design, it should be fine.
As was Batman: The Animated Series.
But the real point is this. Just a few posts ago, Timmythekid said "Hasbro might be the deciding factor sadly enough - how well do female SW characters sell?". And he's got a point. Toy sales seem to play a big factor in determining what to produce these days, especially children's shows. The Legend of Korra is going to have it's second season this year, and for a show that you claim is made for children (and children love toys), the number of toys that it has produced is....
Zero. Unless you count iphone cases, mouse pads, drinking mugs and a dog bowl as toys for children.
So not having any toys period, I think I can safely say that 'The Legend of Korra' was made without concern over toy sales. Yet Star Wars should be concerned if their toyline can sell a series if the main character was female? That's just ridiculous. It's Star Wars. As long as they make some cool looking trooper or a nifty starship design, it should be fine.
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