Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Should throw Luke and the star Jedi in a TARDIS... :lol
Should throw Luke and the star Jedi in a TARDIS... :lol
Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Pre-release)
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Solo4114
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Right, and I don't disagree. Either you need to figure out a way to continue THIS story (and personally, I'm not sure it warrants continuation), or you need to junk it and come up with something totally new.
From my perspective, the story of the OT characters is done. They all lived happily ever after. The end. You don't actually NEED them to tell another story. Soem folks, of course, disagree and think that they have to somehow tie the next trilogy to the OT. Personally, I think too much of that invites too many limitations on the story, and offers too many options for "Hey, 'memba these folks?!" cameos, which I felt was a real weakness in the PT.
It's like my rants on "branding" in films. If you have to rely on the "brand" to sell the film...is your story really all that solid in the first place?
BUT, if we're going to d 7-9, then it's gotta be in the spirit of the older films, and that tends to mean a male protagonist. That doesn't discount him having a strong, capable, independent female character alongside him, but if we're going to be slavishly devoted to what came before, then you can't half-ass the job.
Right, and I don't disagree. Either you need to figure out a way to continue THIS story (and personally, I'm not sure it warrants continuation), or you need to junk it and come up with something totally new.
From my perspective, the story of the OT characters is done. They all lived happily ever after. The end. You don't actually NEED them to tell another story. Soem folks, of course, disagree and think that they have to somehow tie the next trilogy to the OT. Personally, I think too much of that invites too many limitations on the story, and offers too many options for "Hey, 'memba these folks?!" cameos, which I felt was a real weakness in the PT.
It's like my rants on "branding" in films. If you have to rely on the "brand" to sell the film...is your story really all that solid in the first place?
BUT, if we're going to d 7-9, then it's gotta be in the spirit of the older films, and that tends to mean a male protagonist. That doesn't discount him having a strong, capable, independent female character alongside him, but if we're going to be slavishly devoted to what came before, then you can't half-ass the job.
NakedMoleRat
Legendary Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Especially after him mom died and he became, Little Orphan Annie! :lol
Thanks, I'm here all week!
Especially after him mom died and he became, Little Orphan Annie! :lol
Thanks, I'm here all week!
Bigdaddy
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
"Lord Vader says you may now laugh about little orphan Annie"
thank god for Robot Chicken, it says what we all think :lol
"Lord Vader says you may now laugh about little orphan Annie"
thank god for Robot Chicken, it says what we all think :lol
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
What else could it be? Your asking for something based on only your experience. How do you know that a father/daughter relationship cannot be like your typical father/son relationship? We have had stories like that many times. One story in particular has been making subtle rounds in here.
Or how about from the DC universe?
If you read the whole entire scene as it's presented, you could switch Kate Kane out with a male character and you wouldn't need to change the dialogue.
What else could it be? Your asking for something based on only your experience. How do you know that a father/daughter relationship cannot be like your typical father/son relationship? We have had stories like that many times. One story in particular has been making subtle rounds in here.
Or how about from the DC universe?
If you read the whole entire scene as it's presented, you could switch Kate Kane out with a male character and you wouldn't need to change the dialogue.
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Yeah, I always just assumed this was a no-brainer.
If there isn't going to be any continuation of any of the already existing story lines, then there is absolutely no need or reason to continue the episodic numbering. Title it as if you would a spin-off, such as "Star Wars: The Search for More Money" or something like that.
Yeah, I always just assumed this was a no-brainer.
If there isn't going to be any continuation of any of the already existing story lines, then there is absolutely no need or reason to continue the episodic numbering. Title it as if you would a spin-off, such as "Star Wars: The Search for More Money" or something like that.
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
I always knew I liked you. :thumbsup
Right, and I don't disagree. Either you need to figure out a way to continue THIS story (and personally, I'm not sure it warrants continuation), or you need to junk it and come up with something totally new.
From my perspective, the story of the OT characters is done. They all lived happily ever after. The end. You don't actually NEED them to tell another story. Soem folks, of course, disagree and think that they have to somehow tie the next trilogy to the OT. Personally, I think too much of that invites too many limitations on the story, and offers too many options for "Hey, 'memba these folks?!" cameos, which I felt was a real weakness in the PT.
It's like my rants on "branding" in films. If you have to rely on the "brand" to sell the film...is your story really all that solid in the first place?
BUT, if we're going to d 7-9, then it's gotta be in the spirit of the older films, and that tends to mean a male protagonist. That doesn't discount him having a strong, capable, independent female character alongside him, but if we're going to be slavishly devoted to what came before, then you can't half-ass the job.
I always knew I liked you. :thumbsup
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Just because it continues the same story doesn't mean it has to follow the same themes as well.
Just because it continues the same story doesn't mean it has to follow the same themes as well.
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
What else could it be? It could be that Star Wars, at least in it's mainstream, is very typical in it's relationships. The male mentorship, the dick dad, etc. If you want consistency with the PT and the OT you can't go switching the roles around.
As fun as Big Daddy would be it's not a "Star Wars main story" thing. Again, would love to see some bad ass bounty hunter version of it in a spin off but it's not working in the main story. At least not as the primary characters of the main story.
What else could it be? It could be that Star Wars, at least in it's mainstream, is very typical in it's relationships. The male mentorship, the dick dad, etc. If you want consistency with the PT and the OT you can't go switching the roles around.
As fun as Big Daddy would be it's not a "Star Wars main story" thing. Again, would love to see some bad ass bounty hunter version of it in a spin off but it's not working in the main story. At least not as the primary characters of the main story.
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
So two thirds through the story you completely change the formula? Won't happen.
Star Wars is ALL ABOUT it's overarching themes.
So two thirds through the story you completely change the formula? Won't happen.
Star Wars is ALL ABOUT it's overarching themes.
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
I agree, I'm just not the one associating themes with genders.
I agree, I'm just not the one associating themes with genders.
Solo4114
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Well, but it does.
Again, if you're trying to make the new movies harken back to the old ones, then expect a rehashing of the same old themes, at least partially. Again, if we're doing 7-9 and trying to tie them to 1-6 by shoving old characters in, then that probably means the same kinds of themes, too.
We already have precedent for this, too. Even within just the OT itself, the first and third films hit many of the same notes. We open on Tatooine for the story of the main characters. We finish with a Death Star assault coupled with a sort of commando raid. On the Death Star, we have a lightsabre duel. A father figure dies saving Luke from a greater danger, too.
Again, it's the branding thing. If you're going to ape what came before because you feel the need to connect the two, then it's a tricky thing to figure out how far you go with that. If you need to tie the two together with characters, then chances are the same scenarios will reappear in some form or other. A resurgent Imperial Remnant or threat from within the Republic itself. An ordinary boy who discovers he has extraordinary powers. A father/mentor figure who guides him, but ultimately falls. The hero challenging another dark father figure, perhaps being defeated initially but returning more powerful than before, etc., etc.
Could they swap a girl in for the role? Sure. And it'd probably be perfectly entertaining if the rest of the story was good. But they won't. Because if they're trying to hew to the old stuff, they're gonna limit just how far out they go with the new stuff.
You know what? I'll say this. For all the myriad flaws of the PT, I do give Lucas credit for NOT simply re-telling the OT but with a sad ending. Although TPM follows many similar lines, Lucas still really did a LOT that was different with the PT.
And look where it got him. The PT is reviled by many. Some of that, I'd argue, is because it's simply different from the OT (although there are plenty of legitimate complaints about it as stories).
But THAT is why we'll see a male protagonist, why we'll see OT characters, and why the story will basically be a play-it-safe reconstruction of the older films, at least in broad strokes. Not saying it can't be entertaining; I sincerely hope it is. But my bet is that they'll play it safe rather than take a chance on wholly new characters with no appearance of the old ones whatsoever. As a business venture, particularly one that will, in effect, re-launch the franchise, they will play it safe. That means male protagonist, possibly with daddy issues of some kind.
Well, but it does.
Again, if you're trying to make the new movies harken back to the old ones, then expect a rehashing of the same old themes, at least partially. Again, if we're doing 7-9 and trying to tie them to 1-6 by shoving old characters in, then that probably means the same kinds of themes, too.
We already have precedent for this, too. Even within just the OT itself, the first and third films hit many of the same notes. We open on Tatooine for the story of the main characters. We finish with a Death Star assault coupled with a sort of commando raid. On the Death Star, we have a lightsabre duel. A father figure dies saving Luke from a greater danger, too.
Again, it's the branding thing. If you're going to ape what came before because you feel the need to connect the two, then it's a tricky thing to figure out how far you go with that. If you need to tie the two together with characters, then chances are the same scenarios will reappear in some form or other. A resurgent Imperial Remnant or threat from within the Republic itself. An ordinary boy who discovers he has extraordinary powers. A father/mentor figure who guides him, but ultimately falls. The hero challenging another dark father figure, perhaps being defeated initially but returning more powerful than before, etc., etc.
Could they swap a girl in for the role? Sure. And it'd probably be perfectly entertaining if the rest of the story was good. But they won't. Because if they're trying to hew to the old stuff, they're gonna limit just how far out they go with the new stuff.
You know what? I'll say this. For all the myriad flaws of the PT, I do give Lucas credit for NOT simply re-telling the OT but with a sad ending. Although TPM follows many similar lines, Lucas still really did a LOT that was different with the PT.
And look where it got him. The PT is reviled by many. Some of that, I'd argue, is because it's simply different from the OT (although there are plenty of legitimate complaints about it as stories).
But THAT is why we'll see a male protagonist, why we'll see OT characters, and why the story will basically be a play-it-safe reconstruction of the older films, at least in broad strokes. Not saying it can't be entertaining; I sincerely hope it is. But my bet is that they'll play it safe rather than take a chance on wholly new characters with no appearance of the old ones whatsoever. As a business venture, particularly one that will, in effect, re-launch the franchise, they will play it safe. That means male protagonist, possibly with daddy issues of some kind.
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
When the mythological theme is Fathers & sons then they're kind of linked.
Anyhow, I'm done debating. You're only listening to the parts you want to hear and playing the same tune you do on every topic regardless if it makes sense or not.
When the mythological theme is Fathers & sons then they're kind of linked.
Anyhow, I'm done debating. You're only listening to the parts you want to hear and playing the same tune you do on every topic regardless if it makes sense or not.
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
And once again Solo says it better than I ever could. :thumbsup
And once again Solo says it better than I ever could. :thumbsup
Solo4114
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
The themes, by their nature, are intimately connected to the gender of the characters.
A father/son dynamic is different from a father/daughter or a mother/daughter dynamic.
If they're truly interchangeable, and if it literally makes no difference whether we see a male or female protagonist....why do you care in the first place about the protagonist being female?
Simple. Because it's different when it's a girl in the hero role. Women relate to people differently from men, including their fathers and mothers. There's overlap, sure, but if you start playing with those traditional themes, it makes a difference if you change the role to a woman.
Moreover, I would not want a woman in the role purely for the sake of having a woman in the role. I rather doubt the role would be well written, were that the case. It'd come across as tokenism, I expect, and likely a marketing ploy so that they can sell action figures to girls in addition to boys.
If you want strong, independent, capable women in films, particularly action and sci-fi films, then they have to be well-written AS women, not simply as "men with long hair and lady bits." And let's be honest here. If we're keeping to the old formula, you kind of would have to write the female role that way.
Again, I'm not advocating for maintaining the old formula. I think that's rather timid, and would prefer to see entirely new characters and entirely new scenarios other than the old Empire/Rebellion dressed up in new clothes. But realistically, I expect to see more of the same, albeit slightly "modernized."
The themes, by their nature, are intimately connected to the gender of the characters.
A father/son dynamic is different from a father/daughter or a mother/daughter dynamic.
If they're truly interchangeable, and if it literally makes no difference whether we see a male or female protagonist....why do you care in the first place about the protagonist being female?
Simple. Because it's different when it's a girl in the hero role. Women relate to people differently from men, including their fathers and mothers. There's overlap, sure, but if you start playing with those traditional themes, it makes a difference if you change the role to a woman.
Moreover, I would not want a woman in the role purely for the sake of having a woman in the role. I rather doubt the role would be well written, were that the case. It'd come across as tokenism, I expect, and likely a marketing ploy so that they can sell action figures to girls in addition to boys.
If you want strong, independent, capable women in films, particularly action and sci-fi films, then they have to be well-written AS women, not simply as "men with long hair and lady bits." And let's be honest here. If we're keeping to the old formula, you kind of would have to write the female role that way.
Again, I'm not advocating for maintaining the old formula. I think that's rather timid, and would prefer to see entirely new characters and entirely new scenarios other than the old Empire/Rebellion dressed up in new clothes. But realistically, I expect to see more of the same, albeit slightly "modernized."
Bigdaddy
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
To be clear my reference to Hit-girl was not about her gender or parental relationship, I was just pointing out that having a teen or pre-teen in a major role does not mean it has to be a "kids" movie, especially if its well cast. I do think Disney will base the decision on how much money any give concept is likely to bring in, and the main demogragpic they are shooting for is boys. Not saying they should but it is the reality. That being said look at Ahsoka, a cool character that I'm sure drew more girls to starwars than Obi-Wan did.What else could it be? Your asking for something based on only your experience. How do you know that a father/daughter relationship cannot be like your typical father/son relationship? We have had stories like that many times. One story in particular has been making subtle rounds in here.
jme3
Sr Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
The gang of them from TPM and those ones from ROTS...
Yeah, obviously there have to be kids in that galaxy, they just don't seem to fit in the movies. And yeah again; Annie bugged the hell out of me. That's a name you don't really want to give someone you're trying to present as the second-worst villain in the entire galaxy...:facepalm
The gang of them from TPM and those ones from ROTS...
Yeah, obviously there have to be kids in that galaxy, they just don't seem to fit in the movies. And yeah again; Annie bugged the hell out of me. That's a name you don't really want to give someone you're trying to present as the second-worst villain in the entire galaxy...:facepalm
Bigdaddy
Master Member
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