Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation

[James Kenobi 1138]

The Don Post masks were molded off of a Vader from a private collector, and I believe it was one with the lower profile ring assembly.

I have a DP fiberglass facemask and it has that taller mounting ring, that's why I was wondering if they were related. I've seen a few DP ones and they all look like the tour mounting system.

 

[RBJ]

Thanks so much for the info, Don!

So was the ANH Vader that was molded for LFL by Rick Baker the one worn by Eller during his appearances as Vader?

 

[artoo77]

Thanks so much for the info, Don!

So was the ANH Vader that was molded for LFL by Rick Baker the one worn by Eller during his appearances as Vader?

Possibly. It could also have been a screen used one. I don't really know, but I do know the provenance of the mold in the archives.

--Don Bies

 

[RBJ]

Possibly. It could also have been a screen used one. I don't really know, but I do know the provenance of the mold in the archives.

--Don Bies

..I believe the one Eller wore was in fact the screen used ANH...

 

[artoo77]

I have a DP fiberglass facemask and it has that taller mounting ring, that's why I was wondering if they were related. I've seen a few DP ones and they all look like the tour mounting system.

Yeah, I can't remember which one they used. I guess it's possible they altered the mount to suit their needs. I made 18 Vaders for personal appearances in 1995, and I pulled a plaster positive out of the ANH mold, cleaned it up a bit and remolded it, using that for all the masks. I then made my own mounting system using tubes, very similar to the ones seen in the pictures.

--Don Bies

 

[artoo77]

..I believe the one Eller wore was in fact the screen used ANH...

Sorry-didn't read your post carefully enough. I'm sure he probably wore the screen used; I believe Rick made some extras for appearances. I was told it was after the film came out when he created the mold.

And BTW, I was also told that Rob Bottin occasionally played Vader in public.

--Don Bies

 

[RBJ]

I was also told that Rob Bottin occasionally played Vader in public.

--Don Bies

WOW..he was the Giant Mouse in Rock and Roll High School AND Vader !?!

I think I have a new hero!!!

thanks again for the info!

 

[SithLord]

With all due respect to your source, I don't think they know the back story as much as I. I predate that person by a number of years, and they have come to me in the past for information regarding archive history...since I am respecting your request to keep their identity between you and I (and yes, we are friends), all I will say at this point that they are wrong, and will be happy to discuss it the next time our paths cross. Should we get to discuss this topic, I will politely explain my reasoning and the history as I know it...at which point I'm sure your contact will retract their statement. If you feel it that important to completely clear up, feel free to suggest to your contact that we discuss it further.

I stand by my original assessment. Except for the mask in the upper left corner ( and possibly some associated parts near them, I can't see them that well), those are not screen used Vaders. I believe that image was first seen in the Star Wars Chronicles, which dates it to the early 1990s. I have no doubt it was recently scanned amongst images found that date around Jedi; after all, that's when the work was done.

--Don (I'm right, the other person is wrong) Bies

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Don. I cannot really argue with that. You can't blame a guy for trying.

 

[dcarty]

... I then made my own mounting system using tubes, very similar to the ones seen in the pictures.

--Don Bies

Wow, you have a busy day at work and this is what you miss! Thank you, as always, Don for sharing your knowledge and experience. As a follow up, may I ask what kind of tubing you and/or the production crew used to create that type of mounting system?

Thanks

Dave C

 

[SithLord]

The Don Post masks were molded off of a Vader from a private collector, and I believe it was one with the lower profile ring assembly.

To the best of my knowledge, the only Vader mold that LFL had in its collection (until I arrived) was a mold of the face and mask made from an ANH Vader--the mold was done by Rick Baker. I don't think the gentlemen in these photos created a new mold, though I could be wrong. If so, then they cast a ANH Vader and modified it to make it look like an ESB/ROJ-era. However, there is no doubt that the Vader was re-worked for ESB...LFL doesn't have the molds. Of course, they have the ROTS molds, but nobody wants to even discuss that. :cool

Onigiri, I have my new signature.

Thank you.

--Don Bies

Don, the helmet you see in my signature line came from that mold of the screen-used ANH helmet (that helmet is the one that Kermit wore during the ANH promotions and was documented at Don Post studios). The previous owner of my helmet told me that the mold you refer to may have been made by Rick during the pickups of ANH. Is that something you heard anything about? But I think it is cool that you actually used that mold as well for your own Vader project.

What do you mean by re-worked for ESB? Just that the chin vent was cut out a bit and a mounting ring added? Because otherwise the ESB masks are nearly identical to ANH. The helmet (dome) was modified very slightly.

So what was the condition of that ANH helmet mold when you got to it? Do you think it is still in the archives? That would be very interesting if it indeed was the source for the ROTJ masks/helmets, thereby discounting the idea that the ROTJ helmets were just reused ESB helmets.

I'll point out that the ESB masks at least do not come from that same ANH mold you refer to, but rather another mold or casting they had in the UK at the time. There are a number of reasons why this is apparent but you'll recall the ANH mold you used didn't have mounting tabs on the top of the mask, whereas the masks created for ESB did. Both came from the original ANH mask (or the whole helmet) but it was molded more than once.

 

[artoo77]

Wow, you have a busy day at work and this is what you miss! Thank you, as always, Don for sharing your knowledge and experience. As a follow up, may I ask what kind of tubing you and/or the production crew used to create that type of mounting system?

Thanks

Dave C

I can only tell you what I used in 1995--not what they used in (circa) 1983...it was ABS pipes from a company called EMA Model Supplies...although their tubes looked similar to what I used--which is where I got the idea. And before you ask, it was probably about 4-1/2" to 5" o.d.


--Don Bies

 

[Darth Niob]

Looks like this could be the Vader thread which could bring light into many of the Vader questions we were waiting for since years. Very enjoyable to read although my head is burning because of all the new info's :lol

 

[dcarty]

Awesome! Thanks, Don I have an ESB Stunt helmet I'm working on that, hopefully, will benefit greatly from that information.

Dave

 

[SithLord]

I misread a post but will say that I'm still one wrong, one right, hehe.

 

[artoo77]

Don, the helmet you see in my signature line came from that mold of the screen-used ANH helmet (that helmet is the one that Kermit wore during the ANH promotions and was documented at Don Post studios). The previous owner of my helmet told me that the mold you refer to may have been made by Rick during the pickups of ANH. Is that something you heard anything about? But I think it is cool that you actually used that mold as well for your own Vader project.

What do you mean by re-worked for ESB? Just that the chin vent was cut out a bit and a mounting ring added? Because otherwise the ESB masks are nearly identical to ANH. The helmet (dome) was modified very slightly.

So what was the condition of that ANH helmet mold when you got to it? Do you think it is still in the archives? That would be very interesting if it indeed was the source for the ROTJ masks/helmets, thereby discounting the idea that the ROTJ helmets were just reused ESB helmets.

I'll point out that the ESB masks at least do not come from that same ANH mold you refer to, but rather another mold or casting they had in the UK at the time. There are a number of reasons why this is apparent but you'll recall the ANH mold you used didn't have mounting tabs on the top of the mask, whereas the masks created for ESB did. Both came from the original ANH mask (or the whole helmet) but it was molded more than once.

I'll leave it to the experts to discuss the differences, because I never looked at it as closely as some of you. However, IMHO, the ESB mask--and particularly helmet--look much "cleaner" then the ANH versions (no disrespect for Mr. Muir, who I think did a fabulous job). It seems apparent that they took a casting off the ANH, possibly in plaster, and smoothed it out here and there..at least that's what I would've done. Again, there's no doubt that a new mold was made, as the ESB Vader has its mount molded in, whereas the ANH model doesn't have anything on top. Also, the mask used for the Vader reveal in ROJ has the mount "crown" in it's casting as well. I'd be surprised if they made yet another mold/set for ROJ...However, I have been wrong...

I am getting confused with all this talk about this type and that type, so I hereby set forth a new naming convention based on the four versions I'm aware of:

ANH (has a little clippy-thing that holds the helmet on, sculpted by Brian Muir)
ESB/ROJ (re-molded with the Ring Mount inclusive, and Velcro on the forehead to help hold the helmet down)
ILM APPEARANCE (The ones in the photos in this thread, with a tall Ring mount and forehead Velcro)
1995 APPEARANCE (Similar to the above)

That's all that reside in the archive, folks. The only"stunt" variation I'm aware of is the one with the see-through cheeks and chin that Bob Anderson wore--and still resides in the Archives.

The ANH Vader is in the same condition in the archives now as it was when I started there...somewhat beat up, and doesn't look like it was ever restored, unlike some of the other masks.

--Don Bies

 

[artoo77]

Nuts.

I remembered a fifth variation:

ROTS

But you guys don't want to discuss that.

--Don

 

[Darth Niob]

Nuts.

I remembered a fifth variation:

ROTS

But you guys don't want to discuss that.

--Don

D Not the OT nuts.

 

[SithLord]

I'll leave it to the experts to discuss the differences, because I never looked at it as closely as some of you. However, IMHO, the ESB mask--and particularly helmet--look much "cleaner" then the ANH versions (no disrespect for Mr. Muir, who I think did a fabulous job). It seems apparent that they took a casting off the ANH, possibly in plaster, and smoothed it out here and there..at least that's what I would've done. Again, there's no doubt that a new mold was made, as the ESB Vader has its mount molded in, whereas the ANH model doesn't have anything on top. Also, the mask used for the Vader reveal in ROJ has the mount "crown" in it's casting as well. I'd be surprised if they made yet another mold/set for ROJ...However, I have been wrong...

The Paul Allen ESB stunt helmet actually is pretty rough and has most of the detail of the original ANH mask. The hero ESBs I would agree look more cleaned up. But the Paul Allen ESB mounting ring is added on because one can see the bondo around the base of it. But then do you mean the hero ESB masks have the mounting ring as part of the casting? So the stunt and hero masks were made differently then.

That's all that reside in the archive, folks. The only"stunt" variation I'm aware of is the one with the see-through cheeks and chin that Bob Anderson wore--and still resides in the Archives.

Ok I've seen photos of that, and it is a ROTJ mask, is that correct?

The ANH Vader is in the same condition in the archives now as it was when I started there...somewhat beat up, and doesn't look like it was ever restored, unlike some of the other masks.

The ANH Vader helmet? The screen helmet? Seriously? :eek

Heh, based on the information you are providing, we'll have enough stuff to argue about for another five or so years. :lol

Thanks so much for your participation here....

 

[SithLord]

Nuts.

I remembered a fifth variation:

ROTS

But you guys don't want to discuss that.

--Don

Actually I would. :love

Don, I was told that there was only one pull from the ROTS production mold, but I don't understand that since you worked on the reveal ROTS mask and there was the hero mask which wasn't cut in half. So were there only two pulls? I realize I am digressing but hey, it isn't every day one can cover so much ground at once. :thumbsup Also it is my understanding that there was just the one final production mold for the ROTS mask/helmet even though it went through stages of refinement.

Oh and I guess technically the Master Replicas helmet master would have been a third pull.

 

[defstartrooper]

Cool stuff :thumbsup
Don't stop :lol