Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation

[SithLord]

Continuing the thread began in the JY about the JRX ROTJ helmet.

So, Gino, was Don Bies correct or not about the hero ESB helmet that went to auction? According to your theory about only promotional helmets having the cylindrical mounting ring, Don would have been in error, yet you rely on him being correct about the photo with the many ROTJ helmets/armor in it. This thread is to discuss the possibilities of the source of the ROTJ helmets and the conflicting views presently held.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Continuing the thread began in the JY about the JRX ROTJ helmet.

So, Gino, was Don Bies correct or not about the hero ESB helmet that went to auction? According to your theory about only promotional helmets having the cylindrical mounting ring, Don would have been in error, yet you rely on him being correct about the photo with the many ROTJ helmets/armor in it. This thread is to discuss the possibilities of the source of the ROTJ helmets and the conflicting views presently held.

Here is something I see as a problem...especially with the "character appearance" helmets in the photo: Those helmets in the photo all appear to have mounting rings. Now, take into account Brian's recent acquisition. It has no mounting rings. He claims it came from a RotJ molded helmet, which I will take on faith. So, would that not stand to reason that the simplest answer is that Don Bies is right and those are indeed "character appearance" helmets seen in those two photographs?

The differences in the pieces on the table from the one set of armor/belt/chest combo are readily seen if you just look. I spotted them and did not need squiggly lines to see them.

 

[darthvaderv]

I was trying to stay out of this. As some are aware the total number of ESB casts used back in 1979 compared to the ones that survive now and can be traced, make the explanation that the majority of ESB's were re-used for ROTJ partly inaccurate. However, I believe 2 were very likely used at most, not all. With an ESB featuring in Jedi. A ROTJ hero, and a stunt took up the majority of film time. I have seen and have evidence of the hat mount that is clearly 100% from the stunt helmet and I also know have evidence of another hat mount featured in Jedi. That is the mount thing aside, the facts are ESB hat mounts are present in ROTJ and a couple of casts may well of derrived from ESB but to be clear they are not identical to ESB. The ring mount may of been present, it's possible and I think it is unwise to state that as fact when that is simply not 100% known.

So, Gino is partly right.

I don't like the way that all just went down BTW in that JY and it has been littered by negatives just because it is a TM, and yes the JRX style I believe is practical as it isn't an accurate mount.

 

[darthvaderv]

Here is something I see as a problem...especially with the "character appearance" helmets in the photo: Those helmets in the photo all appear to have mounting rings. Now, take into account Brian's recent acquisition. It has no mounting rings. He claims it came from a RotJ molded helmet, which I will take on faith. So, would that not stand to reason that the simplest answer is that Don Bies is right and those are indeed "character appearance" helmets seen in those two photographs?

The differences in the pieces on the table from the one set of armor/belt/chest combo are readily seen if you just look. I spotted them and did not need squiggly lines to see them.

The majority of Vader authentic casts have the mounts and extras added to them after the casting process BTW. Each screen piece apart from some tour pieces come out the mold more or less the same, give or take.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

The majority of Vader authentic casts have the mounts and extras added to them after the casting process BTW. Each screen piece apart from some tour pieces come out the mold more or less the same, give or take.

Well, look at the top left helmet in the modelshop pic. It looks like they used that to base everything off of. The mounting "system" for the dome is completely different on that piece than on the other piece without the helmet. That is just one of the visible discrepancies.

 

[darthvaderv]

Yes...I know. I think you have not understood what I put.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Yes...I know. I think you have not understood what I put.

I get what you are saying, Paul. The rings are part of the finishing process. We may be crossing signals altogether here. I am saying that the model makers tried to replicate the height the mounting ring gave the domes by fabricating their own, different mounting mechanism.

 

[darthvaderv]

Sorry your name always escapes me Qui.

I agree. However, I just don't think we can rule out a DP style of ring alltogether. My gut feeling is that no such thing was used. It is true that photo is one of 3 varients taken post ROTJ and are part of the promotional and future Tour pieces late 1982/83 onwards.

As I said the hat mount does feature in Jedi. My point about Brian Muir's helmet is that it can not be dismissed by assembly as the finishing touches are rarely part of the mold.

So 2 different things.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Sorry your name always escapes me Qui.

I agree. However, I just don't think we can rule out a DP style of ring alltogether. My gut feeling is that no such thing was used. It is true that photo is one of 3 varients taken post ROTJ and are part of the promotional and future Tour pieces late 1982/83 onwards.

As I said the hat mount does feature in Jedi. My point about Brian Muir's helmet is that it can not be dismissed by assembly as the finishing touches are rarely part of the mold.

So 2 different things.

It's Hector.

I am by no means dismissing Brian's helmet at all. I get the point you are making now about the helmet he owns. I mean, if we looked at assembly, the guy screwed the dome onto the helmet through the front...yuck.

About his helmet though, could they not have molded a RotJ helmet, as we saw in the making of the RotS Vader? This does not mean it is screen used, but one step removed, yet still a valuable piece from ILM, no?

 

[Brian Muir]

It's Hector.

I am by no means dismissing Brian's helmet at all. I get the point you are making now about the helmet he owns. I mean, if we looked at assembly, the guy screwed the dome onto the helmet through the front...yuck.

About his helmet though, could they not have molded a RotJ helmet, as we saw in the making of the RotS Vader? This does not mean it is screen used, but one step removed, yet still a valuable piece from ILM, no?

PM sent

 

[darthvaderv]

It is an authentic cast IMO, and the new owners of these pieces do strange things, remember the thin fibreglass strips holding the TM dome on as an analagy.

 

[SithLord]

Heh, so both Gino and I are partly right and partly wrong. :lol

But if that group photo is from 82/83, that would be around the time of the ROTJ production, right, even if it wasn't for the production? Also, based on what you said about the "hat" mount, it would make sense that if the tour or promotional masks had it that it came from somewhere, so possibly from one of the two ROTJ masks you mention. But do the promotional masks have the hat molded in or added on?

 

[CSMacLaren]

Heh, so both Gino and I are partly right and partly wrong. :lol

SithLord and Gino on RPF = Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra. :lol

 

[vader71]

For those not getting the reference from ST:TNG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darmok

 

[darthvaderv]

I have only ever seen one tour mold that had the DP style mount as far as the Tour pieces go. Like everyone else as so many varients were made with all these Vader pieces it's impossible to state crystal clear as to the exact mounts they all used for certain in the end, that is why I won't dismiss the ROTJ DP ring entirely for use on screen back in 1982 but the hat mount was definately used. Additionally I know of one exhibit that has that same style mount. Personally, I have not seen a ROTJ style tour have a hat mount, I'm not saying they don't exsist though.

I don't know the exact time the picture was taken but in my file it simply says post 'Return of the Jedi' 1982/83 circa.

 

[GINO]

There were no new fiberglass helmets or armor made for ROTJ.
They were all ESB refurbished.

They also refurbished the hero ESB chestbox which made it into a couple of scenes (although new scratch built ones were made also which is what we are more familiar with).
They also re-used the same belt boxes, cod, and gloves.
The only new stuff made for ROTJ was the leathers (some of them) and the capes.

That is why Brian's helmet does not come from a ROTJ specific mold.
A ROTJ specific mold would have been a new mold made from an existing ESB helmet specifically for ROTJ production.
There is no such thing.

I'm sure Brian's casting is an authentic one (like a lot of others that were made by the crew from ANH to ROTJ).
There were and are molds that produce authentic style castings both in and out of LFL possession.
It is more likely that Brian's friend had access to one of those molds during that time and made or was given a rogue casting.

If I saw better pics of it, I would be able to better tell what source it was spawned from.


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[darthvaderv]

Well, let me ask you this...If you say no new helmets were made for Jedi, that would mean Brian's connections would be wrong, yet he probably knows the guys who worked on the movies personally.

Another thing. Just how many ESB's do you think they made for ESB and then ROTJ compared to what known screen casts are known to exsist today. Because I can certainly tell the difference between ESB and ROTJ and I sure hope you can. So lets see if this adds up, because I don't follow exactly.

 

[GINO]

Well, let me ask you this...If you say no new helmets were made for Jedi, that would mean Brian's connections would be wrong, yet he probably knows the guys who worked on the movies personally.

Yes that is correct. I believe that Brian's connection just isn't aware.

Not all ESB/ROTJ are accounted for.

Although very recently, I was able to identify and screen match a very prominent helmet for a private collector. I was shocked that it still existed.

.

 

[darthvaderv]

Yes, but we know several ESB's exsist right. They exsist today. So how many ESB derived pieces are you claiming made it into ROTJ? Because you can't say the majority of ESB's as that makes no sense as to what still exsists now.

 

[GINO]

Unless I'm forgetting one, I only know of one non-ROTJ refurbished screen used ESB still kicking around not counting the stunts with perspex mods.


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