Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation

[darthvaderv]

Ok, let me make it simple so there is no confusion

These are the ones that largely exsist..ESB that is.

-PH Hero
-LFL Hero
-PA Stunt
-WD ?
-Kurtz (poss sold)
- Christies 80/81 (Sold)

 

[GINO]

I'm not sure what all those stand for.
But I bet they aren't all ESB's except for the Paul Allen stunt.
PS
I don't know of any ESB hero at LFL.

 

[darthvaderv]

Hey, I'm off home so let me pick this conversation back up in an hour or two.

 

[SithLord]

I'll just sit back and let the experts duke it out :lol

 

[darthvaderv]

Very crudely and to save time I have used some of Jez's pics :thumbsup

1)Planet Hollywood ESB

2)Christies ESB
The helmet sold at Christie's South Kensington, London Weds 21 December 1994.

Now living in a film and TV museum in Torino, Italy.

Lot 206
Darth Vader
A black/grey fibreglass skull helmet with wide-flanged rim and faceted characterised face, the inside inscribed in white chalk 3 - made for the 1980 Lucasfilm The Empire Strikes Back.

3) LFL
I'm sure many have this on DVD on the older bootlegs or have seen it before but the quality here isn't bad when played in better res.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFqnqWJ1shs

Lucasfilm archive tour - Don Bies - Although not a true ESB, many features are preference over ROTJ despite some ROTJ finishing with an ESB dome.

4) Kurtz owned another privately

5) PA Stunt - ESB

6) Warwick Davis

Although parts of the face aside, this is an ESB dome, despite it being under Jedi on his website.

 

[defstartrooper]

I'll just sit back and let the experts duke it out :lol

 

[CSMacLaren]

Nice breakdown, Paul! :thumbsup

 

[RBJ]

Great thread so far! I've been so fixated on ANH ..I really need to pay more attention to the other films! :lol

 

[darthvaderv]

Well, thanks, but to be fair some of them are not concrete cases because I haven't personally examined them apart from seeing sufficent evidence from the PA stunt. Some of it remains speculation, Gino won't know and nor will I. So we have to be realistic and grown up about this and it's not a case of experts going at it, it's more 2 Vader fans trying to figure out in logic what is going on :thumbsup

 

[GINO]

Well, thanks, but to be fair some of them are not concrete cases because I haven't personally examined them apart from seeing sufficent evidence from the PA stunt. Some of it remains speculation, Gino won't know and nor will I. So we have to be realistic and grown up about this and it's not a case of experts going at it, it's more 2 Vader fans trying to figure out in logic what is going on :thumbsup

I can agree with that.
The only one I feel I could state emphatically is true ESB is the Paul Allen.
It is possible some of those others are as well, but as you said would take further examination. Without seeing specific things, it can be almost impossible to tell a promo from a screen used.
The helmet in the archive tour is definitely ROTJ.

.

 

[darthvaderv]

I can agree with that.
The only one I feel I could state emphatically is true ESB is the Paul Allen.
It is possible some of those others are as well, but as you said would take further examination. Without seeing specific things, it can be almost impossible to tell a promo from a screen used.
The helmet in the archive tour is definitely ROTJ.

.

Yes, that is possible, I doubt that theory on the Planet Hollywood and the Christies as it makes sense with the numbers #2, #3,#5 that I know of inscribed in the domes and faceplates. But not concrete I agree. I'll split the difference with you due to finishing on the faceplate anyway regarding the LFL.

 

[GINO]

To make things even more difficult, some of the promo helmets were also numbered as well.
Also, regarding the LFL archive helmet.
The ESB masks only had one layer of grill in the teeth.
The ROTJ had the smaller behind the larger in the teeth, just like on the LFL archive helmet pictured.


.

 

[darthvaderv]

Yeah, Sadly I know. They certainly make things difficult that's why they mix them up so much as we all know.

I agree with the finishing as mentioned in my initial post.

 

[GINO]

Yes, it is unfortunate. I'm sure it's only prop fans (not general SW fans) who feel that it is so important that the screen used items be correctly labeled for posterity. They should be approached like historical artifacts.
Mislabeling would never fly in a museum of natural history etc...
I guess most people just think of this stuff as unimportant props from some old movie.

.

 

[darthvaderv]

Yep, that's why some of it was put in the bin quite often. Luckily Joiner was able to do some skip digging :lol

 

[defstartrooper]

Yes, it is unfortunate. I'm sure it's only prop fans (not general SW fans) who feel that it is so important that the screen used items be correctly labeled for posterity. They should be approached like historical artifacts.
Mislabeling would never fly in a museum of natural history etc...
I guess most people just think of this stuff as unimportant props from some old movie.

.

Sure it would,scroll down to the section labeled History.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatosaurus

 

[SithLord]

Great discussion, guys...

Coming back to the photo showing the collection of Jedi helmets on the table. As Gino referred to before, Don Bies said of the photo:

They're not stunt helmets, either. They're character appearance helmets made at ILM...the two technicians shown are ILM employees at the ILM model shop.

--Don Bies

Well according to my source at LFL, that isn't the case. According to the LFL image archives database, the photo was taken during production or pre-production of Jedi. My source mentioned that although there can on occasion be misinformation entered into the fields, they scanned this image several years ago from slides at ILM and must have had a good reason to believe it was the right time-frame. So the helmets were definitely made by ILM, and six is the number of Vader costumes that were made for both ESB and Jedi. He also mentioned to me that there is no reason to think that they would have made six appearance costumes during that period.

So as I said, the image is from the ROTJ production, and so they did have masks with the taller mounting ring (or hat).

 

[GINO]

Your source at LFL is wrong.

.

 

[defstartrooper]

Your source at LFL is wrong.

.

But your source isn't right ?

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

But your source isn't right ?

Def, his source is Don Bies...a member here. Would you care to call him out on his own words? The quote was posted on this board.