Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation

[darthvaderv]

I don't usually stick up for others but bare in mind all of us have been wrong at some point. All of us. Doesn't matter what we know now. We will also be wrong again at some point in the future also. Something to consider when putting things into perspective.

It's time to loose the negativity and have better discussions like what has been presented today as it's been more enjoyable. The Vader disputes are getting tiresome and frankly dull, they should start being debated along these lines IMO.

 

[artoo77]

Why is it the moment I comment in a thread, all other comments typically cease...?:confused


--Don Bies

 

[bobasfett]

Great thread. Rodney King would be proud of you guys.

 

[bobasfett]

Why is it the moment I comment in a thread, all other comments typically cease...?:confused


--Don Bies

LOL....Don, I would take it as a compliment. I believe your previous post with Gino's confirmation of lonepigeon's observations have given me the clearest explanation of what is contained in those pics.

I would echo Paul's sentiments thus far and also say that this has been one of the more enjoyable Vader threads I've read in a long time. It's nice to have Thomas, Paul, and Gino engaged in a discussion without it spiraling into locked threads and bannings. I hope it continues.

BTW, this is a sign of the apocalypse....sell all your cherished Vader items to me before the end of the world!!!

 

[Onigiri]

People are scurrying, Don.... Good info has been presented and now everyone is re-examining and choosing their next words carefully...this has actually been one of the more CIVIL Vader threads Your input about WHERE this shot was taken adds credibility to Ginos position.

Why is it the moment I comment in a thread, all other comments typically cease...?:confused


--Don Bies

 

[SithLord]

Thanks for your input, Chris, and Don thanks as well for chiming in. I respect it when someone can be specific about why something is or isn't production-made. I think, Don, that naturally people can be a bit intimidated when having someone who was so involved with the Star Wars productions such as yourself chime into a heated debate like this. I'm enjoying it as much as anyone else to see what the truth is, and whose source is correct (mine! :lol). I've responded to your PM Don and please let me know how it goes, although I'm sure it might be amusing for you two guys to be discussing this particular photo since really you are just entertaining a few overzealous Vader fans that are so passionate about details.

 

[RBJ]

GREAT Vader thread! I have glanced at that photo a million times, but never really LOOKED at it until today..so thanks!

I would have to agree with the theory that they are promo suits, except the one in the upper left..

a few of the differences that jump out at me about that one:

The gunmetal paint on the face plate seems to have a different color, while all the others are a bit lighter and duller..and match each other..could be lighting, but I don't think so.

As mentioned, the green lights on the belt boxes...the red ones as well...but the upper left one seems to be a different base box altogether, and the knobs look thinner and longer..and it has wear on it

The chest box base on the upper left one seems a bit sharper and les rounded than the others..also the blue "light" is darker..and it looks as though the tops of the coin slots may be black like ROTJ, but I can't tell for sure..


So is it possible that the upper left set is a screen used ROTJ, and the rest promo?..that's my guess:thumbsup

 

[GINO]

Yes, that's correct.

.

 

[bobasfett]

Just asking the question here and sorry if I missed it, but assuming all the Vaders in the thread are promos except for the upper left, was the screen used Vader cast in order to make the promos?? Did this happen in the US or UK? BTW, I realize these questions might not have answers.....

 

[SithLord]

Well ILM is in the US so yes that's the view if the photo is post-ROTJ, but yes a reasonable supposition that what people think is the one screen suit could have served as the basis for the others.

 

[GINO]

Possibly a dome, but not the faceplate.

The promo helmets start with the same base face mask as the screen used ones. No ring on top, small chin vent, etc... Then they are converted. This is also how the ESB/ROTJ helmets were made.
The ones in the above pic were finished differently than the screen used versions (ie single ring mount).

This is what makes when looking at a raw unfinished castings practically impossible to distinguish whether or not it was production made, or made after the production. They all start out exactly the same. Variations in surface details and overall size/shape (within reason) will happen between castings and also in how the original production team finished them up.

Only a combination of the following details (paint, grills, tusks, lenses, interior foam, straps) can be used to determine the distinction between the two.


.

 

[bobasfett]

I was just curious why the pic of one screen used mask and a bunch of promos....what you are saying Gino is that they all came from one mold and that the screen used mask in this case is just there for reference?

 

[GINO]

That's what makes sense to me.
To serve as tangible physical reference for finishing up all the other pieces.


.

 

[ArtisanProps]

good catch Chris ! I didn't realize someone caught the missing Hebrew
lettering on the Chest Boxes.....

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Thanks for your input, Chris, and Don thanks as well for chiming in. I respect it when someone can be specific about why something is or isn't production-made. I think, Don, that naturally people can be a bit intimidated when having someone who was so involved with the Star Wars productions such as yourself chime into a heated debate like this. I'm enjoying it as much as anyone else to see what the truth is, and whose source is correct (mine! :lol). I've responded to your PM Don and please let me know how it goes, although I'm sure it might be amusing for you two guys to be discussing this particular photo since really you are just entertaining a few overzealous Vader fans that are so passionate about details.

Thomas, the input Chris gave is the same that was readily viewable by anyone who took the time out to actually give the picture a close look. No need for squiggly lines, no need to point anyone in the right direction other than "Top left, what are the differences?"

Don, as far as why the thread seems to have gotten quiet, I have to echo Thomas to a degree; We have someone who is in the know (Aside from Brian...thanks, man) who is giving us the knowledge we are looking for. It's like a bucket of ice water to the one camp, and a bit of validation to the other. So, it stops folks and makes them try and fish up a new point on one hand, and others to sit and wait.

Again, thanks for contributing to our anal pursuit of all that is Vader.

 

[artoo77]

Thanks for your input, Chris, and Don thanks as well for chiming in. I respect it when someone can be specific about why something is or isn't production-made. I think, Don, that naturally people can be a bit intimidated when having someone who was so involved with the Star Wars productions such as yourself chime into a heated debate like this. I'm enjoying it as much as anyone else to see what the truth is, and whose source is correct (mine! :lol). I've responded to your PM Don and please let me know how it goes, although I'm sure it might be amusing for you two guys to be discussing this particular photo since really you are just entertaining a few overzealous Vader fans that are so passionate about details.

With all due respect to your source, I don't think they know the back story as much as I. I predate that person by a number of years, and they have come to me in the past for information regarding archive history...since I am respecting your request to keep their identity between you and I (and yes, we are friends), all I will say at this point that they are wrong, and will be happy to discuss it the next time our paths cross. Should we get to discuss this topic, I will politely explain my reasoning and the history as I know it...at which point I'm sure your contact will retract their statement. If you feel it that important to completely clear up, feel free to suggest to your contact that we discuss it further.

I stand by my original assessment. Except for the mask in the upper left corner ( and possibly some associated parts near them, I can't see them that well), those are not screen used Vaders. I believe that image was first seen in the Star Wars Chronicles, which dates it to the early 1990s. I have no doubt it was recently scanned amongst images found that date around Jedi; after all, that's when the work was done.

--Don (I'm right, the other person is wrong) Bies

 

[ArtisanProps]

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--Don (I'm right, the other person is wrong) Bies
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That's awesome! You should leave that as your signature...... lol

 

[James Kenobi 1138]

Okay: question.

The Vader in the upper left is a ROTJ facemask, but it was not molded only used as reference in CA to finish tour suits.

All the tour masks seen in that pic were molded from ANH style raw cast molds then converted into ROTJ style helmets.

The 'taller' mounting ring was added to the modified ANH raw molded facemasks- thus making them different from production ESB and ROTJ facemasks.

Are these tour facemasks what Don Post used to make the DP Deluxe helmets ?

 

[Onigiri]

"To Bies or Not to Bies....that is the question..."

....sorry....couldnt help it....

 

[artoo77]

Are these tour facemasks what Don Post used to make the DP Deluxe helmets ?

The Don Post masks were molded off of a Vader from a private collector, and I believe it was one with the lower profile ring assembly.

To the best of my knowledge, the only Vader mold that LFL had in its collection (until I arrived) was a mold of the face and mask made from an ANH Vader--the mold was done by Rick Baker. I don't think the gentlemen in these photos created a new mold, though I could be wrong. If so, then they cast a ANH Vader and modified it to make it look like an ESB/ROJ-era. However, there is no doubt that the Vader was re-worked for ESB...LFL doesn't have the molds. Of course, they have the ROTS molds, but nobody wants to even discuss that. :cool

Onigiri, I have my new signature.

Thank you.

--Don Bies