Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation

[lonepigeon]

Chris, that is the real grey area in the whole thing. Is there only the one mold? If the mold was brought to Brian's friend and he made castings from that for RotJ, would that not make the mold a RotJ mold? A better question is "Will we ever really know?"

Personally I would identify the item by when it was created.
If the mold was for ESB - ESB mold.
Castings from that mold during ROTJ - ROTJ castings (from ESB mold)

It's all dependent on what mold was used and what the castings were specifically used for. From what I've read this information is not known.

 

[StarWars Collector]

A better question is "Will we ever really know?"

At best it would only be an assumption based on nothing objective, since no hard evidence (either way) has been presented

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Personally I would identify the item by when it was created.
If the mold was for ESB - ESB mold.
Castings from that mold during ROTJ - ROTJ castings (from ESB mold)

It's all dependent on what mold was used and what the castings were specifically used for. From what I've read this information is not known.

Oh, same here, but some do not share that same line of thinking.

 

[SithLord]

This is a public forum so anyone is allowed to voice an opinion.
Half the examples quoted of Gino "insulting" Brian are just a differing opinion. There are a few real insults thrown in there like accusations of a planned run of helmets. That was uncalled for IMO.

It isn't just a difference in opinion. How can you honestly say that?

Brian was insulted. I even show in his own language clearly how he was insulted. It is there for everyone to see but you ignore it and simply say it wasn't insulting and just a difference in opinion? How can you ignore comments like that? And you seem to forget what Gino said about what Brian did on his forum, that he banned Brian without just cause, and stated the ban and reasons publically here along with pointing out Brian's poor behavior on his forum, along with saying that Brian knows nothing about Vader apart from having done sculpting work.

I guess I have to spell it out again (quoting Gino):

Besides, tell me I'm wrong to say that Brian has a run of these helmets planned.

Mark my words, but I would not be surprised to see if somehow this helmet is being bolstered up so that it can be later cashed in on in one form or another.

I certainly hope that's the only parallel that will be able to be drawn in the future [compared to Andrew Ainsworth], but a lot of that depends on you.

I can say that the bolstering of this particular helmet followed by the decision to do a run of them is not what I would call a step in the right direction. (a threat?)

So does that make Brian an expert on all things Vader. In my opinion not at all.
To be more clear, his involvement and knowledge stops at the initial sculpting point.
To claim any more than that in my opinion is over reaching one's boundaries.

So then are you disputing what I said or not?
And if so, EVERYONE would love to know what else you were responsible for.

For someone who bashed Ainsworth (and rightfully so) for taking on credit for work he did not actually do, I would think that Brian would want to take advantage of the opportunity to clarify exactly what his role in vader's creation was. ESPECIALLY, if someone posted such and he saw mistakes in what he read.
Unless there are no mistakes.

Brian basically started going thread after thread posting direct insults (4 to be exact before I was able to put a stop to it).
I can't believe that someone such as Brian would stoop to that level.
Arguing on forums is for us lowly folk. People like Brian is supposed to be 'above' it. At least in my opinion.

I say this with all sincerity. It is very disappointing to see someone (almost a hero amongst us) stoop to that kind of behavior. Regardless of any disagreements, it saddens me to see the ugly (human) side of our 'heroes'.


Brian's words: take exception, arrogance and misinformation, WRONG on many points, and becomes insulting, you're the one that insults.

You want to see the uniform standards of the RPF?

Here is a permanent infraction I received for voicing an opinion about Gino's costume in a thread that wasn't even Vader-related.

This place is a joke.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Thomas, to be fair to the staff, that one point is not permanent. Tread even said as much in his post. Your point was NOT called serious, he just said it was an infraction point which may result in restricted access until it expires.

Look now, none of you who have spoken up for Brian are Brian. He can defend himself, and has done so, here and elsewhere. The moderation staff does not feel it was insulting of GINO to ask about Brian's involvement beyond ANH.

As far as GINO's ban, it was just. Hell, didn't Brian admit that he could not find an unregister button, so went trolling to get a ban? He was bragging about it on the Den. Do I need to get the quote? He was really quite proud of himself. Didn't he also post about how amateurish GINO's vac-form machine was, in return, retaliating for GINO saying Brian was like Ainsworth by saying GINO's setup was bad compared to AA's? The guy is not innocent, Thomas, so let's not try to make him out to be a martyr.

 

[Onigiri]

To all involved: Maybe there needs to be a new standard for posting in Vader threads...kind of like in math class....if youre unable or unwilling to show the proof then the answer doesnt count. The same standards need to be applied to everyone whether it be Gino or Brian or Thomas...quite simply that 'just saying something is so doesnt make it so.'
Ginos lack of interpersonal skills get him in to trouble time and time again but we need to separate the wheat from the chaffe. Gino saying there wasnt another mold doesnt make it true and his reticence about showing his proof causes him to lose credibility some times. Just because he has been right about a lot of things doesnt mean he gets a free pass on everything. The same standard should hold true for Brian or Don Bies or any other member, professional or skilled amateur.
We saw one of Thomas' sources get contradicted by Don Bies...both men worked for the franchise....in that instance Don was correct in his recollection and Thomas' friend was not. Then we turn around and see that Don was apparently incorrect about the mounting system being molded in to the helmet. People are fallible and the further removed we are from the source the more room there is for error.
We see the same thing in Trek props. In interviews with Wah Chang about his work creating the props for classic Trek it was amazing how much he DIDNT know (or remember correctly) about his own work. Professionals are human and humans are fallible so to give carte blanche to anyone, be it Gino, Thomas, Brian, Don etc without proof is illogical.
The latest helmet shown on the Den looks great and I love what Brian did with it however I find myself in the same quandry. Im not a Vader expert so I tend sometimes to defer to those who are. Brian didnt cast this helmet but rather got it from someone else who remains anonymous. What Im hearing is that because Brian vouches for the anonymous person (the source) that the source is golden.
Having worked in the industry here in LA I can tell you that this cant be the gold standard for authenticity any more then taking Gino's statements as facts without substantiating proof. I dont know Brians associate but I do know this industry and this hobby and cant tell you how many times Ive seen people IN the industry knowingly passing things off as 'screen used' or 'from the original molds' to put dinner on the table. Am I saying thats what happened here? Nope, but HONESTLY I dont know and if asked in a court of law if I could vouch for any of these people Id have to say no. Why? Because I dont KNOW them.
Ive seen industry pros use their resume to put COAs on items they KNEW werent real to fetch a higher price on Ebay (I outed one of these folks here on the RPF a couple of years ago). This was a friend of mine as a matter of fact and he knew he was wrong but chose to do it anyway so I outed him. I see this sort of thing a lot unfortunately so Im a little jaded.
Ive also in the past purchased offerings by people who were lauded as experts and these offerings were touted as 100% accurate based on expertise and hands on study blah blah blah. Well, these folks keep turning out the latest incarnation of said offerings each one more 100% accurate then the 100% accurate earlier incarnation that bears few similarities. I purchased based on resume and expertise and it wasnt what it was advertised as. How many times do we see the licensees themselves tout 'From the LFL molds' and we KNOW its rubbish???? We neednt even get in to the Ainsworth debacle again. The fact is this sort of thing happens far too frequently and my PERSONAL experience in the LA professional prop making world has been that honesty and above board dealings is the exception not the norm. This is sad but true. ( side note: I know a few good honest folks here too and they know who they are )
The other sad fact is, as demonstrated by Ainsworth and others, is that when there is an opportunity for money to be made the rules change. Am I comparing any of these folks to Ainsworth? No Im not but after that whole Ainsworth debacle nobody gets a free pass. I wont assume that just because somebody worked on something that they are legit but at teh same point I wont assume that they arent. I will simply tread carefully
The fact is I dont know ANY of the people at the heart of this personally and without substantiating proof from any of these folks I have to take everything as a 'neat replica' or a 'really good theory'. Im not trying to be insulting to Gino, Thomas, Brian, Don etc but the fact is that I dont know any of them personally so what does that leave me with? It leaves me with best guess based on what I am presented with here. It leaves me with sorting through the miasma of back and forth pummeling trying to find nuggets of information amid the carnage and cults of personality.
The standard of proof in this hobby shouldnt be on 'the accuser' it should be on 'the presenter' should it not? Whether that presenter be Gino or Don or Brian its simply not enough for me at least to say 'because I said so'.
As I said on the Den I dont know enough about the intricacies of paint blobs and divits and stitch count on Vader to get in to the real nitty gritty and honestly I dont care enough at this point.
Each one of these RPF Vader battles actually leaves me LESS interested in 'the perfect Vader'. I look at Karo's Vader and Gino's Vader and I think, "Man, those are both really nice!" but seeing all the blood shed Im now content with "Close enough". I honestly hope Ive presented this in a manner that leaves nobody insulted.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Well said, Oni. Gents, that there is as unbiased as it gets.

 

[CSMacLaren]

Onigiri,

Well said. :thumbsup

 

[lonepigeon]

It isn't just a difference in opinion. How can you honestly say that?

Again you're fast to react, but you don't stop to read.
I said the comments/accusations Gino made regarding Brian's motivation being a planned run of helmets "OUT OF LINE". From what I've read they were unfounded and seemed Gino was just projecting his bad experience with AA onto Brian.
The mods can give Gino a warning or point or whatever they feel is appropriate.

The rest is stating of opinion and I'm sure Brian can take care of himself.

I would also assume that Brian would only know details about the sculpting stage of Vader because that's all he's mentioned himself. If that's incorrect he can clarify his involvement at any time. It's not an accusation or meant to be insulting it's just a perception.

PS - Well said Onigiri.

 

[franz bolo]

FYI, That was an automated message that he received and the verbage needs to be changed because it doesn't follow the CoC. Infraction points will never expire. I was told this by a Moderator recently.

I agree with Onigiri also.

FB

Thomas, to be fair to the staff, that one point is not permanent. Tread even said as much in his post. Your point was NOT called serious, he just said it was an infraction point which may result in restricted access until it expires.

 

[GINO]

I think that post hits the nail on the head.

I also think I need to clarify something.
I realize that there are a lot of times where I weigh in with my opinion about something where I say "That's not correct, it's like this" and don't go further to explain or prove exactly why. There are reasons why I either can't or are unwilling to do so. In no way should that prevent me or anyone else from being able to add their .02c.
Is it frustrating? Sure. But there are also times when things can be fully explained utterly and completely (anyone who follows my posts knows that I make those types of posts just as much or more so than the latter). It's just that people tend to remember and focus on the times when things are left vague.

Now with that being said. Whenever I say, "it's like this" and don't go further to explain why, I don't expect anyone to take what I say solely on blind faith, although it might appear that way.
I've established a respectable track record of knowing a little bit of what I'm talking about in the arena of SW props/costumes. Do I know everything, hell no. Far from it. But I would hope that at the very least, it causes intelligent people to pause and say to themselves, "wait a minute, maybe I should take what he's saying into consideration" vs just taking the word of some person who has an attachment to the films. Especially when I choose to put a response out there that I know in advance is going to be controversial. You don't really think I like being dogpiled all the time do you? But you know what? I can take it, because I know what I'm saying is correct, otherwise I wouldn't put myself out there like that. And almost always, the people who engage in dogpiling are not free thinking people. Their opinions hold no value to me and are to be dismissed.

Just as Onigiri pointed out, it is dangerous and foolish to allow yourself to blindly swallow anything said by these people attached to the film industry. There are numerous examples of misinformation, incorrect memory, and even down right intentional lying to further their agenda. Enough that as earlier said, should make you pause and scrutinize.
In Brian's case, I believe it is a case of him getting bad information from his friend. The danger in that is when that bad information is coupled with Brian's status as the original sculptor, it amplifies the reach and damage potential of that bad information. And of course when challenged publicly, causes disaster threads like this one.
What would happen if that bad information turned into a springboard to sell off something as an original when it clearly is not? Happens all the time. These auction houses most of the time are willing to take the word of the Andrew Ainsworth's of the industry over people like you and me.
Not to mention the gullible nature of prop collectors whose desire for something to be more than it is, is a very powerful and dangerous thing.


.

 

[defstartrooper]

Just as Onigiri pointed out, it is dangerous and foolish to allow yourself to blindly swallow anything said by these people attached to the film industry. There are numerous examples of misinformation, incorrect memory, and even down right intentional lying to further their agenda. Enough that as earlier said, should make you pause and scrutinize.

That's right except it doesn't seem to apply to your sources, your sources can be wrong or mistaken just as any other source can be, so unless you have documented written or photographic evidence from the time of production stating that all the ROTJ helmets are refurbished ESB i'm afraid your information and opinion is no more valid than anyone elses.

 

[ArtisanProps]

Well said Onigiri!:thumbsup

I think the real problem is how much passion we all have.. We all want the
same thing when it comes to vader, accuracy... Things tend to get bloody
when casts of a real screen used pieces get brought into the picture, and the
"mine is better then yours" or "mine is more accurate then yours" crap starts-
to spew from the mouths of what sometimes seems like 12 year olds, and I
am not speaking about anyone specific, just generalizing..

I personally could care less about how accurate my Vader is. As long as I'm
happy with it, nothing else concerns me...........................

 

[GINO]

I said the comments/accusations Gino made regarding Brian's motivation being a planned run of helmets "OUT OF LINE". From what I've read they were unfounded and seemed Gino was just projecting his bad experience with AA onto Brian.

I probably should have been more clear to say that I've had 3 independent sources say that Brian has a private interest list for castings of his helmet.
And of course, that factors into my opinion of the issue.
Some parallels can be drawn, but I'm certainly not putting Brian into the exact same category as Ainsworth.


.

 

[Trap Joe]

To all involved: Maybe there needs to be a new standard for posting in Vader threads...kind of like in math class....if youre unable or unwilling to show the proof then the answer doesnt count.

Very good idea:thumbsup!!! That will help!

 

[Trap Joe]

I probably should have been more clear to say that I've had 3 independent sources say that Brian has a private interest list for castings of his helmet.
And of course, that factors into my opinion of the issue.
Some parallels can be drawn, but I'm certainly not putting Brian into the exact same category as Ainsworth.


.

PLEEEEASE Guys don´t give this fire any oil! Just ignore it.

 

[ave4uevoli]

That's right except it doesn't seem to apply to your sources, your sources can be wrong or mistaken just as any other source can be, so unless you have documented written or photographic evidence from the time of production stating that all the ROTJ helmets are refurbished ESB i'm afraid your information and opinion is no more valid than anyone elses.

I think it does apply to GINO's sources. What people should have done in the first place when Gino gave his very first statement of "I respectfully disagree" is to figure out WHY? Yes, we asked Gino, but because he's unwilling or unable to share his sources, shouldn't it be up to us to at least attempt to find the truth? Shouldn't it put up a red flag for all of us that maybe, just maybe Brian, or Bies, or Sithlord or vaderdarth, or whomever could be wrong?? (i'm just spewing names here)

All Gino said in that last post was that hopefully, he has been correct enough times in the past that when he says something it at least makes us doubt what others are saying.

In the same light, Brian did work on these films and of course he has "more evidence" because he was actually there! But ALL of us have questioned others who have worked on the production of other movies. Some people who have worked in production have also been wrong in the past.

I don't think it's too much to ask that we don't at least question, or try and dig deeper for the truth.

PLEEEEASE Guys don´t give this fire any oil! Just ignore it.

Yea - Trap Joe - really - you're not helping. Not only that, ignoring Gino, or ANYONE ELSE, is just plain ignorant. For all we know Gino might be right, and if people listened to you, well you'd just be leading the entire community down the wrong path. Please stop posting, because from my point of view it seems like you're the only one right now who is "putting grease on the fire"

We have to take everyone's arguments and opinions into account no matter how unsubstantiated they are. If they can't substantiate their claims, well then, it's up to the rest of us to try and find proof one way or the other with or without the help of the original claimaint.

Since this is a point that has seemingly run out of sources of evidence for the moment, rather than making this a pissing contest or continuing with the "i'm right, you're wrong" posts.... perhaps time would be better spent going to all of your respective "vader info sources" and trying to confirm what the heck all these people with opinions have claimed.

 

[GINO]

A couple more things I think should be pointed out that I think there seems to be misconceptions about are these:

- Brian did not work on the entire Vader costume for ANH.
- He had nothing to do with the detailing or finishing of the Vader helmet/armor/shins for ANH. Only the sculpting aspects.
- Brian did not work on Vader in any capacity for ESB or ROTJ.


.

 

[defstartrooper]

I think it does apply to GINO's sources

I think it does too, but GINO thinks otherwise it seems, have you ever seen him post anything along the lines of, my sources tell me differently or my sources say this is true ? no you'll only ever see him say every other source than his is wrong, he doesn't accept that there's a possibility his source is wrong or mistaken, EVER.

Always a very bold very definate statement from GINO, you're wrong, that's incorrect, your sources are mistaken etc etc, not once ever have i seen a " that's different to what my sources tell me "


If he's going to make staements that people involved in the production can be wrong he has to also accept that it's possible his source could be wrong too.

I don't think it's too much to ask that we don't at least question, or try and dig deeper for the truth.

Questions are always good but why should GINO or his sources be beyond question ?

 

[Clutch]

You are arguing about HOW he says things. Just because he says it is does not mean that it really is. People have questioned him repeatedly about his info and he either does not answer or says that he is not at liberty to discuss it. Did Brian give up his source?

Can Gino and Brian just agree to disagree and move on? Probably not. Neither side is willing to offer up any proof other than their word.