Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation

[Art Andrews]

See what? Other than information from the guys on the film, from Lucas down, what is there but supposition. You can say that we're misinformed or have bad memories when it suits but where are you going to get your information from? Where have all the facts come from? It's yours ( or anyone else's) choice to believe me or not.

Brian

Again, please don't misunderstand my position. Understand that I am looking at a broader issue than the particular disagreement between you and Gino.

My issue is with those who seem to have taken the stance of "how dare you question person X (in this case, you) because person x worked on the film!" Seems some of those are now slightly modifying that stance to "how can you argue against Brian when he has provided a mountain of evidence to support his assessment?" Well, that is a different matter entirely isn't it? It seems that we are now getting around to that.

 

[SithLord]

I just don't think we are going to make any more forward progress on that one because this is purely a matter of opinion and mine is no more valuable than yours. You see it as disrespect. I don't.

Yes, I see it as disrespect. If you do not then I can only shake my head.

Let's have a synopsis, shall we? Items of note in bold for Gino, italics for Brian, and bold italics for Brian where he is offended. You might not see it as disrespectful, but as a mod you have an obligation to ensure that members here are not offended. But you ignore everything Gino has done here to offend Brian Muir.



Gino:
No new helmet molds made for ROTJ (no ROTJ specific mold, period).
It's just incorrect information to say that there was anything specifically molded for the ROTJ production (in regards to vader) with the exception of the newly created chestbox.

Brian:
Gino, in an earlier post you state
There were no new fibreglass helmets made for ROTJ
They were all ESB refurbished
You are wrong - 2 or 3 helmets were cast specifically to be screen used and I know the person who cast them
You say that no new helmet molds were made specific to ROTJ - even if that is true the mold that the 2-3 ROTJ screen used helmets came from becomes a ROTJ mold

Gino:
Besides, tell me I'm wrong to say that Brian has a run of these helmets planned.

Brian:
I take exception to that remark!! Are you comparing me to Ainsworth?

Gino:
Only in the fact that there are a lot of people who will take the word of someone connected to the films as golden much too easily.
I certainly hope that's the only parallel that will be able to be drawn in the future, but a lot of that depends on you.
I can say that the bolstering of this particular helmet followed by the decision to do a run of them is not what I would call a step in the right direction.

Gino:
Never said he was not telling the truth. Just that he has been given incorrect information.

Gino:
I believe Brian's is basing his assumptions on his friend who is clearly mistaken about what he had.
If you aren't ready to accept that is extremely common amongst production people, then I don't know what else to tell you.

Gino:
BTW, let's be clear about what Brian's role in Vader was exactly.
He took the McQuarrie concept sketches and sculpted the faceplate, dome, chest armor, and shins that we all have come to know.
For that, I (and millions of others) are eternally grateful. That is a HUGE distinction and one that I have ample respect for.
But that is where Brian's part in the creation of Vader ended.
From that point, the clay sculpts were turned into plaster positives, that someone else refined. Then those plaster positives were molded by someone else which birthed the fiberglass helmet and armor casts, and the vac formed shins.
Then, it was turned over to the art department for finishing, painting, and detailing.
So does that make Brian an expert on all things Vader. In my opinion not at all.
To be more clear, his involvement and knowledge stops at the initial sculpting point.
To claim any more than that in my opinion is over reaching one's boundaries.

Brian:
OMG you're now telling ME and everyone else what I did on the film!! Your arrogance and misinformation knows no bounds. Yet again you are WRONG on many points.

Gino:
I don't see how you could call what I said arrogant.
If I am wrong about any of what I said in that post regarding you and your role in the creation of Vader, then please clarify.

Brian:
Why? Because you'll only argue and tell me I'm wrong - same as stating the guy who cast the ROTJ helmets didn't know he did them because you said he didn't

Gino:
So then are you disputing what I said or not?
And if so, EVERYONE would love to know what else you were responsible for.

Brian:
Yes I am disputing your version of what I did on ANH but I've wasted enough time on you - what's the point in discussing it with someone who thinks he knows it all and becomes insulting when the facts do not suit his own agenda.
Sadly you won't be ignored

Gino:
Ok you are disputing it, but not saying what was incorrect. Ok.
For someone who bashed Ainsworth (and rightfully so) for taking on credit for work he did not actually do, I would think that Brian would want to take advantage of the opportunity to clarify exactly what his role in vader's creation was.
ESPECIALLY, if someone posted such and he saw mistakes in what he read.
Unless there are no mistakes.

Gino:
Brian basically started going thread after thread posting direct insults (4 to be exact before I was able to put a stop to it).
I can't believe that someone such as Brian would stoop to that level.
Arguing on forums is for us lowly folk. People like Brian is supposed to be 'above' it. At least in my opinion.

Brian:
above' what exactly? Why should I be 'above' it when you're the one that insults anyone who disagrees with you?
Let's tell the truth here - all I did was post on your site that Darth Karo's Vader was #1 in my opinion but yours was a good attempt
Also I posted on your monologue to your fans which said that you're fed up with telling everyone you're right and they're wrong that you were wrong about the ROTJ helmets and you know it
I wanted to come off your site as I do not want to be assosiated with a site that is about you only and knew that this would be a quick result and it was great fun!!

Gino:
I say this with all sincerity. It is very disappointing to see someone (almost a hero amongst us) stoop to that kind of behavior. Regardless of any disagreements, it saddens me to see the ugly (human) side of our 'heroes'.


EDIT: to clarify:

Originally Posted by GINO:
No, but there is harm in mislabeling something.
Mark my words, but I would not be surprised to see if somehow this helmet is being bolstered up so that it can be later cashed in on in one form or another.

Originally Posted by SithLord:
This is Brian Muir you are talking about.

Originally Posted by GINO:
If I recall correctly, you said the exact same thing about Andrew Ainsworth.
Besides, tell me I'm wrong to say that Brian has a run of these helmets planned.

Brian:
I take exception to that remark!! Are you comparing me to Ainsworth?

 

[CSMacLaren]

Art,

And with respect, for a third time, I need to point out that this is not an issue of "how dare you question Brian" but about disrespectful communication with Brian by Gino based on a presumption by Gino that all ROTJ's masks are recycled ESBs and therefore Brian's claim cannot be true.

Had Gino not made this ROTJ=Recycled ESB statement (which some believe to be false) there would be no premise for Gino to make any kind of statements that would offend Brian.

Again, the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.

Why are people who don't like seeing accusations made without evidence being painted as "how dare you question Brian"?

Why is Gino not being asked to back up his statements?

This is not a light matter. If Gino and his friends have a culture of just believing Gino without question, that is your prerogative, but in a public discussion venue it is not right to expect the public to follow suit and believe blindly and without blinking.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Art,

Why are people who don't like seeing accusations made without evidence being painted as "how dare you question Brian"?

Not to answer for Art, but there have been quite a few examples of the above quote in this very thread.

Let me tell you of my Vader interactions with GINO. I can sum them up quite simply. He has said the evidence is out there, has pointed me in the right direction and I saw his conclusions making perfect sense. No guiding lines, no badgering with photo after photo, just "Hey, what do you see here?".

The best example was the appearance suit pieces made post-Jedi in the picture that started this whole mishagosh. When I took them time to look at the photo, the differences in the pieces stood out like sore thumbs. No need to point me in any direction. Look at the boxes, look at the helmet mounting rings and how they differ from the RotJ pic from CIV. We know that was a screen used RotJ piece. I will say it would be nice to get some juicy, up close pics of that facemaks though.

Here is a question: Aside from the chin vent, how many details are TRULY carried over from movie to movie with the helmets? I would wager a great many more than we think.

 

[SithLord]

Sure, Gino knows his stuff about the costumes. But he doesn't know everything. That's why we are fortunate enough to have people like Brian Muir and Don Bies here (perhaps others whom we have yet the pleasure of knowing). And there is nothing wrong with asking someone to clarify or give more detail if they are willing or able about something they state. But Gino is doing more than that, much more. He is discrediting Brian Muir in terms of his claimed actions on Gino's forum, and in terms of stating that Brian has no knowledge apart from his sculpting work.

Why?

Because he claims Brian simply wishes to do a run of ROTJ Vader helmets? And all of this because Brian states as fact there was a Vader helmet mold made for ROTJ?

I am really at a loss about all of this, in terms of what a big disappointment it is to see. And now the mods are justifying it because it is a he said/she said issue?

Remember when Gino said the original shins were vacuformed? Wrong. They were initially fiberglass and there is footage to prove it, along with what Brian recalled as fact.

Just because Gino knows a lot about how the costumes should look doesn't mean he knows everything about the production. He doesn't.

 

[vaderdarth]

Please tell me I'm not seeing the moderators of this forum giving equality to the claims being made by gino versus those being made by an actual guy who worked on the production. Please tell me I'm misreading all this crap!!! gino's credibility gets shakier and shakier by the day and this is the best this forum moderation body can come up with???? Just when you thought you'd seen it all. The guy has been banned on every other forum he's been privy to except this one and his own private ego boosting universe. Someone want to explain to me how a known liar and con man can get credibility with a history like that??? Jeeeesshhhh!!!!

 

[vader71]

I am a huge Vader nut and the last hour has been a real waste of time......

Guys this back and forth is not good for the hobby. Lets look at photos and improve our collections, because this is a hobby of never ending upgrades.

 

[Darth_Finger]

Lets look at photos and improve our collections, because this is a hobby of never ending upgrades.

:thumbsup

 

[Clutch]

Please tell me I'm not seeing the moderators of this forum giving equality to the claims being made by gino versus those being made by an actual guy who worked on the production. Please tell me I'm misreading all this crap!!! gino's credibility gets shakier and shakier by the day and this is the best this forum moderation body can come up with???? Just when you thought you'd seen it all. The guy has been banned on every other forum he's been privy to except this one and his own private ego boosting universe. Someone want to explain to me how a known liar and con man can get credibility with a history like that??? Jeeeesshhhh!!!!

If the tables were turned, I'd take the same stance. To me, they are members of the forum. One doesn't carry any more weight than the other.

 

[ArtisanProps]

In the past I remember all the discussions many of us had as we were
trying to find out facts about the costume. Many of us even talked to the man
who wore the costume, Mr David Prowse himself.... You'd think that the person
who wore the costume would know that costume backwards and forwards, but
as we all know, it's been proven that David Prowses' memory is not quite up
to par when it comes to the facts.. That being said. I don't find it insulting
for someone to question anothers memory, especially since a great many
years have passed since that time.... I personally didn't see anything insulting
about Gino's post, I guess it's all how you interpret it, besides if you think
someone is arrogant, then you'll likely take everyting they say as arrogant..


Normally I would say keep the thread going because I love reading about this
stuff, but I think this thread should have stayed locked, because it's nothing
more then a dogpile thead now

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Okay wow...I am going on an OT rant here, but right now, it cannot be helped.

I have just watched a crew of regulars from the Prop Den SLAM the moderation staff here for being OBJECTIVE. Really guys, this is what you resort to when the chips do not fall in the way you choose? That is juvenile.

Seriously, this place has been around for a looooong time, and Vaderdarth/dentist whatever, you know it as well myself and others that the moderation here has been MUCH MUCH worse over the years. Let's look back on the Flame Pit times for a minute. A lot of you were twisted about like puppets on a string by members who are no longer here.(No need to name names) They twisted the knives and laughed with glee as people danced THEIR dance, and the moderation pretty much turned a blind eye. "Hey, it's the flame pit, who cares?"

Yes, I have thought a few times that maybe it DOES need to be brought back, but do ANY of you who are badmouthing the staff even know how to step back and be objective? No, where the rules are less strict, you dogpile, talk about former members who cannot defend themselves and push wares of less than reputable former RPFers. Dare I even talk about the how the Trooper suits of a certain someone are bragged about in other spots?

This place is VERY well policed, and while I have not ever so much as been given a warning, I HAVE had to temper my words and take a step back from the dangerous "Reply" button at the top of the forum here. Some of you have lost sight of the fun of this place, and that sickens me. Yes, I am GUILTY of having gotten into pissing matches with some of you, but there ARE some of you, who if I met in person, would buy a drink and sit down with you. Granted, there are some I would make sure you know how I feel, but for the most part, we are ALL decent people behind the keys.

The reason why this board sees a lot of traffic is that it IS better policed than most places. We are kept civil here, and frankly, that gives us pause to think about our words. We know that the replica prop community, depite how many forums are out there, is relatively small. For cripes sake, this place should be fun to come to. That is why people go to the OT forum. We all share a common ground in our love of props, so, when not discussing props, we find other things to share.

We ALL need to take a step back and realize that when it is all said and done, we are talking about fiberglass and vacuum formed HDPE or ABS. That's it.

 

[darthvaderv]

Here is a question: Aside from the chin vent, how many details are TRULY carried over from movie to movie with the helmets? I would wager a great many more than we think.

Yes, many are carried over Hector but there are also many changes from ESB to Jedi.

There are small points that differ on the ESB to ROTJ domes and it being overall a bit more refined, eliminating the small bumbs/nicks/indents a fair amount and in some cases removing them completely, so, if you add those up it's enough to be distinctive. Does it come from an ESB dome? At some point yes. I can not confirm whether it was altered and then cast as a seperate mold or an exsisting ESB. Both are possible but with everything it's looking like a new mold IMO. Either way I leave any possibility somewhat open as we just don't know what went on entirely as I claimed at the start of this thread.

As for the face there are many small differences that attribute to the recognition of these pieces, this is not just based on screen caps but handling both authentic casts and mainly corresponding to my picture reference for the most part of what you can see on screen caps and other images. However, as close as they are, they are not screen pieces right off the set so as cast off original's you have to eliminate some of those findings even though the majority correspond but it's very hard to make out all dents and small blobs on reference.

It's also worth noting the ROTS documentary supposed ROTJ faceplate that Ivo holds, I have not reviewed it recently but it shows a cast in mount if memory serves, most likely cast after ROTJ was made which some base as a seperate mold, which would be incorrect somewhat.
Another thing I have seen about the ROTJ raw casts is the tusks in the mold on more than one offering. So I'm leaning towards a new mold based on the differences, Brian Muir knowing the fibreglasser and everything else that tells me the revisions would of been quite an undertaking, however, I know the differences between the casts between ESB/ROTJ but as I wasn't there and no independant research has given me the clear answer and not to mention the amount of promotional, souvenir and tour pulls it's hard to dismiss anything entirely.

As I said at the start of this thread not all ESB's were turned into Jedi due to what exsists today, that is of my belief based on items like the Planet Hollywood ESB Vader having much in common with the 2nd ESB Hero, of course it's very easy to state my opinion as fact but I will remain open-minded due to the actions they did throughout 1976-1982.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

That was well put, Paul. Thanks.

 

[SHalamar]

And this is why I resumes pretty much lurking on the various prop boards. I love Vader. I costume as Vader, (And for that, I am seen by some to be 'inferior'), and I always want better information on the outfit, information that I will never see, or have, because I'm not in an exclusive club, so I gather what few crumbs I can find.

That said, I would trust the word of Brian over Gino for one simple reason: Brian worked on the flims, and worked on the suit. Gino may have great info, but he refuses to share, thus, he can't be trusted. If Brian did a run of those helmets (And I doubt he would) I would happily purchase one, and actually WEAR it.

So Nyah!

 

[kalarcana]

Art,

This is a load of crap. You are allowing Gino to yet again bait and troll. The perception, whether correct or not, is that you KEEP defending Gino as someone above reproach. This appears to happen even though you state otherwise. Gino, keeps making accusations, not questions, without showing ANY evidence to support his mouthing-off. There have been many prior members of the RPF who have been banned for LESS. However, yet this cycle with Gino is allowed to repeat and repeat itself.

The RPF stance, since I’ve been a member, has always been the ACCUSER had to provide the proof, not the accused. If this exception for Gino is going to be the stance of the Moderators can I request that the RPF be renamed to the “RPF and Gino’s other Vader board?”



Rick

 

[d_jedi1]

Frankly, this thread is an embarassment to the Vader community.

QFT
The guys at work want to know when the videos of everyone jumping into the ring for a knife fight will be posted.
I have virtually NO knowledge of Vader and threads like this with pointless bickering don't do much to help other than provide the ocassional photo that one or more persons eventually call into question.

Maybe someday when egos arent as wild and rainbow ponies run in lavendar fields, I'll be able to make my own, accurate, Vader display :cry

 

[defstartrooper]

This is stupid guys you all know full well GINO is not going to post the proof that all the ROTJ helmets are refurb ESB if it even exists, he's just not, he doesn't share information everyone knows that, it's pointless asking.
All you're doing is aguing back and forth between yourselves, who's the one person not posting ? all you will ever get from GINO is "you're wrong", "you're mistaken","your source is wrong" etc etc you'll get nothing more so quit wasting your time expecting anything else.
Be productive and discuss the helmets rather than GINO or the Den or the RPF staff.

 

[lonepigeon]

I don't want to get into reading all this kind of crap again, but it's funny how much people are just into arguing and not comprehending what's been said.

This is a public forum so anyone is allowed to voice an opinion.
Half the examples quoted of Gino "insulting" Brian are just a differing opinion. There are a few real insults thrown in there like accusations of a planned run of helmets. That was uncalled for IMO.

If you look at the plain facts though there's not a lot of disagreement.

Brian says there were a few helmets pulled from a mold for ROTJ.
He does NOT state this mold was specifically made for ROTJ and even says that it may have been a leftover ESB mold (SithLord quoted all this, but misquotes Brian later in the thread).
If it was an ESB mold then it would be very difficult to distinguish one of these helmets from a refurbished ESB. Perhaps Gino is mistaken and there are a couple ROTJs that were newer cast from the same mold?

On the flip side Brian's friend said he made helmets from a mold for ROTJ - was this for ROTJ or just at the time of ROTJ? Does Brian's friend know what happened to the helmets after they were pulled from the mold? Who finished them? We already know that promo Vaders were being made around this time (photo in Chronicles, info from Don Bies). Does Brian's friend know for certain the helmets he pulled were used on screen? Could he be mistaken?

Neither side is going to badger the other into changing their opinion without solid proof (which neither has, or at least has offered). No use arguing about it back and forth.

 

[Trap Joe]

This is stupid guys you all know full well GINO is not going to post the proof that all the ROTJ helmets are refurb ESB if it even exists, he's just not, he doesn't share information everyone knows that, it's pointless asking.
All you're doing is aguing back and forth between yourselves, who's the one person not posting ? all you will ever get from GINO is "you're wrong", "you're mistaken","your source is wrong" etc etc you'll get nothing more so quit wasting your time expecting anything else.
Be productive and discuss the helmets rather than GINO or the Den or the RPF staff.

that´s what I meant as well!:thumbsup
We all should ignore Gino´s show and concentrate on the substance.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

I don't want to get into reading all this kind of crap again, but it's funny how much people are just into arguing and not comprehending what's been said.

This is a public forum so anyone is allowed to voice an opinion.
Half the examples quoted of Gino "insulting" Brian are just a differing opinion. There are a few real insults thrown in there like accusations of a planned run of helmets. That was uncalled for IMO.

If you look at the plain facts though there's not a lot of disagreement.

Brian says there were a few helmets pulled from a mold for ROTJ.
He does NOT state this mold was specifically made for ROTJ and even says that it may have been a leftover ESB mold (SithLord quoted all this, but misquotes Brian later in the thread).
If it was an ESB mold then it would be very difficult to distinguish one of these helmets from a refurbished ESB. Perhaps Gino is mistaken and there are a couple ROTJs that were newer cast from the same mold?

On the flip side Brian's friend said he made helmets from a mold for ROTJ - was this for ROTJ or just at the time of ROTJ? Does Brian's friend know what happened to the helmets after they were pulled from the mold? Who finished them? We already know that promo Vaders were being made around this time (photo in Chronicles, info from Don Bies). Does Brian's friend know for certain the helmets he pulled were used on screen? Could he be mistaken?

Neither side is going to badger the other into changing their opinion without solid proof (which neither has, or at least has offered). No use arguing about it back and forth.

Chris, that is the real grey area in the whole thing. Is there only the one mold? If the mold was brought to Brian's friend and he made castings from that for RotJ, would that not make the mold a RotJ mold? A better question is "Will we ever really know?"