Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation

[Art Andrews]

Why should I argue against it when Brian is here to argue it for himself?

Why should you argue against it?!? I would think as a Vader fan you would want the facts to be straight, so if Gino's post was inaccurate, I would think you would be compelled to correct him!

Even though you asked why you should argue against it, I appreciate you breaking it down and making corrections.

Both Mollo and Muir said the original helmets were black, not two-toned. So they are both wrong?

That sounds like a debate for another thread... here I always thought the helmets were two-toned, but lets not get off-track.

So by your own interpretation there is nothing disrespectful about this post? Just because YOU don't know what Brian did?

Again, apparently what you feel is disrespectful and what I feel is disrespectful is just personal opinion. To answer your question specifically, no I don't see that post as being disrespectful. Gino wasn't calling Brian names or belittling him. Gino's pointing out that Brian had a limited role in creating Vader isn't disrespectful, but appears, even by your own admission to be true.

 

[KevVader]

Frankly, this thread is an embarassment to the Vader community.

Instead of try and reason with Gino's way of thinking friends - Clutch/Art, why not get this thread back on track or shut it down?

^QFT...lock it. It's turned into a schoolyard fight despite the best efforts of some to get it on track.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

You know Art, I told GINO this very thing would happen. The ONLY response any of the Den Folks can ever give for EVER questioning their mod rule is "Oh, he must be a GINO puppet". No, we can't possibly be free thinking human beings.

Tell me it isn't a "mob rule" over there. I was told by a member that my defense of someone made me a laughing stock of that particular "Vader Community". I was told by another member that I was basically ostracized from ever taking part in any runs from the Den because I defended a good acquaintance.

Brian, if what GINO told me you did on his forum is true, that is very much beneath you. Cripes man, you are the REASON we are discussing this in the first place. YOU are part of the reason we even have the Darth Vader we do. To get into a petty pissing match is...just sad.

 

[Art Andrews]

So if GINO has consensus on his own discussion board that all ROTJ masks are recycled ESB masks, he is free to act accordingly against others without proof?

For the record, (and I already posted this once in this thread) I am JUST as against Gino or anyone who makes "just trust me" posts. I think posts of that nature are counter-productive to the very nature of the hobby.

PMed you about Prop Den.

 

[Clutch]

^QFT...lock it. It's turned into a schoolyard fight despite the best efforts of some to get it on track.

It's already been locked once and we were asked to re-open it. It is very maddening to see this kind of thing because it is one person's word against another. That will lead us nowhere.

 

[SithLord]

Even though you asked why you should argue against it, I appreciate you breaking it down and making corrections.

I did, please see my post #555.

But even if Gino was entirely correct, that doesn't change the tone of his post nor the intent. I was correct about the accuracies about Gino's ANH costume but got an infraction because of my tone. Did the mods care at that point if what I said about his costume was accurate or not? No. But it almost seems as if you are making it out that Gino is justified in what he states in any way that he wishes so long as he is correct?

That sounds like a debate for another thread... here I always thought the helmets were two-toned, but lets not get off-track.

Yes later and as we see onscreen they went with the two-toned look but without the contribution of information from people like Brian Muir how would we know something like that?

Again, apparently what you feel is disrespectful and what I feel is disrespectful is just personal opinion. To answer your question specifically, no I don't see that post as being disrespectful. Gino wasn't calling Brian names or belittling him. Gino's pointing out that Brian had a limited role in creating Vader isn't disrespectful, but appears, even by your own admission to be true.

So unless a post has name calling in it or explicit references to belittle someone it is respectful?

So does that make Brian an expert on all things Vader. In my opinion not at all.
To be more clear, his involvement and knowledge stops at the initial sculpting point.
To claim any more than that in my opinion is over reaching one's boundaries.

We have here on this forum the original creator of the Darth Vader helmet/armor/shins. The man who took the concept of Ralph McQuarrie and made it into the final image of Vader we see onscreen that carries over throughout the SW series. And here is Gino, saying that this gentleman's contributions are simply limited to sculpting and that he has no other knowledge beyond that.

How is that not an insult? How is that not disrespectful? Oh, because you think it is true?

 

[CSMacLaren]

For the record, (and I already posted this once in this thread) I am JUST as against Gino or anyone who makes "just trust me" posts. I think posts of that nature are counter-productive to the very nature of the hobby.

PMed you about Prop Den.

PM replied. Thanks for being willing to examine the Den threads.

SithLord, I'm not good at finding threads. Can you post some Den links for Art that are pertinent to this ROTJ=ESB debate? Thanks.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

So...um...where were we with the actual topic? I know I, for one, would want to get back to it.

 

[SithLord]

It's already been locked once and we were asked to re-open it. It is very maddening to see this kind of thing because it is one person's word against another. That will lead us nowhere.

Well I am sure if we got Brian's friend who worked on ROTJ in contact with LFL they could confirm if he was telling the truth, just as LFL confirmed that Brian was who he said he was. What would Brian have to gain by misleading us? This is much more than just one person's word against another.

 

[SithLord]

PM replied. Thanks for being willing to examine the Den threads.

SithLord, I'm not good at finding threads. Can you post some Den links for Art that are pertinent to this ROTJ=ESB debate? Thanks.

Mainly this one on the discussion continued from this thread here:

http://thepropden.aokforums.com/rpf...nued-dot-dot-dot-friendly-version-vt2649.html

And this one about Brian's original ROTJ Vader helmet...

http://thepropden.aokforums.com/vader-from-original-film-mould-return-of-the-jedi-vt2619.html

 

[Art Andrews]

What exactly is it that you go on? Because if don't believe the guys that worked on the production what's left? Supposition - based on what? My memory cannot be based on what you can or can't remember - there are things in my working life that are extremely clear. Star Wars is one of them. I'm not infallible but I only give information based on fact. For anyone who has or is working in the British Film Industry will understand what a small community it is.
I am not adverse to being questioned or in any way feel 'above it 'but other than naming the guy on the production ( which I'm sure anyone on this forum knows is never done)
I've gladly shared knowledge and information for 4 years with the forums with no agenda other than knowing how important it is to the Vader community - whatever Gino would have you believe.

Brian, I hope you understand that my comments are no attack on you. My comments are not at all about not believing those who worked on production. We love you guys and love when you share your recollections, such as the info and images you shared regarding troopers... However, I generally don't like to simply rely on the word of ANYONE, but like to see it for myself.

 

[Clutch]

I don't think Brian is trying to gain anything. But isn't Brian going on the word of this person who he got the helmet from?

 

[CSMacLaren]

You know Art, I told GINO this very thing would happen. The ONLY response any of the Den Folks can ever give for EVER questioning their mod rule is "Oh, he must be a GINO puppet". No, we can't possibly be free thinking human beings.

Tell me it isn't a "mob rule" over there. I was told by a member that my defense of someone made me a laughing stock of that particular "Vader Community". I was told by another member that I was basically ostracized from ever taking part in any runs from the Den because I defended a good acquaintance.

Brian, if what GINO told me you did on his forum is true, that is very much beneath you. Cripes man, you are the REASON we are discussing this in the first place. YOU are part of the reason we even have the Darth Vader we do. To get into a petty pissing match is...just sad.

Gonz,

Last I checked, there was "mob rule" here too. When SithLord dared ask the tough question on the origin of GINO's ANH mask - which, as you know, is claimed to be made from so-called untainted original sources - people were upon him like attack dogs, ridiculing his analysis, and assailing him like flies to sh**. (Sorry, Thomas, not saying you're sh**.)

People took his analysis and started mocking his squiggly lines by scribbling nonsensical ones of their own.

Remember what you told me? "Come on, Mac, you've debated him and re-analyzed his many comparisons." Yes, I have - but I'm not so personally out to debate Thomas down that I cannot be unbiased to see that what he was saying that day actually had validity - and if the mob stopped mocking for a moment and tried to listen, they might have gained insight earlier on.

Most recently several of us analyzed photos of GINO's ANH and concluded this helmet that's supposed to be from "untainted sources" is simply a VP mask with a Jeff/GH ANH dome. After some disagreement from mainly you, I don't think anyone has stepped forward to say the analysis was entirely wrong.

So the mob who shut SL down here on the RPF and caused the thread to get locked pretty much had nothing to say about our analysis of the Gino ANH helmet.

It's almost as if the M.O. is the same. SithLord says something and the default response from the GINO Mob is "Andrew Ainsworth".

So let's have a more balanced view before pointing the finger at the Den. I happen to like the Den because here on the RPF or on GINO's own forum, GINO will assail viewpoints and people who disagree with him. Why the RPF continues to allow this trolling behavior is unfortunate, but I'm glad that behavior is disallowed on the Den so we can actually enjoy some factual discussions without being bullied.

 

[CSMacLaren]

I don't think Brian is trying to gain anything. But isn't Brian going on the word of this person who he got the helmet from?

Wouldn't you be going on the word of GINO who in turn is going on the word of his alleged secret LFL relationships?

You can't talk directly to those secret LFL relationships or even verify if they exist.

At least you can talk directly to Brian. Back in 1977 he was there. GINO was still a little lad like many of us and was nowhere near the set.

 

[Clutch]

Wouldn't you be going on the word of GINO who in turn is going on the word of his alleged secret LFL relationships?

You can't talk directly to those secret LFL relationships or even verify if they exist.

At least you can talk directly to Brian. Back in 1977 he was there. GINO was still a little lad like many of us and was nowhere near the set.

You're are right.

I'm not going to be convinced until I see a polaroid of someone pouring the rubber. :lol

 

[SithLord]

I don't think Brian is trying to gain anything. But isn't Brian going on the word of this person who he got the helmet from?

Yes, we don't know that person and as you can see in TPD thread about his helmet, I have my own fair share of questions for Brian. But I ask in a respectful manner. That doesn't take away from Gino's intent here to belittle Brian's knowledge of the ANH production and his role in it.

 

[Brian Muir]

Brian, I hope you understand that my comments are no attack on you. My comments are not at all about not believing those who worked on production. We love you guys and love when you share your recollections, such as the info and images you shared regarding troopers... However, I generally don't like to simply rely on the word of ANYONE, but like to see it for myself.

See what? Other than information from the guys on the film, from Lucas down, what is there but supposition. You can say that we're misinformed or have bad memories when it suits but where are you going to get your information from? Where have all the facts come from? It's yours ( or anyone else's) choice to believe me or not.

Brian

 

[StarWars Collector]

Gino, I'm still waiting for my question to be answered...

Never said he was not telling the truth. Just that he has been given incorrect information.

On what do you base this opinion?

 

[Art Andrews]

How is that not an insult? How is that not disrespectful? Oh, because you think it is true?

I just don't think we are going to make any more forward progress on that one because this is purely a matter of opinion and mine is no more valuable than yours. You see it as disrespect. I don't.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Gonz,

Last I checked, there was "mob rule" here too. When SithLord dared ask the tough question on the origin of GINO's ANH mask - which, as you know, is claimed to be made from so-called untainted original sources - people were upon him like attack dogs, ridiculing his analysis, and assailing him like flies to sh**. (Sorry, Thomas, not saying you're sh**.)

People took his analysis and started mocking his squiggly lines by scribbling nonsensical ones of their own.

Remember what you told me? "Come on, Mac, you've debated him and re-analyzed his many comparisons." Yes, I have - but I'm not so personally out to debate Thomas down that I cannot be unbiased to see that what he was saying that day actually had validity - and if the mob stopped mocking for a moment and tried to listen, they might have gained insight earlier on.

Most recently several of us analyzed photos of GINO's ANH and concluded this helmet that's supposed to be from "untainted sources" is simply a VP mask with a Jeff/GH ANH dome. After some disagreement from mainly you, I don't think anyone has stepped forward to say the analysis was entirely wrong.

So the mob who shut SL down here on the RPF and caused the thread to get locked pretty much had nothing to say about our analysis of the Gino ANH helmet.

It's almost as if the M.O. is the same. SithLord says something and the default response from the GINO Mob is "Andrew Ainsworth".

So let's have a more balanced view before pointing the finger at the Den. I happen to like the Den because here on the RPF or on GINO's own forum, GINO will assail viewpoints and people who disagree with him. Why the RPF continues to allow this trolling behavior is unfortunate, but I'm glad that behavior is disallowed on the Den so we can actually enjoy some factual discussions without being bullied.

So, one person is inciting the RPF? The reason the RPF has lasted as long as it has is because of its unbiased nature. There are many imitators to this place, but we ALL gravitate right back home.

I can say this, the reason that Thomas' analyses are always brought under scrutiny is that they are usually flawed. I can appreciate the effort he has put into them, sure, but wrong is wrong.

As to GINO's helmets: Last I recall, he has not posted any clear comparison shots of his helmets OR his domes. I may be wrong, but they fall flat from the guidelines you like to push of "6 feet distance please". It is hard to call your conclusions valid when they lack sound evidence. Even you can agree with that.

We have a longer history here of Thomas and his comparisons than you are privvy to. Again, while I respect what work he puts into his comps, I am of the opinion that they are flawed, using flawed resources. Second-hand photos and distorted screen shots do not a good comparison make, hmm?

Thomas, nothing personal. I understand you are trying to establish a defensive front.