Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
I'd wager most people expected it to flop and flop hard. They likely did not look at Star Wars then the way we look at it now. So, why bother saving anything?
Original ANH Stormtrooper helmet and Armor - Just the Facts
- Thread starter Brian Muir
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- star wars a new hope
You just don't get it do you?
Just trying to save you from embarrassing yourself AGAIN but I see it's already to late! :lol
Just trying to save you from embarrassing yourself AGAIN but I see it's already to late! :lol
Brian Muir
Well-Known Member
This thread was started to give the facts on the Stormtrooper helmet and armour as far as possible.
I don't see anything positive in bringing up past arguements which were caused by Ainsworth's stream of lies that were believed at the time because the facts were not available.
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
That's because there is nothing positive to be gained by it. I also think this is not a place for blown up, distorted photo comparisons. We are discussing the sculpt, last I recall. I believe it is safe to assume that Ainsworth likely recast some other trooper guy's helmet to make his molds. (Note the word "likely" to denote my opinion ONLY!)
Brian Muir
Well-Known Member
The author of The Making of Star Wars, J W Rinzler, collated information from interviews in the archives. He incorrectly gave Liz Moore the credit for the armour and has apologized and said it would be amended in the second edition.
John Mollo did an interview with Charles Lippincott on 6th April 1978 where he states that a modeler in the Art Department modeled the armour on a plaster cast of a figure.
As my name had not been mentioned since the production, but Liz was known for working on C3P0, Rinzler presumed that it was Liz that John was talking about.
wolf
Active Member
Sorry Brian, just posted at the same time as you. This clears that up, roll on second edition. The other strange thing is that some of the Stormtrooper art/storyboard pics have a helmet slightly like the Pemberton "sculpt" and have a shoulder bell design very like an earlier C3P0 shoulder piece in the "Making of "book, I thought the storyboard artist must have visited the sculpting workshop for some sort of inspiration.
geordietrooper
Sr Member
looks like i need to buy that book :love
Sorry Brian and your right.
That was the point I was trying to make.
We don't need to bring up past endless photo-comparisions.
That was the point I was trying to make.
We don't need to bring up past endless photo-comparisions.
Ainsworth keeps posting additional replies to my comments, several hours to a day later after his initial replies. The facts seem to be weighing heavily on him, and it is evident in his responses that he knows he is guilty and just trying to save face in public.
Ainsworth is grasping at straws.
"HI Dan
Just think a little more about the Red Clay helmey senario.
What about the `Still`s man`
Every film production employes a photograper to record the making of the movie for puplicity and documentaries etc, - a Still`s man`
Where are all the stills for the making of the Stormtrooper.?
There is only one ( the Red Clay helmet) and that was only in the studios for about 1/2 hour for Nick`s meeting with Lucas.. The stills man was pretty fast to catch it.
If Liz Moore had sculpted this, there would be loads of development photographs, just as ther are of c3po etc."
Really? And where are Ainsworth or Pemberton's photos? We've all seen several photos of Ainsworth's stacks of formed helmets and such, but not a single one of them sculpting anything.
What I find really disturbing is this comment:
"So how did Liz Moore give it to me....
maybe in a hollogram....`your`e my last hope etc etc....."
Very poor taste, joking about a dead woman like that, especially while continuing to steal credit from her.
What doesn't Ainsworth understand here? Liz sculpts the helmet for the studio. Pemberton brings his concept to the studio and it is rejected, and Liz Moore's helmet is chosen. Pemberton then delivers the chosen concept to Ainsworth, keeping his interests in the production (despite the rejection of his helmet sculpt) by knowing a local guy who is set up to to vacuum forming.
In the end, Pemberton is just the middle-man between the Ainsworth and the studio. Who knows what story Pemberton gave to Ainsworth? In all fairness, Ainsworth might only have been misled by his buddy Pemberton all these years, and now he is desperately trying (and failing) to stick to the story.
Ainsworth is grasping at straws.
"HI Dan
Just think a little more about the Red Clay helmey senario.
What about the `Still`s man`
Every film production employes a photograper to record the making of the movie for puplicity and documentaries etc, - a Still`s man`
Where are all the stills for the making of the Stormtrooper.?
There is only one ( the Red Clay helmet) and that was only in the studios for about 1/2 hour for Nick`s meeting with Lucas.. The stills man was pretty fast to catch it.
If Liz Moore had sculpted this, there would be loads of development photographs, just as ther are of c3po etc."
Really? And where are Ainsworth or Pemberton's photos? We've all seen several photos of Ainsworth's stacks of formed helmets and such, but not a single one of them sculpting anything.
What I find really disturbing is this comment:
"So how did Liz Moore give it to me....
maybe in a hollogram....`your`e my last hope etc etc....."
Very poor taste, joking about a dead woman like that, especially while continuing to steal credit from her.
What doesn't Ainsworth understand here? Liz sculpts the helmet for the studio. Pemberton brings his concept to the studio and it is rejected, and Liz Moore's helmet is chosen. Pemberton then delivers the chosen concept to Ainsworth, keeping his interests in the production (despite the rejection of his helmet sculpt) by knowing a local guy who is set up to to vacuum forming.
In the end, Pemberton is just the middle-man between the Ainsworth and the studio. Who knows what story Pemberton gave to Ainsworth? In all fairness, Ainsworth might only have been misled by his buddy Pemberton all these years, and now he is desperately trying (and failing) to stick to the story.
geordietrooper
Sr Member
What I find really disturbing is this comment: So how did Liz Moore give it to me.... [I said:
i think that was in response to steve moors post
Brian Muir
Well-Known Member
The whole issue with the clay helmet is that before I became involved in the court case neither Ainsworth nor Pemberton made any claims to sculpting a clay helmet.
I told the Lucas lawyers that I saw a clay helmet in the Art Department covered up and I took a look at it - it was grey clay not terracotta. They then looked for any evidence and found the photo of the 2 helmets in Gary Kurtz's archive.
It was only then the story was fabricated from the Pemberton and Ainsworth's camp that Pemberton sculpted the clay helmet (who in their right minds would lay claim to the other helmet even though all their evidence pointed to it being Pemberton's ?). Ainsworth's whole case was to claim intellectual property rights so he had to claim design and therefore sculpting.
As the clay sculpt was obviously the Stormtrooper helmet we see on film his only 'story' could be that Pemberton did indeed sculpt a helmet but he couldn't use it as he damaged it in his rush - it collapsed in on itself - although it was solid clay ( Pemberton's version was that it was damaged by some sort of chemical reaction). Miraculously he sculpted the moulds with his ‘unique technique’ and although he made it to his own design it turned out exactly the same as Liz’s clay version.
The truth of the matter is :- Ainsworth received all the armour as finished moulds (tools) ready to be pulled on – I know this for a fact. I’m certain that Ainsworth never saw a clay helmet because it was moulded at Elstree Studios by the very experienced mould makers and he was given the finished moulds (tools) to be pulled on – exactly as the armour.
As far as his comment about Liz - it just shows the man has no morale fibre.
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geordietrooper said:
Indeed, it was, and I certainly didn't mean to suggest otherwise.
I still find it just as disturbing, however.
Mr. Muir,
Thank you for your comments. I believe you are absolutely correct.
I just finished a rather long reply to Ainsworth, referencing the information you have provided us, which has been extremely valuable and enlightening.
Ainsworth may never admit the truth, but we are all doing our best to confront him with the facts, publicly, for all to see and judge.
defstartrooper
Sr Member
The truth will out in the end, Ainsworth has three options.
Option one keep making up stories to back up previous stories in which case he will continue to make mistakes and contradict previous statements as we have all seen happen again and again which is a classic inherent problem with lying.
Option two is shut up completely in which case everyone only hears the truth.
Option three is grow some balls and admit he's lying.
I think we all know option three rarely happens with any liar so that really leaves him just tripping himself up at every turn and showing himself to be a liar to everyone or shutting up and letting the truth be told.
Option one keep making up stories to back up previous stories in which case he will continue to make mistakes and contradict previous statements as we have all seen happen again and again which is a classic inherent problem with lying.
Option two is shut up completely in which case everyone only hears the truth.
Option three is grow some balls and admit he's lying.
I think we all know option three rarely happens with any liar so that really leaves him just tripping himself up at every turn and showing himself to be a liar to everyone or shutting up and letting the truth be told.
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Brian Muir
Well-Known Member
Your post to Ainsworth covers many of the points and in a subtle way. It's a good way to take a break for Christmas. Perhaps he will now see the error of his ways and start the New Year with a clean sheet :angel - but I think we all know the route he'll take :unsure
Merry Christmas to everyone :cheers
geordietrooper
Sr Member
no problem & i agree his comment wasn't very nice
anyway happy crimbo everyone :cheers
This bit of testimony is interesting. Ainsworth's counsel is cross-examining Liz Moore's boyfriend and asked if he remembered what color clay she used to sculpt the Stormtrooper helmet.
From AA's website:
Richardson said she always used grey, he didn't say that he never saw her sculpt the helmet, he said that it was grey.
I havent read the rest of the transcript so I don't know if Ainsworth's lawyer tried to trip him up and claim that Liz couldn't have sculpted the helmet because the photo shows that it was red, but from Richardson's response, it seems pretty cut and dry that he did see Liz sculpt the helmet and it was in fact grey.
If Ainsworth/Pemberton did sculpt the helmet, why would Ainsworth's attorney even insinuate that someone else other than Ainsworth/Pemberton could have sculpted it by asking Richardson that question?
CSMacLaren
Sr Member
I'm looking again at the photo of the first post, then went over to Ainsworth's site to confirm that the image (above right) and its reddish hue were exactly as displayed on his site.
This is very poor color manipulation on Ainsworth's part, if he's trying to fabricate evidence of "red clay".
In the last shot (which Brian posted as a comparative control), Brian sculpting on a stand of pale wood. By comparison, his skin tone is not as pale, but the skintone looks natural, and the natural color of the clay is evident.
When you look at the top shot of Lucas, he looks a bit pasty, but the skin tone is still of normal hue. Liz' clay sculpt is on a stand of pale colored wood, but the wood looks normal. The desk's wood (is it walnut or something?) also is of a natural tone. Even Lucas's suede jacket is a believable shade if brown.
However, when you look at the Ainsworth re-coloration, notice that to make the stormtrooper clay look red, he pushed the colors into the magenta-crimson range. Now Pemberton's sculpt looks BLUE. Lucas' skintone doesn't look right. The wood stand now looks grey, and Lucas' jacket is darkened to hide the fact. The hue of the image is all wrong. It's been manipulated.
Tsk tsk, Ainsworth.
CSMacLaren
Sr Member
Brian, was the clay produced in England and that was its natural color with no coloring added? I remember digging around in the mud in London as a youth, and easily running into clay that was the same color hue as what you were working on.
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