Game of Thrones

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

That was a really bad*ss scene with Dany! I was assuming that she had found some way to summon her dragons and that the roof was going to get torn off and a dragon would be perched up there.

 

[Fawbish]

Tormund Giantsbane is one of the best characters with the least screen time I've seen. Delightful character.

Jon and Sansa re-unite - awesome. Both grown, both changed. Sansa driving the "what must be done" train is great character development. Jon being unsure of himself due to being resurrected - great character development. Ramsays letter as an homage to the books. Awesome.

Appreciate the badassness of Dany actually coming up with and pulling off her plan. Nice to see it go smoothly as well. One move, one fire proof princess, two beautiful breasts and BOOM - horrendously brutal army at your disposal, who quite literally think you are a god. Cannot WAIT to see how she gets the dragons back into play.

Theons return was a bit disappointing.

 

[The Mad Professor]

Well, being a Wildling, Tormund respects a woman that can take care of herself in combat. Besides, he once screwed a bear. She once fought a bear. It's like they're soulmates.

 

[blakeh1]

...No more treading water, no more introducing major players to the game, no more potential red herrings, just move things along so that it well nice and neatly by the end of book 7 without feeling rushed because he let things get too drawn out for too long.

Yeah with one or two books left, it should be moving toward a conclusion. As long as we don't get a Stephen King type ending where everything just gets wrapped up in one chapter by the hand of god or something

 

[Riceball]

Yeah with one or two books left, it should be moving toward a conclusion. As long as we don't get a Stephen King type ending where everything just gets wrapped up in one chapter by the hand of god or something

I'd hope so, because that's exactly what I'm afraid will happen, he'll take his sweet time getting to the end and he'll wrap everything in the last few chapters or so after writing like there's a book 8 until that point.

 

[Monkey67]

The hand of God or Stephen King isn't what worries me. I'm more concern with the who shot JR ending or rumor of Bran McFly changing / causing the past

 

[Solo4114]

If you look at how Book 3 wrapped up, I think it suggests that he can handle doing a proper ending. Book 3, as I understand it, was originally meant to be the end of the "first trilogy" in the series, after which he'd do some kind of time lapse and age everyone up a few years so that you didn't have ridiculously young children in positions of amazing power (e.g. a 8-year-old Bran as the new greenseer, a 15-year-old Jon as Warden of the North, a 14-year-old Dany as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, etc.). Instead, he did Books 4 and 5 where he told the story at the same point in the timeline, but split them geographically. And now we're supposed to get back to normal with Book 6.

Anyway, based on Book 3, yah, I'd say he knows how to write a suitably thrilling climax, without resorting to literal deus ex machina crap.

- - - Updated - - -

The hand of God or Stephen King isn't what worries me. I'm more concern with the who shot JR ending or rumor of Bran McFly changing / causing the past

That seems...unlikely.

 

[Riceball]

If you look at how Book 3 wrapped up, I think it suggests that he can handle doing a proper ending. Book 3, as I understand it, was originally meant to be the end of the "first trilogy" in the series, after which he'd do some kind of time lapse and age everyone up a few years so that you didn't have ridiculously young children in positions of amazing power (e.g. a 8-year-old Bran as the new greenseer, a 15-year-old Jon as Warden of the North, a 14-year-old Dany as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, etc.). Instead, he did Books 4 and 5 where he told the story at the same point in the timeline, but split them geographically. And now we're supposed to get back to normal with Book 6.

Anyway, based on Book 3, yah, I'd say he knows how to write a suitably thrilling climax, without resorting to literal deus ex machina crap.

But he took that momentum and slowed things down, a lot, in book 4 and book 5 doesn't pick up the pace much more and seems, to me, to drag things out even further by adding yet more players to the Game of Thrones, characters who are possibly Red Herrings. Then there's the whole Dany in Iraq story line, which hasn't been moving nearly as fast as it has in the show, I wouldn't be surprised at all if by the end of book 6 that she's still putzing around in Mereen and no closer to getting to Westeros than when she first met up with Kahl Drogo.

 

[Solo4114]

But he took that momentum and slowed things down, a lot, in book 4 and book 5 doesn't pick up the pace much more and seems, to me, to drag things out even further by adding yet more players to the Game of Thrones, characters who are possibly Red Herrings. Then there's the whole Dany in Iraq story line, which hasn't been moving nearly as fast as it has in the show, I wouldn't be surprised at all if by the end of book 6 that she's still putzing around in Mereen and no closer to getting to Westeros than when she first met up with Kahl Drogo.

Yeah, I don't disagree. But in a sense, the story was starting over...kinda. Books 4 and 5 are essentially two halves of a single book. While I agree that that book doesn't seem to advance things, the reason for that is likely more an editorial one than a writing one...kinda. Basically, I think he did a bunch of stuff in books 4 and 5 that has yet to be paid off. He did a LOT of character exploration, a lot of setup, but didn't really wrap anything up in either books 4 or 5. My sense is that's because with each book he basically "ran out of room." he NEEDED to get the books out to the publisher, and if he'd included the chapters that'd wrap up the storylines, the book would be too long for already really long books. If Book 6 doesn't effectively start by wrapping up Books 4/5, then I think we have real reason to be concerned. I think his real problem was that he had some really cool initial ideas that he then started writing, and only afterwards realized that he'd need to unpack a LOT of other stuff to make them work, which meant digging really deep into things like the Mereenese Knot/Dany-in-Iraq, but then also ran up against a publishing deadline.

In other words, it's not so much that he can't write endings (a la King, who absolutely CANNOT write endings), but rather that he managed his time poorly.

 

[Riceball]

In other words, it's not so much that he can't write endings (a la King, who absolutely CANNOT write endings), but rather that he managed his time poorly.

You can say that again, book 1 of Ice and Fire came out in 1991, it's 2016 and book 6 isn't out yet and likely won't be out until next year, so, yeah, I'd say that he's managed his time pretty poorly. On the other hand, you have Robert Jordan who wrote the Wheel of Time series, started it in 1984, published in 1990, and by the time of his death in 2007, wrote 11 books in the series and extensive notes for the last book for a ghost writer to finish. So in less than it's taken GRR Martin to write 5 books, Robert Jordan wrote more than twice as many and dealt with a terminal illness at the same time. Definitely some serious time management problems.

 

[Solo4114]

Yeah, although I don't think it helped to have the show get optioned and turned into one of the biggest hits on television in years. That raised Martin's profile exponentially, and, I think, also really slowed things down. But I digress.

I've never read any of Jordan's stuff. I was always kind of intimidated at the prospect of getting involved in such a long series of books and was wary of a drop in quality or a crap ending.

 

[Riceball]

Yeah, although I don't think it helped to have the show get optioned and turned into one of the biggest hits on television in years. That raised Martin's profile exponentially, and, I think, also really slowed things down. But I digress.

I've never read any of Jordan's stuff. I was always kind of intimidated at the prospect of getting involved in such a long series of books and was wary of a drop in quality or a crap ending.

If you like Ice and Fire then you'll enjoy Wheel of Time, it's a little more high fantasy than Ice and Fire, but only a little bit. There's still limited magic, and no classic Tolkien demi-humans like Dwarves, and Elves. There's less political intrigue but the various nations are pretty well developed with distinct accents, customs, and clothing styles for each. It is long at 14 books but they're a good read and the only downside is that they leave you wanting more since there isn't much of an epilogue; this is probably due to Jordan focusing on wrapping things up his notes before he died so he probably skipped an aftermath/epilogue as a result.

 

[firesprite]

Yeah, although I don't think it helped to have the show get optioned and turned into one of the biggest hits on television in years. That raised Martin's profile exponentially, and, I think, also really slowed things down. But I digress.

I've never read any of Jordan's stuff. I was always kind of intimidated at the prospect of getting involved in such a long series of books and was wary of a drop in quality or a crap ending.

If you like Ice and Fire then you'll enjoy Wheel of Time, it's a little more high fantasy than Ice and Fire, but only a little bit. There's still limited magic, and no classic Tolkien demi-humans like Dwarves, and Elves. There's less political intrigue but the various nations are pretty well developed with distinct accents, customs, and clothing styles for each. It is long at 14 books but they're a good read and the only downside is that they leave you wanting more since there isn't much of an epilogue; this is probably due to Jordan focusing on wrapping things up his notes before he died so he probably skipped an aftermath/epilogue as a result.

I disagree. I got through about 4 of the Wheel of Time books before I got fed up and put them aside. Every woman is written horribly (unrelentingly catty and only interested in whatever guy she's supposed to be paired up with) and it became obvious very soon that he regretted setting up a "one must die so the other can live" scenario with his hero and the primary villain.

 

[kibosh]

There was an over-reliance on cursing for its own sake rather than to serve the story. (As was usually the case before)

I just watch the first four episode the past two days, and totally agree with this. Don't get me wrong, I swear more than most, and am not offended by it, yet it felt like it cheapened the show a bit.

 

[kibosh]

Jon Snow is dead. His watch is ended.

Jon Snow is dead. His watch is ended.

Care to elaborate on this?

Also, while I know Max von Sydow wouldn't stand for it, I was really kinda hoping he'd be missing an eye. You know, like he's supposed to be because Bittersteel cut it out.

And this? I don't remember any of this.

5. WHEN THE HELL IS GRRM PUBLISHING HIS NEXT BOOK?!?!?! I'm loving that the show has moved past the books. I'm also delighted that the show has become something truly different from the books in terms of its story. Many of the decisions are, I think, the right ones for the TV show, because too much of what happens in Books 4 and 5 are internal monologue and require waaaaaay too much treading water. I expect that the treading water will ultimately pay off pretty well, but it's nice to see the show take a more direct approach. That said, I still look forward to seeing the development of the story in Martin's books, and I wish he'd get the next one out already! Plus, I don't look forward to waiting another five freakin' years for him to wrap up the whole story.

I honestly think we've gotten all the books by GRRM we're going to get.

 

[kibosh]

Put simply, the books and the show are two very similar but totally separate universes. I'd say at this point that the broad stroke of the plot points corresponds or each, and the "end states" also correspond, but the path between a major plot point and an end point may be different, and many of the plot points are changed to "fit" the show. Often with condensing characters and storylines.

Very much like The Walking Dead.

 

[kibosh]

Not to say the show might not go their own way, but...

Spoiler

In the books the three eyed raven is Brynden Rivers (aka Bloodraven ). He was once the Hand of the King for Aerys the 1 rst (not the mad king Aerys II) and Targareyn loyalist during the blackfyre Rebellion and later became a commander of the Night's Watch.

Looks wise he was an albino. He was seen as a sorcerer and a rather devious fellow by many and was said to keep his rule by spies and spells

He ran afowl when he had Aenys Blackfyre beheaded. Despite his argument it was for the good of the realm he was imprisoned and eventually given the chance to go to the wall by Aegon

He accompanied Maester Aemon to the wall and eventually rose to the lord commander position

but ultimately disappeared while ranging beyond the wall

The biggest question I think is what are his ultimate motives

When do we learn this? I don't remember it all, and it doesn't make sense chronologically.

 

[blakeh1]

When do we learn this? I don't remember it all, and it doesn't make sense chronologically.

Some of it is learned through things other people have said/remembered here and there throughout the books, some of it comes from the Dunk and Egg short stories

Spoiler

Once Bran reach the cave with the three-eyed crow (raven in the TV show) he found it was not a bird at all, but a man who says he was once a lord named Brynden. Unlike the TV show he is missing an eye, which a root has grown out of

Also when teaching Bran, after Bran sees his father through the wierwood tree, Brynden tells Bran something along the lines of being haunted by his own ghosts, a brother that he loved (Daeron II Targaryn), a brother that he hated (Aegor Rivers aka Bittersteel), and a woman that he desired (Sheira Seastar). He also says that he knows from experience that you cannot change the past.

Also one of the children (Leaf?) mentioned to Bran about him being old well beyond his years, and referred to him as having a thousand eyes and one. The same thing that used to be said about Brynden Rivers

 

[Riceball]

Care to elaborate on this?

The theory is that Jon Snow is really Jon Targaeryan and is eventually going to realize that and claim his name. So, in that sense Jon Snow is dead, and his watch has ended. But he has now been reborn, so to speak, as Jon Targareryan and as JT he is no longer part of the Nights Watch.

I honestly think we've gotten all the books by GRRM we're going to get.

I don't know about that, he is supposed to be working on book 6 which is (supposedly) mostly done. Whether we'll get book 7 is another matter entirely, we'll probably get more side stories and supplemental books on the world of a Song of Ice and Fire before we see book 7, along with tons of blog entries, a few more Wild Card books with at least one story written by him in each, and not to mention an episode or 2 each season of the show.

 

[blakeh1]

Care to elaborate on this?



And this? I don't remember any of this.



I honestly think we've gotten all the books by GRRM we're going to get.

1. Jon Snow is not necessarily "Jon Snow" anymore. He died which fulfills his vow to the Night's Watch to server until death. Coming back, Melisandre thinks he is the "Prince who was promised". Also he may not actually be a ******* as hinted strongly at with the Tower of Joy backstory

2. Parts of the Brynden Rivers backstory are gotten from various musings, stories etc.. throughout the books and also covered more in the Dunk and Egg tales which take place around 90 years prior to the Fire and Ice series (The Hedge Knight, The Sworn Sword, and The Mystery Knight). Well worth reading

3. I hope not, but with the TV show outpacing as such, there is not as much incentive anymore