ESB Graflex D rings - a discussion

[thd9791]

v312 has quite the eye and brought to our attention some different D rings on the ESB Graflexes.

Could the Ranch saber have been bent this way, and then bent back to what we see today?

Is this evidence of 2 or 3 Graflex bottoms?

Looking through Sym-Cha's pictures and then some older discussion threads what's more interesting to me than the black/silver screws is that
the D-ring seems to change shape quite a lot. I can see at least 4 distinct shapes:

1. Tri-ring:
View attachment 1452536

2. "Crooked Tri-ring"
View attachment 1452537
and maybe even here ??
View attachment 1452538

3. Normal D-ring:
View attachment 1452539

4. "Wide" D-ring (like the one in the Wampa cave scene)
View attachment 1452540

Lets make this its own thread.

My stash of photos:
Dagobah saber




Bespin


Norway




(Click for larger)

I obviously have to update my ESB Graflex folder, I don't have a ton of great res shots!

 

[thd9791]

Remember this D ring is so old looking it could also be original to ESB filming

 

[v312]

It is possibly that they had few backup bottoms maybe in case the t-tracks were falling off.

In Norway looks like the earliest production photos show the tri-ring. But we also have a D-ring when Luke is attacked by the Wampa monster. When he gets out of the crashed A-wing the ring looks to be what I call "crooked tri-ring" that is later seen on Dagobah (but could be the tri-ring here as well). When he walks in the snow towards the rendezvous point it is again the tri-ring.

It also appears in some shots where Luke poses in some fake-looking ice cave so I assume this is later in the studios

On Dagobah when Luke lands with the red pilot suit it is the "crooked tri-ring" and the bent t-track and little screws as seen later on the ranch saber (although I can't make out any of these details in the movie, just in the various pictures floating around). Then when he is wearing the gray suit it is a D-ring, except when he puts his belt to enter the cave - there it is again the "crooked tri-ring".

Lastly on Bespin (and promo pictures where the saber looks identical to the one in Bespin) it is only a D-ring (although sometimes it looks little different in shape and/or size, but it could be just the position of the saber and camera angle/distance etc.)

I don't know what's the actual chronology of shooting the different scenes, but it kind of looks from the sequences that at least some of these rings existed at the same time on separate bottoms and they occasionally used one or the other.

That said it is really hard for me to spot any difference other than the shape of the d-ring. They all seem to have the same chrome kobold clip and it is offset exactly the same way with the t-track (including the ranch saber) on every picture. I somehow really doubt if they made multiple bottoms, the clip and the track will end up (mis)aligned exactly the same way as the original "idealized" design seems to be that the control box, the t-track and the clip sit on the same line.

The clamp also appears to be the same in all close-up shots - there's a distinctive scratch on the 5th and partially 6th pin on the edge connector card and then corrosion on the slot where the little screw sits originally, and finally the corrosion on both sides of the lever (the pattern also looks really close to the corrosion on the ranch saber lever)

 

[thd9791]

I almost wonder if these were experiments to get the saber to swing less.

 

[thd9791]

HOLD ON I just saw the SRS Lever matches the lever from the Bespin Hallway. The cards don't match, nor do the upper Gx half.

 

[v312]

SRS = ranch saber, right? The lever also seems to match here

and on Bespin closeup of the saber on the ground.

The card does not match on the ranch saber, but it is also possible that it is flipped with the back side now on top.

What are the reference points that you have found for the top that don't match?

 

[thd9791]

So, I still can't find those two blemishes on the Bespin Hallway picture you posted above. There are 2 rist spots on the lever side of the clamp, and I don't see them here.

There is also a significant dot on the upper near the clamp that I haven't seen anywhere else. That being said... I almost see one on the carbon chamber floor picture you posted.

 

[thd9791]

I went back to check, I do have reference I can't share that has scratches on the upper, a spot on the bulb ring (card side) and a decent spot on the clamp that aren't on the SRS today.

I don't know if these are able to be buffed out or something

BUT there's the dot.

 

[Halliwax]

What’s this trouble making tom up to now…

sorry I’ve been absent, I’m just completely OUTATIME

 

[thd9791]

Guys this might be the same Kobold and D ring. Maybe this is the bottom can that was puttied up for ROTJ

 

[Captain Dunsel]

Guys this might be the same Kobold and D ring. Maybe this is the bottom can that was puttied up for ROTJ
View attachment 1503446View attachment 1503447View attachment 1503448

Well, the rivets are different..they appear to be a larger size (and are, therefore, spaced closer together) on the Wampa saber.

I suppose they could have “re-popped” the Kobold clip, with smaller rivets, after filming ESB.

 

[Halliwax]

never really thought of this until now... but it looks like a piece of metal they roughly cut and put under the kobold like roys end cap.. and they roughly painted it

i clearly can see your highlighted marks in all those photos

im just amazed at how rough that lip is on the vader stunt...

 

[thd9791]

Yea I literally see the scratch rings of the old rivets around the new ones!

I can actually also see a perfect circle amidst all the putty. Like there is a gender washer around the center rivet and the rest is that rough cut disc. Hard to tell if the original rim is there... I'm assuming it's a graflex bottom but who knows

 

[thd9791]

Oh my God theres a vertical scratch dead center on the D ring. We can only see the part facing the camera on the vader stunt and that is visible on the Wampa too

 

[v312]

Also the corner where the chrome peeled off seems to match as well as the tool marks around the rivets

the d-ring also looks really similar

 

[thd9791]

Love it. Good eye! I missed that peeled corner. I also see damage in the left inside corner of the D ring

For those reading, one of the wampa shots is flipped on screen

 

[thd9791]

WAIT is the bottom tube bigger on the vader stunt? The kobold is no where near the rim, and we know it at least almost touches one of the graflex edges.

 

[dcarty]

never really thought of this until now... but it looks like a piece of metal they roughly cut and put under the kobold like roys end cap.. and they roughly painted it

i clearly can see your highlighted marks in all those photos

im just amazed at how rough that lip is on the vader stunt...

Agreed, that's how I built mine up. I'm guessing they did it to strengthen the surface to hold the rivets.

 

[eethan]

Also the corner where the chrome peeled off seems to match as well as the tool marks around the rivets
View attachment 1503467
the d-ring also looks really similar

for me, a definite "proof" is the larger round marks around the smaller rivets from the Vader stunt, it definitelly seems like bigger rivet were attached there at some point, no reason to have those marks on the kobold for another reason.
cool stuff!

 

[thd9791]

I wanted to double check to see if this wasn't a Graflex tube - meaning they ripped the D ring off and put it on another bottom. at least I tried to line up the arcs on both ends of the kobold on the Wampa saber (ignore the rest of the circle) - i'm not great with PS - Does the Vader saber look like there is more space at each end of the Kobold?