ESB Graflex D rings - a discussion

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v312

Well-Known Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
The top of that Vader stunt is a Graflex for sure, right ? If you think the bottom has wider diameter then maybe check the reference pictures for a little step where the two parts meet at the middle.
 

Diego86

Active Member
Really a lot of similar signs.. Too many to be just a coincidence! Also the particular deformation of the d-ring in my opinion is further proof..


1820B841-3AAA-4202-BEC2-D583FE1E54CD.jpeg
 

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thd9791

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Here's a comparison of the MoM end and my vintage Linhof clip on a New York Folmer tube. Controlling for tube size then lining up the raised sections of the clip this is what I get:

View attachment 1503857
So, the Kobold is most likely the same size on both sabers. If you're getting a difference in Kobold when controlling for tube size, does that mean the tube sizes are actually different?
 

Drew Baker

Sr Member
So, the Kobold is most likely the same size on both sabers. If you're getting a difference in Kobold when controlling for tube size, does that mean the tube sizes are actually different?

The purple measurement arrows are the same for each side of the image.

With the tubes sizes matched I'm seeing the Kobold widths are the same and the raised sections are the same length. The difference I'm seeing in the Kobolds is that the lower section looks shorter on the MoM. Possibly shortened since the cave shot? It's easy for me to think the corners are closer to the D-ring dings on the MoM than they are on the cave shot.
 

thd9791

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
The purple measurement arrows are the same for each side of the image.

With the tubes sizes matched I'm seeing the Kobold widths are the same and the raised sections are the same length. The difference I'm seeing in the Kobolds is that the lower section looks shorter on the MoM. Possibly shortened since the cave shot? It's easy for me to think the corners are closer to the D-ring dings on the MoM than they are on the cave shot.
Yea, let me clarify, I'm sorry. We shouldn't be matching the diameter of the tube, but the kobold measurements instead. I don't think there's any chance the Kobold clip was modified. Match the Kobolds and I think we'll see the tubes are different diameters
 

Drew Baker

Sr Member
Yea, let me clarify, I'm sorry. We shouldn't be matching the diameter of the tube, but the kobold measurements instead. I don't think there's any chance the Kobold clip was modified. Match the Kobolds and I think we'll see the tubes are different diameters
Let me clarify: everything else matches. The one thing that doesn't line up is the lengths of the Kobolds, as the lower (un-drilled) section of the MoM is shorter than the lower section on my clip. That is the only thing that doesn't match in my comparison of the two photos.

If the tubes weren't the same size then matching them would make the other measurements of the Kobolds off -- the widths would not be the same and the lengths of the raised (drilled) portions would not be the same. The scale would be wrong, and we could measure that proportion to see what tube size we should be looking for. But that is not what I'm seeing here. I matched the tube sizes and the Kobold measurements all lined up, except for the lengths of the lower sections.

Maybe the MoM/Cave Kobold wasn't shortened between shots, but this comparison would indicate that, on the MoM saber at least, it is shorter than my vintage clips.
 

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Drew Baker

Sr Member
Guys this might be the same Kobold and D ring. Maybe this is the bottom can that was puttied up for ROTJ

cave-mom.jpg


This is really exciting, Tom. Any chance we know how the holes in the MoM's bottom can line up with the Kobold well enough to figure out whether they'd line up with the grips on the cave stunt?
 

thd9791

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Let me give that some more inspection.

The kobold thing might be an artifact from photography - the kobold today is not exposed brass on the end, but still plated *shrug*

The other thing glaring me in the face is that there isn't a "lip" on the Vader Stunt endcap. There's a small one but barely noticeable
 

Drew Baker

Sr Member
hey, here is a photo I posted a few years back comparing two kobold clips, those cannot be trusted, they differ often like with all vintage stuff:

Nice. Looks like the widths are probably going to be pretty consistent -- they couldn't vary too far without losing the ability to hold the reflector, right?

Would they have been extruded, then cut to length and finished? I'm afraid my knowledge of manufacturing techniques is abysmal.
 

eethan

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Nice. Looks like the widths are probably going to be pretty consistent -- they couldn't vary too far without losing the ability to hold the reflector, right?

Would they have been extruded, then cut to length and finished? I'm afraid my knowledge of manufacturing techniques is abysmal.
I think the less consistent feature on those is "the step", the bottom part on my photos. they were probably done last and sometimes a bit by hand as can be seen on some, like if it was grinded or something.
another example of the different look they can have:
DSC01733.JPG
 

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Halliwax

Legendary Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
100% agree, every kobold i have handled doesn't exactly match up

ive seen one that was wicked small... almost to the point where i think it was a mistake when making it..
 

thd9791

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
This is all really useful! Not to be a downer but we have multiple marks matching these two kobold pieces, I was never questioning that part, I thought it would be a good reference point to determine if the bottom tube changed from esb to jedi
 

eethan

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
This is all really useful! Not to be a downer but we have multiple marks matching these two kobold pieces, I was never questioning that part, I thought it would be a good reference point to determine if the bottom tube changed from esb to jedi
Hey Tom, yes I completelly understand what you mean, my point was to say that we couldn't really base our comparison with any random kobold clip we have at home as they might not be the same size as the one used on the ESB saber :)

that discussion and find is super interesting however! pretty cool to see that both clips and D ring are most probably the same and that possibly the Vader stunt is the ESB hero converted! that would be quite cool!
In my mind though, what you see with the tube being maybe larger is just due to the fact that they used a weirdly cut disk partially hidding the lip on the bottom tube of the stunt and making it seem like the tube is not the same size. I can obviously be wrong and biased by the fact I assume it would be normal they use a graflex tube, hence why the research and tests are cool :)
 

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