Episode 9 lightsaber reveal???

[Captain Dunsel]

It’s like, that lightsaber, that’s supposed to be in Episode 9... it’s like what was said earlier about it. I totally agree about that. I mean, I get it too. You know? I mean, sure.

 

[Psab keel]

It will be a repaired graflex. She will have repaired it off screen between episodes so they don't have to use up screen time explaining it.

All the lore, ancillary material and early drafts or concept art means nothing. All that matters is the final cut of the film. I don't care what Lucas or Arndt wrote or conceptualized or even what JJ or Kasdan wrote. What we see on screen is canon. Those ideas are interesting in and of themselves but are irrelevant in the end so citing them constantly to defend your position to my mind means your argument borders on theorizing vs taking the film at face value. It's the difference between arguing someone's intentions vs. their actions.

Often my position is what could have been vs. what we are presented with to show how it could have been done better. The other point I tend to stress is just because we got one version of the story doesn't mean that it was the ONLY way the story could have been told. The finished film is the result of lots of creative choices and I feel many of those choices were bad ones, not based on my opinions, but on basic rules of fiction and mythology. Sure those rules can be bent to a degree but given that the story is structured on those rules, they have be obeyed otherwise the story falls apart.

 

[AJTaliesen]

I think over the years people have made WAAAAAAY too much out of Vaders one line about how Luke made himself a new lightsaber.

Given the tech of these movies and the MANY variations on the theme we've seen, in my mind, it's not an impossible feat. Without the force it's a terrible weapon so they aren't used by non Jedi, but it was a silly idea from the start to make building it some really Herculean feat.

If we can accept that no one remembers the droids, then we can probably accept that maybe Vader was just making conversation and didn't put as much of a pause between sentences as he might have.

Maybe lightsabers DON'T have to be that hard to make in this universe?

 

[Psab keel]

Well they threw out the idea of it being a Jedi only weapon by having General Grevious fight with it and then Finn so while I don't disagree with you it does show how malleable writers tend to be with the rules they set up in this universe.

You have to wonder if the confines that they used to establish this world are so restrictive that it makes it difficult to branch out from the main story without betraying said rules.

 

[Bigdaddy]

George Lucas seems like a nice person but he's far from genius status as a film maker. His whole career was built on the success of the OT.
It's not as though the PT NEEDED to be made, I think George realized SW was the best thing he ever made and returned to the well he knew audiences would drink from. The biggest reason he made the PT is the same as the ONLY reason the ST got made...cash, copious amounts of it.
There's nothing wrong with making money but if it's your driving motivation as a creator (rather than telling a cohesive story) then it's hard to swallow the "godhood" status so many fans seem to bestow on him.
FWIW, that graflex is still somewhere in cloud city according to the OT. I know that's not "canon" but I've always found applying that religious connotation to fiction pretty silly.

 

[sztriki]

Question, cam this thread not be merged to the Star Wars Episode IX thread? The two parallel discussions are basically the same.

 

[Bigdaddy]

Question, cam this thread not be merged to the Star Wars Episode IX thread? The two parallel discussions are basically the same.

 

[sztriki]

View attachment 1006132

Thought it was a mod-only power...?

 

[Joek3rr]

Well they threw out the idea of it being a Jedi only weapon by having General Grevious fight with it and then Finn so while I don't disagree with you it does show how malleable writers tend to be with the rules they set up in this universe.

You have to wonder if the confines that they used to establish this world are so restrictive that it makes it difficult to branch out from the main story without betraying said rules.

Well Luke built his and he wasn't even a Jedi yet.

Oh and don't forget about Pre Vizsla.

 

[Psab keel]

Luke was a Jedi in training. That's not the same as if Grevous had built his.

I was talking more about the use of a lightsaber than its construction.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

I don't think it takes a jedi to build a lightsaber only that it is part of their training to construct their own. I think the limiting factor is obtaining a kyber crystal. Not impossible but I would say that their sources have been very controlled. First by the Jedi, then by the Empire.

I also agree that the lightsaber is a melee weapon that can be used by anyone, but other than a Jedi, or someone with enhanced reflexes, the lightsaber is not a practical choice of weapons. Even for someone like Finn who has melee training, he got his butt kicked twice when using a lightsaber. It would have been worse if he went against someone using a blaster because he would not have the skill to deflect the bolts.

 

[Psab keel]

I always presumed that you had to have some connection to the Force to be able to build a working lightsaber and that it was a rite of passage to build your own. Vader's comment to Luke in Jedi suggests that idea. Not only that but if it's a weapon that can be wielded by anyone then why isn't every character fighting with one? It can do more damage than just about any other weapon in this universe.

I know originally Lucas wanted everyone to carry them/ use them but abandoned that idea in order to make the Jedi and their signature weapon distinct from the other characters.

I suppose it would be a more sound argument to question who is capable of using the Force and whether it's inherited vs. it being a religion where you simply have to believe in it to be able to tap into it?

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

I always presumed that you had to have some connection to the Force to be able to build a working lightsaber and that it was a rite of passage to build your own. Vader's comment to Luke in Jedi suggests that idea. Not only that but if it's a weapon that can be wielded by anyone then why isn't every character fighting with one? It can do more damage than just about any other weapon in this universe.

I know originally Lucas wanted everyone to carry them/ use them but abandoned that idea in order to make the Jedi and their signature weapon distinct from the other characters.

I suppose it would be a more sound argument to question who is capable of using the Force and whether it's inherited vs. it being a religion where you simply have to believe in it to be able to tap into it?

If you are posting in response to my remarks, I kind of addressed all of that in my previous post. Including a link to StarWars.com that talks about the Jedi and their bonding with their crystal. I also was supporting your argument about why only Jedi (for the most part) seem to use them. In short, anyone can use one. Just like a scalpel. Anyone can pick one up and cut with it. But a training surgeon is the one who is going to be able to do fantastic things with it.

Also, unless I am missing another quote, Vader said:

I see you have constructed a new lightsaber. Your skills are complete.

He did not say that constructing a lightsaber can only be done by a Jedi. Nor did he say that making a lightsaber is the last thing you do in Jedi training.

I feel it is a vague statement but it is a statement some may have decided long ago that it meant something particular. He's probably just remarking what he knows of Luke's skills from his encounter at Cloud City. He probably also noticed Luke was using his old lightsaber (meaning he did not build it). So seeing a new lightsaber he assumes he has completed final tasks. AKA... he assumes he has earned enough credit hours to walk at the graduation ceremony.... a very, very, very lonely graduation ceremony.

 

[sztriki]

I feel it is a vague statement but it is a statement some may have decided long ago that it meant something particular. He's probably just remarking what he knows of Luke's skills from his encounter at Cloud City. He probably also noticed Luke was using his old lightsaber (meaning he did not build it). So seeing a new lightsaber he assumes he has completed final tasks. AKA... he assumes he has earned enough credit hours to walk at the graduation ceremony.... a very, very, very lonely graduation ceremony.

I heard so many interpretations of those lines over the years...I wish I had a burger for each. I think the truth is simpler, the lightsaber was meant to be blue and this was the bulletproof (albeit as subtle as a battalion of tanks) way of telling the audience that this is a different one.

 

[Psab keel]

Hahaha. Mara Jade's Father

That would be the saddest graduation ever. lol. Tuition costs so much! Luke only lost a handful but Anakin paid an arm and both legs!

I agree with you about the saber being wielded by Jedi in a proficient manner, though I think Grevious being able to use four against Kenobi (while it looked cool) was a creative choice that conflicted with the idea of only Jedi being able to use it effectively. Sure Kenobi sliced off his hands, but being able to swing that many without killing yourself is pretty impressive.

Perhaps it is possible for a non Jedi to construct a lightsaber but to me it takes away from the weapon. The fact that it's supposed to be the signature weapon of the Jedi and a trained Force user brandishing one just is a better story idea in my opinion, along with the idea that one has to be attuned to the Force to successfully build one.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

I heard so many interpretations of those lines over the years...I wish I had a burger for each. I think the truth is simpler, the lightsaber was meant to be blue and this was the bulletproof (albeit as subtle as a battalion of tanks) way of telling the audience that this is a different one.

Honestly I don't think that the director cared whether or not the audience understood that the lightsaber was different. We hear on the board tend to but more importance on the props than needed. If they really cared so much, they would have left in the construction scene at the beginning. But... I think you are right about the line having an important message to the audience. The full line is:

I see you have constructed a new lightsaber. Your skills are complete. Indeed you are powerful, as the Emperor has foreseen.

IMHO, the point of the lightsaber comment was to lead to the last part of the comment that lets us know that both Vader and the Emperor knew he was powerful and not some brash youngster looking for a fight. This way it reminds us that Emperor knows how Luke could be valuable to his reign and still wants to turn him and not just kill him.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

...though I think Grevious being able to use four against Kenobi (while it looked cool) was a creative choice that conflicted with the idea of only Jedi being able to use it effectively. Sure Kenobi sliced off his hands, but being able to swing that many without killing yourself is pretty impressive.

The way I see it, it was Grevious's cybernetics that allowed him utilize the lightsabers in a way that made him a threat. His reflexes and movements were enhanced. I'd say his ability to rotate the lightsabers was more his precise cybernetic programming/abilities rather than a skill through training although he most likely trained as well. But IMHO, if he did not have the cybernetics, he would have been killed in lightsaber combat during his first attempt.

Even so... I don't believe Grevious or even a skilled warrior like Sabine (Darksaber) can still utilize a lightsaber the same way a jedi can. The jedi utilize their ability to see into the future in order to quickly react (based on Qui Gon's comments about podracing) along with that and their extensive training and acquired skill. No non jedi would be able to utilize lightsabers the same way such as blocking and deflecting laser bolts. I would even theorize that the jedi using force abilities can help improve the cutting force of their blade. Like when Qui was cutting through the blast doors at the beginning of The Phantom Menace. I think a lot of that damage was not just the power of the lightsaber but also enhanced by his use of the force.

 

[sztriki]

Honestly I don't think that the director cared whether or not the audience understood that the lightsaber was different. We hear on the board tend to but more importance on the props than needed. If they really cared so much, they would have left in the construction scene at the beginning.

Exactly my point. Had it been a blue saber most people would not have recognized it as a v2 instead of the Graflex so somebody had to tell them. They had to include Yoda just to spell it out to people that Vader is indeed Luke’s father. The construction scene was probably removed for pacing purposes, while adding an extra line or two didn’t change much. The close-up shot on the hero was done by a crew member putting on gloves and the chestbox.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Exactly my point. Had it been a blue saber most people would not have recognized it as a v2 instead of the Graflex so somebody had to tell them. They had to include Yoda just to spell it out to people that Vader is indeed Luke’s father. The construction scene was probably removed for pacing purposes, while adding an extra line or two didn’t change much. The close-up shot on the hero was done by a crew member putting on gloves and the chestbox.

You completely missed my point.

 

[sztriki]

You completely missed my point.

No I didn't you're just trying to explain something in-universe and finding out the main meaning of a line while I'm saying it was there for practical filmmaking reasons, that's it. I'm not diminishing your view on it, you're entitled to your interpretation, I'm just saying that there's probably a very pragmatic reason to it and the filmmakers hadn't put half as much thought to it as most fans have.