Axanar - Crowdfunded 'Star Trek' Movie Draws Lawsuit from Paramount, CBS

[asalaw]

Nope.

Nope.

Not gonna happen.

I couldn't agree more, and I've only clipped the above post for brevity. I've been on many union shows, and many non-union ones, and I've had similar experiences both ways. It's worth noting that on commercials (and I worked on... no idea how many, doing... everything) things went very well regardless of unionism. That's because the same people worked both union and non-union jobs, and the unions tended to look the other way, because you still have to pay the bills when there's no union work around. And if Europeans came to town, they always paid straight-up cash. It's amazing the level of professionalism you can get from a wad of bills.

 

[Solo4114]

I'm not saying a superior fan-film has the right to challenge the official item. But there will probably come a time when a studio might WANT TO embrace a superior fan-film.

Studios are huge corporations. They don't get butthurt like individual filmmakers when somebody else does their job better. (The most recent Fantastic-4 movie bombed and the studio was already soliciting advice about what to do with the franchise.) The studios won't want to give an inch when it comes to financial profit. But at some point a studio might be looking at more financial profit from embracing a fan-film version than squashing it. What then?


I repeat, it won't be Axanar.

It won't be any fan-film that we've seen so far.

It may not be involving any currently active franchise we know of.

But sooner or later I think it will happen.

Unions, schmunions.

The situation could still come to pass where genuine amateurs make something good enough that a studio wants to mess with it.



Imagine if the old 1990s Antonio Banderas Desperado flicks had been a struggling comic book franchise instead of a movie series. Some studio had the rights to it but they had only made 1 or 2 crappy forgettable movies years ago.

Meanwhile a young nobody like Robert Rodriguez is a huge fan of the Desperado comics. He makes El Mariachi for like $20,000 and it's better than anything the IP owner had cooking. Get my drift?


What happens then? El Mariachi is accumulating a zillion hits on Youtube (or however else you can distribute something online free now). Fans at the conventions are loving it, and it's starting to be seen by non-fans.

Would the studio just squash the movie on principle anyway? It has awakened their dormant franchise & given them a sequel setup on a silver platter. They could support/promote the movie and throw a hundred million bucks at Rodriguez to do another one. Easy money for the studio. The franchise makes another zero dollars for the studio this year if they don't do it. And it costs the studio money & embarrassment if they fight against Rodriguez.


Something like this could happen. How will the studios react when it does?

I think you are right in some respects, but focused in the wrong areas.


Fan films will never be accepted by studios no matter how awesome they are, no matter how good they look. There are simply too many reasons not to do that for the studios, and not enough reasons for them to do it. There are ample legal avenues available for studios to kill those projects that really show promise, and the ones that aren't competition can be ignored. There's just no reason to hire people on. The notion of, like, a "talent scout" watching some fan film and saying "We gotta hire these guys!!" is fantasy. Generally speaking, you go through established channels to get into the business. OR you personally befriend someone who gets into/is in a position to open a door for you.

The scenarios you describe all pretty much end the same way: they shut down and sued into oblivion. That's the purpose of copyright law: to prevent people from making unauthorized copies.



Now, all that said, I DO think that you'll see more popularity for indie/lower budget films that don't have to rely on major studio distribution to reach a larger audience. Netflix and some of the other subscription services are one avenue, but you also can "self distribute" on Youtube and such (although commercializing that is tougher). There've been a few films in recent years that, I think, were successful in doing smaller-scale advertising on Youtube and then inking deals with distro outlets like Netflix. Turbo Kid, for example (which is great, by the way). Also Knights of Badassdom. As far as I know, neither film had anything to do with a major studio. And yet, both managed to make it to the public's eye through Netflix.


That, I think, is how you see real change happening in the industry. The giant studios will continue to play to their strengths and produce giant spectacles because they're basically the only ones who can. But the smaller-scale stuff need not go through them anymore, and there's avenues for fans to get other original content elsewhere to satisfy their cravings. Will it be the "official" product they hope for? Nah, probably not. But they can get the kind of genre entertainment and "definitely not from a major studio" angle that they want.

 

[asalaw]

I DO think that you'll see more popularity for indie/lower budget films that don't have to rely on major studio distribution to reach a larger audience. Netflix and some of the other subscription services are one avenue, but you also can "self distribute" on Youtube and such (although commercializing that is tougher). There've been a few films in recent years that, I think, were successful in doing smaller-scale advertising on Youtube and then inking deals with distro outlets like Netflix. Turbo Kid, for example (which is great, by the way). Also Knights of Badassdom. As far as I know, neither film had anything to do with a major studio. And yet, both managed to make it to the public's eye through Netflix.


That, I think, is how you see real change happening in the industry. The giant studios will continue to play to their strengths and produce giant spectacles because they're basically the only ones who can. But the smaller-scale stuff need not go through them anymore, and there's avenues for fans to get other original content elsewhere to satisfy their cravings. Will it be the "official" product they hope for? Nah, probably not. But they can get the kind of genre entertainment and "definitely not from a major studio" angle that they want.

It's worth mentioning that Knights of Badassdom was excruciatingly funny, and had Peter Dinklage, Summer Glau, and Ryan Kwanten. That certainly had a lot to do with their getting distribution.

But you're right -- filmmaking and distribution have been largely democratized thanks to better and cheaper digital tools, social media, and internet exhibition platforms. Once 4K becomes as mainstream as high def, it may even be commonplace for original micro-budget films to play to very large rooms on the art house cinema circuit, for instance. Or the con circuit. What that means is that, as you say, studios will be free to pay more attention to their tentpoles and less to their rom-com and coming-of-age-with-puppies stuff. And we see that already happening.

The tough part for the smaller films, though, is and has always been marketing. The internet and social media can give you a big leg up on that, but there's so much noise you still have to do something extra to rise above it and get noticed. And marketing people who really know what they're doing don't come cheap. So there's that.

 

[Solo4114]

It's worth mentioning that Knights of Badassdom was excruciatingly funny, and had Peter Dinklage, Summer Glau, and Ryan Kwanten. That certainly had a lot to do with their getting distribution.

But you're right -- filmmaking and distribution have been largely democratized thanks to better and cheaper digital tools, social media, and internet exhibition platforms. Once 4K becomes as mainstream as high def, it may even be commonplace for original micro-budget films to play to very large rooms on the art house cinema circuit, for instance. Or the con circuit. What that means is that, as you say, studios will be free to pay more attention to their tentpoles and less to their rom-com and coming-of-age-with-puppies stuff. And we see that already happening.

The tough part for the smaller films, though, is and has always been marketing. The internet and social media can give you a big leg up on that, but there's so much noise you still have to do something extra to rise above it and get noticed. And marketing people who really know what they're doing don't come cheap. So there's that.

Right, but I also see niche productions targeting niche markets, and making their money on their profit margins, rather than in absolute dollars.

I mean, let's not forget that Roger Corman is probably one of the most successful men in Hollywood, and the guy made a career out of producing, basically, schlock. But it was profitable schlock, and that's the key.

Also, I should note that, while it's probably safer to get independent backing from a few financing sources, the concept of fan-driven productions via things like kickstarter isn't an inherently bad thing (in spite of what happened here), assuming you have the rights to make the film in the first place.

The other aspect about the success of these films and their ability to get to market, I think, will tie into a lot of the digital distribution platforms. In addition to broadening access just to...well...anyone in the first place, there's also the benefit of the platforms' functionality to recommend other titles based on what you watched/liked. For example, I found out about Unicorn City because I watched (or ran a search for -- I can't remember which) Knights of Badassdom. Somewhat similar setting, but a completely different premise.


Anyway, bottom line, I don't think fans need worry about whether they'll be able to see stuff that isn't the big-studio-driven stuff....provided that they aren't looking for material that the big studios own and to which they hold the exclusive rights. Fan films about established, studio-owned IP are still in the same legal crosshairs as before, regardless of the democratization of development and distro methods, but original creations by fans of genres? The much-wished-for indie explosion? That's coming. May have even started already.

 

[asalaw]

Right, but I also see niche productions targeting niche markets, and making their money on their profit margins, rather than in absolute dollars.

I mean, let's not forget that Roger Corman is probably one of the most successful men in Hollywood, and the guy made a career out of producing, basically, schlock. But it was profitable schlock, and that's the key.

Also, I should note that, while it's probably safer to get independent backing from a few financing sources, the concept of fan-driven productions via things like kickstarter isn't an inherently bad thing (in spite of what happened here), assuming you have the rights to make the film in the first place.

The other aspect about the success of these films and their ability to get to market, I think, will tie into a lot of the digital distribution platforms. In addition to broadening access just to...well...anyone in the first place, there's also the benefit of the platforms' functionality to recommend other titles based on what you watched/liked. For example, I found out about Unicorn City because I watched (or ran a search for -- I can't remember which) Knights of Badassdom. Somewhat similar setting, but a completely different premise.


Anyway, bottom line, I don't think fans need worry about whether they'll be able to see stuff that isn't the big-studio-driven stuff....provided that they aren't looking for material that the big studios own and to which they hold the exclusive rights. Fan films about established, studio-owned IP are still in the same legal crosshairs as before, regardless of the democratization of development and distro methods, but original creations by fans of genres? The much-wished-for indie explosion? That's coming. May have even started already.

Yup. Hell, we're living in a time when you can use a standard DSLR for your regular footage (and they're getting pretty cheap on eBay), and a frakkin' iPhone to get pro-level slow motion. In the old days, you needed to rent a Panastar to get 120 fps. Now, just put your phone call on hold, point, and shoot. I mostly saw the Panastars come out when we were blowing stuff up.

iMovie is free with every Mac, and Blender (a very capable editor/FX platform in its own right) is free on every platform. Even the Adobe Creative Cloud suite is $49.99/month, which a lot of people can swing if they really want to. I've been using it for two years. Photoshop, Illustrator, Premiere Pro, Audition, After Effects, and... everything else they make. Not much attention gets paid to the industry move to software-as-a-service, but trust me, it's another democratizing force. No way could I swing $everal thou$and every few years to buy this stuff and upgrade; but $50/month, and I'm using sweet, sweet Adobe goodness.

If you can market your Kickstarter/Indiegogo effectively, you can make a full-blown live-action feature. If you can network and find good talent, you can ask some really skilled people to join you. If you know how to care about others and understand how to deal with talented people, they might actually agree. (That last part does in quite a lot of projects.)

But let's all say it again: we're talking about original fan-made IP. So get the hell out there and write your own adventures. There's a dozen good (FREE) screenwriting apps out there. What are you waiting for?

[Aw, hell, I forgot. You really want to make a massive epic? I got one word for you: Machinima.]

 

[ghostryder]

http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...xanar-lawsuit-update-20160617-snap-story.html

 

[Apollo]

J.J. and Lin probably still can't sit down after they were spanked by Paramount Legal! :lol

http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...xanar-lawsuit-update-20160617-snap-story.html

 

[asalaw]

J.J. and Lin probably still can't sit down after they were spanked by Paramount Legal! :lol

I have a hunch that Lin really did have such a conversation, but the Para execs he talked to were just shining him on, and he and JJ were somehow naive enough to believe it and repeat it publicly. Yes, it seems improbable that someone of JJ's age and experience could be so credulous, but stranger things have happened. Chamberlain was no spring chicken when Hitler just told him what he wanted to hear. Not saying it's the same situation, just that there's no fool like a middle-aged fool.

 

[Apollo]

Probably believing their own hype! :unsure


"I know you middle age same song different page, I know what you're going through, made the same mistakes as you, all you want is some hope and a shoulder to cry on"

that there's no fool like a middle-aged fool.

 

[Treadwell]

The legal dept. is never going to be taking orders or even suggestions from producers and directors, not gonna happen.

 

[batguy]

The financial department might, though. And they can go toe-to-toe with the legal department.

 

[asalaw]

Nobody with an ounce of brains "goes toe-to-toe" with their own legal department. It's not some intra-corporate pissing contest. People and companies who "go toe-to-toe" with their lawyers tend to pay very serious consequences. "Go toe-to-toe" with your doctor about your cancer diagnosis. Let me know how that works out. (Come to think of it, that's exactly what Steve Jobs did, and he's alive and we-- oh wait, he's dead.)

On the other hand, stupid clients mean much higher fees because the deeper the hole they dig themselves into, the longer it takes to dig them out (if that's even possible), so I'm not complaining. Job security, you know.

 

[batguy]

Nobody with an ounce of brains "goes toe-to-toe" with their own legal department. It's not some intra-corporate pissing contest. People and companies who "go toe-to-toe" with their lawyers tend to pay very serious consequences.

Tell that to Volkswagen - rigging emissions tests

Or Disney & several other big studios: http://www.theguardian.com/media/20...dios-of-illegally-restricting-access-to-films

Etc. Big corporations blatantly break laws all the time.




It's not like a studio that embraces a fan-film is intentionally breaking a big Federal law just by doing that. The govt prosecutor isn't going to leap out of his chair in fury, run out to assemble his team of Untouchables, and haul the studio into court for billions.

We're talking about something much more gray-area, and most of the risk is in future implications.

 

[Solo4114]

In most cases, that's not "going toe-to-toe" with legal or the compliance dept. It's usually that they KNOW the answer they're gonna get from legal/compliance and they simply hide the fact to avoid dealing with legal. I have clients who do this. We work with their in-house compliance dept., and the sales team is CONSTANTLY trying to push the envelope or does things without permission or against internal policy, and it's mostly because of the culture of the place.

But the bottom line is that, in this case, legal is pretty much running the show. They have to listen to the higher ups who tell them what to do, but unless one of THOSE people says "Settle this now," it's not gonna happen.

As I've said, there's just no incentive for Para/CBS to settle this. They have a solid case. Their only incentive is saving a few bucks in legal fees, but if they can actually get legal fees as damages, that incentive goes away. I honestly think the "bad PR" angle is extremely weak, because fan films are generally pretty much the definition of "niche."

 

[batguy]

It's probably true that the bad PR angle isn't a major issue for the Axanar case. The only people that would be seriously bothered by a studio stomping a fan-film would be diehard fans. But that crowd will support the franchise anyway.

 

[asalaw]

In most cases, that's not "going toe-to-toe" with legal or the compliance dept. It's usually that they KNOW the answer they're gonna get from legal/compliance and they simply hide the fact to avoid dealing with legal. I have clients who do this. We work with their in-house compliance dept., and the sales team is CONSTANTLY trying to push the envelope or does things without permission or against internal policy, and it's mostly because of the culture of the place.

If I had a penny for every email I read between corporate execs, directors, and managers who don't even know if they should tell legal about what they're doing... or are outright hiding the ball from legal...

I worked on one case where a VP in the London office of a major multinational told his friends via email not to buy his company's stock that week, because they were about to take a financial hit. If you're wondering, yes -- insider trading is illegal in England, too. I was gobsmacked, because this was one of my earliest cases, but I've since seen plenty of other examples of company culture run amok despite the compliance/legal team's best efforts. The world is full of stupid clients. That's why it's also full of smart lawyers.

I'd hate to be corporate counsel and find out my bosses were raiding the till or outright killing people. Not an enviable position. But it happens.

 

[Solo4114]

It's probably true that the bad PR angle isn't a major issue for the Axanar case. The only people that would be seriously bothered by a studio stomping a fan-film would be diehard fans. But that crowd will support the franchise anyway.

Bingo.

Or at least, that's the studio's take. For the most part, it's probably true. Even fans who will openly lambast the thing will go see it eventually simply because they gots ta know!! It is, in my experience, extremely rare that a hardcore fan will skip an entry in their favorite franchise, just because they're pissed about the direction of that franchise. Even if they don't go see it, they'll still read an online synopsis, and/or follow the reaction to the entry, partially out of curiosity and partially to validate their own view of the entry in question/wrong direction of the franchise.

If I had a penny for every email I read between corporate execs, directors, and managers who don't even know if they should tell legal about what they're doing... or are outright hiding the ball from legal...

I worked on one case where a VP in the London office of a major multinational told his friends via email not to buy his company's stock that week, because they were about to take a financial hit. If you're wondering, yes -- insider trading is illegal in England, too. I was gobsmacked, because this was one of my earliest cases, but I've since seen plenty of other examples of company culture run amok despite the compliance/legal team's best efforts. The world is full of stupid clients. That's why it's also full of smart lawyers.

I'd hate to be corporate counsel and find out my bosses were raiding the till or outright killing people. Not an enviable position. But it happens.

Yup. Fortunately, my clients don't go to such lengths. When they act badly, it's more because they're flouting government regulations or trying to think of creative ways to do something illegal in the hopes that their creativity will make it legal. Which almost never happens. But hey, it keeps the lights on here.

 

[asalaw]

Yup. Fortunately, my clients don't go to such lengths. When they act badly, it's more because they're flouting government regulations or trying to think of creative ways to do something illegal in the hopes that their creativity will make it legal. Which almost never happens. But hey, it keeps the lights on here.

That's most cases. But every now and then...

Funny how many clients, across all kinds of different practice areas, come to believe they've found the ultimate loophole to liability. Such as in criminal law: "But I had no idea the gun was loaded when I pointed it at her and pulled the trigger!" Or "I was just holding that crystal meth for a friend!" Or in civil law: "I'm not calling it Star Trek, just Axanar!"

But as you say, they do keep the lights on.

 

[mkstewartesq]

Well, the official Star Trek Fan Film Guidelines are out. If you are a fan-film maker, you can thank Axanar . . . :wacko

M

(edit to correct to "if you were a fan-film maker . . ." - because most current fan films are likely pretty much dead in the water under these guidelines.

 

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah, I don't blame CBS/Paramount, I blame Axanar for this.

That said, I disagree with some of these restrictions, especially the limit on time/series, but let's not forget that they don't need to allow you to do anything at all. They own the IP, and we as fans have no entitlement here.

I do hope that these are just the safest of guidelines under which you're guaranteed to be safe, more than strict rules, and that they'll judge this on a case by case basis so that for example Star Trek Continues can finish off their remaining episodes.