Avatar reviews - Attention : spoilers

[foxbatkllr]

It may have taken 30 seconds for Obi-Wan to explain that back then, but then again you have to admit it that he didn't quite explain it very well in that 20 years later a whole new can of worms was opened up when Lucas set his pen on paper writing Episode 1. Suddenly Obi-Wan's explanation wasn't so conclusive. It is now about 32 years since ANH and we have no freakin' clue how exactly to explain the force in that it just seems like some genetic BS vs. the magical thought that anyone could possess this power. My dreams of having that power were shattered. Do you know how many times growing up I tried to use the force?! :confused How does a substance in your blood enable you to control gravity and movement of objects around you? Someone scientific explain!

See I just wish it was just left at it being magic.

If you thought anybody could use the Force, you didn't pay very close attention to the original trilogy.

 

[niennumb1]

If you thought anybody could use the Force, you didn't pay very close attention to the original trilogy.

I was a kid.

 

[CessnaDriver]

Humanity discovering a new world with intelligent life we could communicate with and actually work out trade deals and build a working beneficial relationship for both makes for extremely poor drama I know, though it is a far more likely and realistic scenario.

Of course you can write all kinds of baddies into the mix trying to screw it up.
Enterprise had stories along those lines.


Does anyone think that we would plunder to such an extent given the massive global and international debate that would occur about how to go forward in such a situation?
The top science minds and others of all disciplines of all countries would work together going forth to learn and debate all the ethical issues and move forward with the best of intentions.

This is so obvious to occur to me.


I posit that Cameron's scenario is adolescent, and intentionally so.

Of course, I do think he has worked on this since he was an adolescent no?

That may explain a lot right there.


Or in this future did IQ just suddenly drop?

 

[MooCriket]

Cessna...does history make sense to you?! Come on, man. Truth is and always will be stranger than fiction. I find it far more likely that the event's in Avatar would play out exactly like on screen, than someone actually negotiating or saying... we come in peace, need your minerals but will do everything possible not to change your way of life:lol Especially, where greed is involved.

You honestly give us far too much credit as a species.

 

[CessnaDriver]

Cessna...does history make sense to you?! Come on, man. Truth is and always will be stranger than fiction. I find it far more likely that the event's in Avatar would play out exactly like on screen, than someone actually negotiating or saying... we come in peace, need your minerals but will do everything possible not to change your way of life:lol Especially, where greed is involved.

You honestly give us far too much credit as a species.

No I do not think so at all, It's more complex then that. I know that discovering intelligent species in space would be a huge game changer, and the global community today is not going to suddenly revert hundreds of years to something like 1800's US Cavalry in regards to it.

 

[MooCriket]

Okay, fair enough. I don't buy it but okay. Were talking about a corporation driven by profit. I'm sure they could manipulate whatever media is around to paint them in a positve light, i.e., we were trying to educate and improve the quality of life for those savages, and in return they became aggresive terrorist, etc.

 

[CessnaDriver]

Okay, fair enough. I don't buy it but okay. Were talking about a corporation driven by profit. I'm sure they could manipulate whatever media is around to paint them in a positve light, i.e., we were trying to educate and improve the quality of life for those savages, and in return they became aggresive terrorist, etc.

It would be government agencys and organizations like NASA, ESA, JAXA, etc with international crews and strict guidelines how to behave and what to do initiating contact and communications, taking steps forward from there.


I doubt were just going to contract out and send Weyland Yutani to take care of things willy nilly... Just get the goodies, we don't care how!!!

 

[cboath]

Humanity discovering a new world with intelligent life we could communicate with and actually work out trade deals and build a working beneficial relationship for both makes for extremely poor drama I know, though it is a far more likely and realistic scenario.

Of course you can write all kinds of baddies into the mix trying to screw it up.
Enterprise had stories along those lines.


Does anyone think that we would plunder to such an extent given the massive global and international debate that would occur about how to go forward in such a situation?
The top science minds and others of all disciplines of all countries would work together going forth to learn and debate all the ethical issues and move forward with the best of intentions.

This is so obvious to occur to me.


I posit that Cameron's scenario is adolescent, and intentionally so.

Of course, I do think he has worked on this since he was an adolescent no?

That may explain a lot right there.


Or in this future did IQ just suddenly drop?

Sorry, but I can't put anything past the giant corporations of today. All that matters is profit, nothing else. They can't do things for the good of humanity and you expect they'd do good for a race of what the 'comany men' referred to as savages?

It also implies that the whole world knows about this place and the beings living there. It is possible the existence of the beings is being omitted from what's being told to the populace back home.

If there was a couple trillion dollars worth of rock under my house and I refused to sell to the powers that be, I don't honestly expect i'd live very long past my decline of their final offer.

I have more faith in humanity than big business, but humanity and the people don't run the show, BB does.

If such a situation existed today and the world knew of the Na'vi or whatever race was found on the planet and big business wanted something there that the natives wouldn't give up, i'd imagine there'd be some kind of 'accident' that drove the people far away and opened up the area to mining or whatever. I don't believe big business would hold off for a second if they thought they were the much stronger and advanced of the two sides.

 

[CessnaDriver]

Sorry, but I can't put anything past the giant corporations of today. All that matters is profit, nothing else. They can't do things for the good of humanity and you expect they'd do good for a race of what the 'comany men' referred to as savages?

It also implies that the whole world knows about this place and the beings living there. It is possible the existence of the beings is being omitted from what's being told to the populace back home.

If there was a couple trillion dollars worth of rock under my house and I refused to sell to the powers that be, I don't honestly expect i'd live very long past my decline of their final offer.

I have more faith in humanity than big business, but humanity and the people don't run the show, BB does.

If such a situation existed today and the world knew of the Na'vi or whatever race was found on the planet and big business wanted something there that the natives wouldn't give up, i'd imagine there'd be some kind of 'accident' that drove the people far away and opened up the area to mining or whatever. I don't believe big business would hold off for a second if they thought they were the much stronger and advanced of the two sides.

See my post above.

And consider the international cooperation of the ISS as example of how humans go forth in space together, how do you think the ISS crew would handle the situation on Pandora?

That is really where the reality would be I think.

 

[MooCriket]

I was left with a feeling that our world was in bad shape, and even though killing innocent natives might look bad to investors...a good stock report was worth it.

I still think this place was like the wild west, and there did not seem to be any govt. watchdog group present to ensure the corporation was playing fair.

However, you do make equally good points:thumbsup

 

[CessnaDriver]

I was left with a feeling that our world was in bad shape, and even though killing innocent natives might look bad to investors...a good stock report was worth it.

I still think this place was like the wild west, and there did not seem to be any govt. watchdog group present to ensure the corporation was playing fair.

However, you do make equally good points:thumbsup

It's a situation of convenience for drama's sake Cameron has created, and I understand that need.
It's just too heavy handed on humanity for my tastes with only a select few "good" humans, and on the adolescent side.... Evil corporations! near magically pure aliens. It's fairy tale stuff.

 

[cboath]

See my post above.

And consider the international cooperation of the ISS as example of how humans go forth in space together, how do you think teh ISS crew would handle the situation on Pandora?

That is really where the reality would be I think.

That's how humans go into space TODAY.

The beginning of the movie is them coming out of 5.5 years of cryo-sleep or whatever you want to call it.

Add to that govt's are cutting their money for space exploration - except china who's increasing theirs big time since they're in catch-up mode. We're just now seeing the beginning's of corporate space ventures. Just a theortectical thing, but if Exxon, for example, developed a rocket that could land on the moon, what would stop them from going and taking resources themselves? The US can say they can't lift off from here, but if they drop a billion dollars on a south pacific nation to go from there, then what? No one on earth owns the moon, or mars, or venus, etc.

Now, jump forward to being able to send people on a 5.5 year cryo-journey. If it's corporate funded and corporate executed - who says the population of earth will know they've even found an inhabitable planet? It took what? 40 years before it officially came out that tobacco companies knew nicotine was bad and they were intentionally trying to addict people. You don't think that something like pandora could be kept secret from the people of earth? It's not like it's next store - like people who worked at the tobacco companies. It's a 6 year nap away. Presumably there's some type of communication system that's a bit faster, but maybe not. Why do you think they were sending all the potential 'trouble makers' back on the next shuttle? It takes 6 years and by the time they woke up and could tell anyone, the powers that be would have had a six year head start on mining the uber-rock for profit.

Today's space exploration is still goverment run. What was in Pandora had seemingly zero govt involvement. As a company, no laws prevent me from getting some country to allow me to build a launch platform and put people in space. And no law prevents me from finding volunteers to go to Mars, Neptune, or anywhere. And no law says i can't mine Pluto for gold, platinum, diamonds, or whatever.

500 years ago, different pieces of the 'new world' were 'claimed' by Spain, England, Portugal, etc. Even though 'savages' already lived there. Those countries used their might to shove the natives out of the lands they lived in for ages so they could take back the resources to their home countries. 40 years ago, we landed on the moon and planted the american flag, ostensibly claiming it for ourselves. The next step is a company being the first to land on a planet and claiming it for themselves. Humanity kicked other humans out of their ancestoral homes in the new world 500 years ago. I find it hard to believe people would think a company or secretive government wouldn't do the same to a supposed alien population they encountered and felt to be 'savage'. It'll play into who finds them first. If it's someone who gives a damn about the people and the scientific aspects of it, the people will likely be fine. If it's a government or business hell bent on money - don't be surprised if they're wiped out before their acknowledged to exist. Our species has done it before....

 

[Carson Dyle]

The top science minds and others of all disciplines of all countries would work together going forth to learn and debate all the ethical issues and move forward with the best of intentions.

The "best and the brightest," right?

Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.



Look, Avatar is a fairy tale. This we can all agree on. Faulting a fairy tale for being "adolescent" misses the point. Cameron isn't trying to predict the future; he's just using futuristic iconography to comment upon the relationship between modern man, nature, and technology -- hopefully in an entertaining way. I mean, very few sci-fi films are "realistic" when it comes to portraying the future.

For example: I've yet to encounter anyone on this board who didn't like District 9. I myself thought it was a fantastic, but not because I believe visitors to Earth would ever, in any credible scenario, be relegated to life in a South African slum. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure our "best and brightest" minds would come up with more suitable accommodations for visitors from the stars. Nevertheless, I found the film to be both entertaining and thematically relevant to the way we live now.

Avatar and District 9 are radically different movies, but they do share one common theme: a genuine pessimism re: the motives and methods of those in leadership positions. The protagonists of both films are self-serving cogs in a system they once trusted but which ultimately tries to destroy them. Given recent history, it's easy to see where that pessimism stems from. Both films strike a cautionary tone, but end on hopeful notes -- the idea being that large groups of humans can make dreadful collective decisions, but individuals can make a difference. The second part of that sentence may be wishful thinking (Fairy Tale thinking, if you prefer) but that doesn't mean it's "adolescent."

What is unceasingly adolescent is James Cameron's dialogue, but whaddya gonna do. The guy can't help himself, and at the end of the day a few clunky lines are a small price to pay to witness one of the most amazing cinematic flights of fantasy ever conceived.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Evil corporations! near magically pure aliens. It's fairy tale stuff.

I don't know about aliens, but if you can look back at the suck-fest of a decade now drawing mercifully to a close and tell me we have nothing to fear from "corporations" then I can only conclude you didn't have stock in Enron.

 

[cboath]

It's a situation of convenience for drama's sake Cameron has created, and I understand that need.
It's just too heavy handed on humanity for my tastes with only a select few "good" humans, and on the adolescent side.... Evil corporations! near magically pure aliens. It's fairy tale stuff.

Nothing wrong with fairy tale stuff either. There's a reason the original fairy tales still exist and are popular.

As for too heavy handed on humanity. I don't know. Maybe need to be hard on ourselves. Half the powers that be don't want to bother with things like global warming because it'll cut into their profit margin. And that's it. That's all they care about. Casting aside whether or not it's true or not, what's the harm in erring on the side of caution? It only hurts profit margins and prices. Much better than saying F it and being wrong...we don't care about our own planet on the whole. Some do, but not that majority, at least not the majority who calls the shots. As long as we can beat last years financials and increase executive pay, that's all that matters. It's like the bailouts, 'please please please, give us umpteen billion dollars to keep from going under and F off if you think you get any say in how we do things'. All that matters is profit to the top.

Seeing as this was a corporate show on pandora - do you think they take anyone who just happens to volunteer? By the time that this could take place, 100 years from not at the minimum, there'll be 12 billion people on this planet. You don't think a corporation could find a few thousand people who wouldn't have a problem wiping out a savage population for money? There are plenty of mercenaries in the world today. The only reason jake got to go and likely skip the psychological evaluation part was that his twin brother was killed, rather than take a multibillion dollar loss on his avatar body they offered to his twin brother. Again, plays into the profit line bit. Kind of like oil companies...after 3 years of multibillion dollar 11 figure (record) profits, they have one bad year and lay people off. All that matters is the bottom dollar.

There's a reason the science contingent there was like 20 people and the military about 5000.

I have lots of faith in humanity, but very little - actually none - in large corporations. I don't doubt for a second a large corporation would try something like that if it meant a monopoly on something like oil today.

 

[CessnaDriver]

Well, fairy tales are popular, obviously Cameron knows this. If his dialogue is not as engaging of the adult mind as some would like, it may be by design as well and probably in his view worth the compromise for the most B.O. bucks and hence his reputation. Though I still picture a teen Cameron thinking this stuff up. Fairy tales are best kept simple and almost never reflect reality. Given the otherwise tech nature of the film, simplicity was the side to err on for popular appeal. I just think he heaped far too much on future space faring humanity. As if we have learned nothing or ever will, when evidences are.... we do collectively make good decisions too. Though those are not going to get much press. LOL



Interesting that both these recent films, both with single individuals making a difference against the nearly given now.. dominative evil human behavior....end up ditching humanity all together as a species and becoming aliens.

Not much optimism in that when your heroes cease being human.

It's a bit different from say the transformation in 2001, taking the next step in evolution.
Rather that humans are just plain awful and better to be something else.

 

[CessnaDriver]

I don't know about aliens, but if you can look back at the suck-fest of a decade now drawing mercifully to a close and tell me we have nothing to fear from "corporations" then I can only conclude you didn't have stock in Enron.

My evil corporation I work for contributes greatly to charity, I have personally been given time to volunteer for charity on company time.
It contributes to schools and city needs and educational facilities. And enables tech that nearly every human on the planet who has a wireless device benefits from. No they don't do it for free. We charge royalties and much funds go back into R&D for the next gizmo that dazzles.

It's a broad brush to characterize thousands of corporations as Enron no?

My life would likley not be as good without my company. My whole city would not that is for certain. It created jobs after the defense industry crash.

 

[CessnaDriver]

That's how humans go into space TODAY.

The beginning of the movie is them coming out of 5.5 years of cryo-sleep or whatever you want to call it.

Add to that govt's are cutting their money for space exploration - except china who's increasing theirs big time since they're in catch-up mode. We're just now seeing the beginning's of corporate space ventures. Just a theortectical thing, but if Exxon, for example, developed a rocket that could land on the moon, what would stop them from going and taking resources themselves? The US can say they can't lift off from here, but if they drop a billion dollars on a south pacific nation to go from there, then what? No one on earth owns the moon, or mars, or venus, etc.

Now, jump forward to being able to send people on a 5.5 year cryo-journey. If it's corporate funded and corporate executed - who says the population of earth will know they've even found an inhabitable planet? It took what? 40 years before it officially came out that tobacco companies knew nicotine was bad and they were intentionally trying to addict people. You don't think that something like pandora could be kept secret from the people of earth? It's not like it's next store - like people who worked at the tobacco companies. It's a 6 year nap away. Presumably there's some type of communication system that's a bit faster, but maybe not. Why do you think they were sending all the potential 'trouble makers' back on the next shuttle? It takes 6 years and by the time they woke up and could tell anyone, the powers that be would have had a six year head start on mining the uber-rock for profit.

Today's space exploration is still goverment run. What was in Pandora had seemingly zero govt involvement. As a company, no laws prevent me from getting some country to allow me to build a launch platform and put people in space. And no law prevents me from finding volunteers to go to Mars, Neptune, or anywhere. And no law says i can't mine Pluto for gold, platinum, diamonds, or whatever.

500 years ago, different pieces of the 'new world' were 'claimed' by Spain, England, Portugal, etc. Even though 'savages' already lived there. Those countries used their might to shove the natives out of the lands they lived in for ages so they could take back the resources to their home countries. 40 years ago, we landed on the moon and planted the american flag, ostensibly claiming it for ourselves. The next step is a company being the first to land on a planet and claiming it for themselves. Humanity kicked other humans out of their ancestoral homes in the new world 500 years ago. I find it hard to believe people would think a company or secretive government wouldn't do the same to a supposed alien population they encountered and felt to be 'savage'. It'll play into who finds them first. If it's someone who gives a damn about the people and the scientific aspects of it, the people will likely be fine. If it's a government or business hell bent on money - don't be surprised if they're wiped out before their acknowledged to exist. Our species has done it before....

How we go into space today, is the best way to understand how it will evolve tomorrow. A cold war fueled the space race, now former enemies in that war have built an international space station. Yes and corporations build much of the hardware, by contract, no more. They don't have say beyond that. It's a harsh an demanding environment. It takes great focus planning and care to not die up there. I doubt it would devolve as Cameron has presented to corporate raiding of aliens worlds.
Obviously he can make up whatever he wants in a fantasy world for drama's sake.

I simply find it.. simplistic and not realistic that evil self serving conciousless corporations would be allowed to rape sentient aliens whole planets without previous oversight long preventing such things.

Even on earth now, there are tons of off limit places to such things.
Massive national park systems, Indian reservations (though some indians take advantage of their natural resources), no drill zones for oil, natural preserves, limits on fishing, etc.

By federal law that stuff exists. No company can just go do anything they want willy nilly these days.

 

[Carson Dyle]

I simply find it.. simplistic and not realistic that evil self serving conciousless corporations would be allowed to rape sentient aliens whole planets without previous oversight long preventing such things.

Yeah, because God knows those in power always play nice with weak, peaceful, indigenous populations who have something worth owning.

Jeez, Cessna, I'm a pretty optimistic guy, but your faith in The Man makes me feel like Noam Chomsky.

For the record, I never meant to suggest all corporations were evil. Clearly that's not the case.

That said, I do believe power corrupts. Always has, always will. Given half a chance the powerful will take advantage of the weak, and if you think otherwise... well, one of us must have grown up on a different planet.



And on that note, Happy New Year!

 

[CessnaDriver]

Yeah, because God knows those in power always play nice with weak, peaceful, indigenous populations who have something worth owning.

Jeez, Cessna, I'm a pretty optimistic guy, but your faith in The Man makes me feel like Noam Chomsky.

For the record, I never meant to suggest all corporations were evil. Clearly that's not the case.

That said, I do believe power corrupts. Always has, always will. Given half a chance the powerful will take advantage of the weak, and if you think otherwise... well, one of us must have grown up on a different planet.



And on that note, Happy New Year!

I just don't think or have reason to believe that things are so negative we will attempt to rape sentient aliens entire planets in the future, even if they don't have heat rays and ray guns.


I don't think that makes me pollyannaishly optimistic.

I think Cameron painted an unrealistic extreme future for drama's sake and kicked humanity in the nuts to do so.

Even meeting half way would have quieted my gripes... some. LOL

And yes, sincerely happy new year indeed!