AA/SDS recasting issue...

Originally posted by motorfish@Jan 12 2006, 03:08 PM
Why am I here? Same reason you are. I love SW, love the props, have collected nearly every ST helmet from my first Don Post '77 "toy." AND to give an alternate perspective on AA that is neither connected to him nor anything but a collector who sees someone from the original movie doing something we all have wanted...but some have tainted or decided was wrong from the get go. Or to sum up...to give some actual counter-points to the vilification process that seems to have been decided the second he went "live" with his sales.

Give me a break. You've gone way beyond giving "counterpoints". You've posted ten times the amount of virtual ink on this subject as I have. But it is interesting, as setting yourself as AA's makeshift online criminal defense lawyer, you've effectively discounted and ignored any and all evidence that several people have brought up on the contrary with "nobody has the facts" and "this is all pure conjecture" without missing a beat. I'll admit, there's been some really good visual evidence which has been brought to light too.

So, are your opinions conjecture as well?

You may not like Matt, but at least he never lied about where his stuff came from, and he probably got on your case about it, didn't he? That's what this is really about isn't it? Matt probably told where you could stick your conjecture, and your ego, being what it is, has now turned it's main guns towards him, hasn't it? I know you and he don't get along, and I'm beginning to see why. "Conjecture", of course.

You're very different from the guy I used to joke and clown around with three years ago. This part isn't conjecture. It's the truth.

And it's sad...
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Yes, my opinions are conjecture because...they are opinions. That's the problem, nearly everything, even looking at the photographic evidence, is subjective and open to many interpretations by the people involved in these discussions. That's why this keeps going around and around and around.

Basically the armor, the helmets, and many props have become to many of us works of art. And all art is quite subjective. Yes, there might be this copy, and it might be made from that original or that other copy, or it could be that way with possible changes over on this area. But it is all speculation, there are just no facts to back up a lot of stuff.

In many other cases, from Dark Jedi Inc, to the current discucssion about Glover, to Universal Armor there were direct instances and knowledge of recasting. From an owner being able to state "I sold him that...and now he's made a copy of it" to someone pointing out "That has my tell on it (like GF's coin)." But so far it's all based on comparisons through photos and assumptions. Now...GF's comments hold weight with me and others I'm sure. I to find it disheartening about the possible copying of the AB plate in some respects. But...was it? Or are there coincidences in the look? I can't say, nobody can say. Unless AA got it from someone from the 501st or RPF (which is probable as I can't see just anyone owning a GF outfit) and they reveal themselves or are found out...there is no definitive proof of what happened nor what the parts are really from.

This goes back to the, at times, viscious attacks about the helmet molds. How do we, or ANYONE, know just what he has and what he's working with? We don't. It was agreed upon, even by those now changing their stories, that AA was without doubt the man who made the suits and armor. Suddenly though, once even a small possible discrepency is found, he's jumped on and torn to shreds by anyone and everyone who can, with motivations usually behind them.

There is nothing wrong, and I fully enjoy, threads discussing about the differences, the changes, etc. We all have learned a HUGE amount from these threads including the fact that no two ST of anything look alike. But when people state what is nothing more than assumptions and opinions as FACT...that's when something has got be said. And yes, I have a lot of posts in here...because I feel that there is a huge unfair amount of anti-AA sentiment being portrayed as facts when they are not. And from people who do have a past of some kind with AA that usually isn't revealed or that they are being portrayed as being completely honorable in their intentions. I am not saying everyone in these discussions of course, you can usually tell the neutral members easily because they look at both sides or offer up what they say as opinion, not fact.

Frankly I think this is all silly but for the reasons I've stated before. AA made the stuff, so far nothing disproves that (the LFL argument is yet to be determined as valid). Everything after AA is "seconds" and people made a LOT of money off his designs and models. As the original creator, whether he has "tweaked" stuff or not which would be his right to do in either case, he should be able to do as he wants regarding the helmets and armor. It would be like Da Vinci coming back after 20 years and seeing all the copies of his works, seeing the fabrications, etc. and going "well, why shouldn't I do my own stuff?" And so he does, fixing it as he feels is best for it to sell. Now again, if it is proven that AA is not what he claims, that he doesn't have even a creative leg to stand on (as the UK argument seems to be) then that nullifies everything and basically he is no better than any armor maker from Marco to FX in what he's doing and how it's done. But at present, this hasn't been shown and there has been way more evidence in support of him being who he says he is, and what he did on SW, than against.

That's why everyone should just stop with the SDS discussions completely and sit on the sidelines to let justice take its course.

Now, as for your comment about Matt and my feelings toward him. I haven't talked to Matt about any of this. I am not going to get into whether he lies or not (he has to me, years ago, and I know a few others) but to say that he is not without "sin" as it were.

As for me Dan...I actually haven't changed except I'm not willing to let half-truths, hidden agendas, and hypocricy go un-challanged. (Note...especially that many of those attacking AA were defending MR against nearly the same type of attacks now being used against AA when MR first showed their Han Solo blaster, about the TOS Phaser stand, and the Training Remote parts. That is what I find the most hypocritical.)

I have a lot of fun with the hobby, with my friends here and elsewhere. However I find it sad that some, including those I once had a lot of respect for, have become so petty, so angry that they are willing to forget this is a hobby, that people are still people and deserve to be given a chance and treated with respect, and that someone shouldn't be so utterly attacked without even knowing all the facts and information as AA has been.

And Dan, believe it or not, I still do respect you. I believe you are still an incredible artist and seem to have always been a really cool guy. But I do think your friendship with Matt has given you a huge bias in this and while your opinion is valuable you shouldn't try to portray it as fact.

Frankly all of this is sad. Very sad.
 
Originally posted by motorfish@Jan 12 2006, 03:37 PM
Well at least you admit that profit was part of the motive, from what was being said it sounded like everything being said here was just honorable intentions.

And if you did not work with TE, then I do apologize. The very last time I spoke to him, and it was after he acquired his outfit a few years ago, he said "Dan, Motorfish, helps me out with this stuff so the helmets won't be as bad as the one I painted for you." That apparently didn't happen and so I am sorry if I was going off old information.

Like I said before, I never said that TE and GF weren't out to make some money too, but that the desire to provide awesome trooper armore was greater than the desire to aquire money from it. Who doesn't want profit?

Years ago, like I also said, I used to help clear frames of vacuform pulls, which means that I cleared the frame that holds the plastic with a pulled piece and replaced it with a new fresh piece. I pretty much ended up slowing him down more than helping him in the long run, so that didn't last too long, as he ended up working much faster on his own.

The idea years ago was that I was going to paint the frowns and ears, but it never came about. I just didn't have the time, and Matt actually got pretty good at it after I showed him some techniques to make his lines tighter. If he had any help in detailing helmets and armor, it didn't come from me. I did completely paint four Colonial Marine costumes for him though, in record time too. Three days, including the pulse rifles.
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And again, I apologize, I didn't realize that you didn't end up working with him on the helmets as he said you would. So clearly I was wrong. And I'm glad you were able to help him with his painting, as it was really rough at the begining (good try though.).

As I said in my last, too long, post, you're a hell of an artist, I have nothing but the highest admiration for your work and I always have. I never tire of seeing what you do.
 
I agree Motorfish, you are very talented. I can't see why we can't remain cordial to one another. We don't have to agree on this AA stuff. That's the beauty of a discussion, everyone gets to voice their views. I might not agree with your views of this stuff, but I do respect your differing opinions. :)

Peace,

Dave
 
Dammit Dave, why didn't you post that first and I wouldn't have had to go into that long winded explanation, your's is so much easier.

:lol
 
I love this place because you find a variety of threads about all types of stuff, it's great :)

But you people are going over the same stuff, over and over and over. Drawing the same conclusions and disagreeing about the same points.

You are now 13 pages into this thread and what have to achieved? What have you changed?

You are not going to change other peoples minds. Both camps believe what they want to believe.

Circles......

Let the issue rest and agree to disagree.

Petty squabbles aren't going to change anything.

We all know what's gone on and what Mr Ainsworth is suspected of doing, we have eyes.

So let's just sit back and watch what happens.

There is so much more going on in the prop world to talk about.

All the best.

Steve
 
Originally posted by Helmetman@Jan 12 2006, 09:23 PM
I love this place because you find a variety of threads about all types of stuff, it's great :)

But you people are going over the same stuff, over and over and over.  Drawing the same conclusions and disagreeing about the same points.

You are now 13 pages into this thread and what have to achieved?  What have you changed?

You are not going to change other peoples minds.  Both camps believe what they want to believe.

Circles......

Let the issue rest and agree to disagree.

Petty squabbles aren't going to change anything.

We all know what's gone on and what Mr Ainsworth is suspected of doing, we have eyes.

So let's just sit back and watch what happens.

There is so much more going on in the prop world to talk about.

All the best.

Steve
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Alright.
 
I'll just end by saying that our legal system is built around the opinion of just 12 individuals. Lets hope for AA's sake that their all blind.
 
More importantly RKW, let's hope for Justice's sake, they have 20/20 vision no matter the final outcome.

Peace,

Dave :)

Originally posted by RKW@Jan 12 2006, 05:50 PM
I'll just end by saying that our legal system is built around the opinion of just 12 individuals. Lets hope for AA's sake that their all blind.
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And nobody shows them any fuzzy pictures. :p

Originally posted by vaderdarth+Jan 12 2006, 04:55 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vaderdarth @ Jan 12 2006, 04:55 PM)</div>
More importantly RKW,  let's hope for Justice's sake,  they have 20/20 vision no matter the final outcome.

Peace,

Dave :)

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@Jan 12 2006, 05:50 PM
I'll just end by saying that our legal system is built around the opinion of just 12 individuals. Lets hope for AA's sake that their all blind.
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Originally posted by Lord Abaddon@Jan 12 2006, 04:57 PM
Frankly I think this is all silly but for the reasons I've stated before.  AA made the stuff, so far nothing disproves that (the LFL argument is yet to be determined as valid).  Everything after AA is "seconds" and people made a LOT of money off his designs and models.  As the original creator, whether he has "tweaked" stuff or not which would be his right to do in either case, he should be able to do as he wants regarding the helmets and armor.  It would be like Da Vinci coming back after 20 years and seeing all the copies of his works, seeing the fabrications, etc. and going "well, why shouldn't I do my own stuff?" 


Hold up on this comment Mike.

First of all, if you really want to get down and dirty, AA/SDS is NOT the creator of the Stormtrooper design just because he built the molds and made the armor. If you want to look at it like that, Ralph McQuarrie owns the design to the Stormtrooper look and design as he is the one who originally designed the item. He put substance to the thought. He drew the white shocktroopers. He owns the design....Oh wait. That's right. He was working for Lucasfilm. He was paid by Lucasfilm for the design. :p

And technically, Da Vinci didn't own a lot of his own work. Mona Lisa was a commisioned piece of art when it was created. A lot of his stuff was commisioned art. He was contracted to do a lot of his paintings. Paid for a service. Oh wait. AA/SDS was also paid for a service and was commisioned for some work. Hmmmmmmmmmmm........
 
Originally posted by vaderdarth@Jan 12 2006, 01:35 PM
If LFL kept their ANH moulds,  they shouldn't have a hard time proving it in court,  eh??? 

I theorize they didn't keep all the technical junk after filming ANH because they were so convinced it would flop at the box office.  I'm frankly suprised that so many ANH props even exist in the archives.......what with all the original props in private collectors hands.    Most of LFL's original props on display were from ESB/ROTJ.  They don't have a huge collection of ANH pieces from what I can tell.  It looks like he kept his favorites and let the rest go.........or else tried to salvage the remnants for the following two films.
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Most independent contractors who do work for large corporations in regards to prototyping keep the molds they make. They do this so that the people who paid them will have to come back to them if they want more parts. Keeps competition down. AFAIK, it is an industry standard. Our vendors do it and I did it when I was on the other side.

The only thing is though, that they were a paid source for those wanting the work done. All work done by the contractor is still the legal property of the company seeking the work. That is what nondisclosure agreements are for etc. etc.. It keeps the contractors from using the property of another company for their own gain or to sell it to someone else.

Unless AA didn't sign an agreement, or put a copyright on the design before LFL, I personally see no possible means for him to have the rights to make and produce armor just because he made the originals.

Of course, this is all conjecture. :D
 
Originally posted by gavidoc+Jan 12 2006, 05:09 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gavidoc @ Jan 12 2006, 05:09 PM)</div>
<!--QuoteBegin-Lord Abaddon
@Jan 12 2006, 04:57 PM
Frankly I think this is all silly but for the reasons I've stated before.  AA made the stuff, so far nothing disproves that (the LFL argument is yet to be determined as valid).  Everything after AA is "seconds" and people made a LOT of money off his designs and models.  As the original creator, whether he has "tweaked" stuff or not which would be his right to do in either case, he should be able to do as he wants regarding the helmets and armor.  It would be like Da Vinci coming back after 20 years and seeing all the copies of his works, seeing the fabrications, etc. and going "well, why shouldn't I do my own stuff?" 


Hold up on this comment Mike.

First of all, if you really want to get down and dirty, AA/SDS is NOT the creator of the Stormtrooper design just because he built the molds and made the armor. If you want to look at it like that, Ralph McQuarrie owns the design to the Stormtrooper look and design as he is the one who originally designed the item. He put substance to the thought. He drew the white shocktroopers. He owns the design....Oh wait. That's right. He was working for Lucasfilm. He was paid by Lucasfilm for the design. :p

And technically, Da Vinci didn't own a lot of his own work. Mona Lisa was a commisioned piece of art when it was created. A lot of his stuff was commisioned art. He was contracted to do a lot of his paintings. Paid for a service. Oh wait. AA/SDS was also paid for a service and was commisioned for some work. Hmmmmmmmmmmm........
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McQuarrie came up with a concept, but the final result supposedly was all AA's work. So far there has been nothing to disprove this at all. No statues shown, no comments from other ANH staff, Mollo and others have confirmed that AA was the one they went to for making the final product.

And again, this will all be determined by the courts, one way or another. Or it might never be, and we'll all still be in our "camps."

Now...as for Da Vinci...what contract did he have and what rights were signed over? :p
 
Originally posted by gavidoc+Jan 12 2006, 05:11 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gavidoc @ Jan 12 2006, 05:11 PM)</div>
<!--QuoteBegin-vaderdarth
@Jan 12 2006, 01:35 PM
If LFL kept their ANH moulds,  they shouldn't have a hard time proving it in court,  eh??? 

I theorize they didn't keep all the technical junk after filming ANH because they were so convinced it would flop at the box office.  I'm frankly suprised that so many ANH props even exist in the archives.......what with all the original props in private collectors hands.    Most of LFL's original props on display were from ESB/ROTJ.  They don't have a huge collection of ANH pieces from what I can tell.  It looks like he kept his favorites and let the rest go.........or else tried to salvage the remnants for the following two films.
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Most independent contractors who do work for large corporations in regards to prototyping keep the molds they make. They do this so that the people who paid them will have to come back to them if they want more parts. Keeps competition down. AFAIK, it is an industry standard. Our vendors do it and I did it when I was on the other side.

The only thing is though, that they were a paid source for those wanting the work done. All work done by the contractor is still the legal property of the company seeking the work. That is what nondisclosure agreements are for etc. etc.. It keeps the contractors from using the property of another company for their own gain or to sell it to someone else.

Unless AA didn't sign an agreement, or put a copyright on the design before LFL, I personally see no possible means for him to have the rights to make and produce armor just because he made the originals.

Of course, this is all conjecture. :D
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You just said it...it's conjecture, he might not have signed anything nor any agreement giving the rights away, etc. We just do not know.

And again...why would he fight so hard and two top notch legal teams take on what would be a bad call if there wasn't something there? I can't see any legal team worth their salt going "Sure, LFL will slaughter us, and we'll look like idiots for taking the case, but what the hell it's money."

That is why we just all have to wait and see.
 
Forgive me while I chime in here. The only thing I ever wanted to know and I think many others was "Where did the molds come from?" We know the TE/GF history but AA just came out of nowhere. I have nothing against his stuff. If you want it buy it. So what? It's sad how this whole thing started because of "made from original molds" statements. That is, in my opinion what started this whole thing. I seriously doubt we will ever now the truth, and even if it did come out the lines have been drawn so deep no one would belive anyone anyway. I have or owned both TE and GF stuff and love it. I am sure those that bought AA like theirs too. What makes me happy is all three of those suits and the ABS 80 suits I have seen look a hell of a lot better than the armor FX suits. No bobbleheads....
 
McQuarrie also drew and painted all the designs for the spaceships. Modelers made them into 3D objects. I guess the modelers could also lay claim to them since they built them. I guess LFL doesn't own the copy right to anything do they?

The only proof AA has as in regards to his work on SW is his word. And from what has transpired with the recasting (MR stand GF/TE armor) and lying "original molds" etc the man has no credibility left asside from the interminable,incessant, ramblings of a few staunch cheerleaders.


Accuracy can be measured. It is not speculative. Measurements=facts.
 
Originally posted by Lord Abaddon+Jan 12 2006, 05:58 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lord Abaddon @ Jan 12 2006, 05:58 PM)</div>
And nobody shows them any fuzzy pictures.  :p

Originally posted by vaderdarth@Jan 12 2006, 04:55 PM
More importantly RKW,  let's hope for Justice's sake,  they have 20/20 vision no matter the final outcome.

Peace,

Dave :)

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@Jan 12 2006, 05:50 PM
I'll just end by saying that our legal system is built around the opinion of just 12 individuals. Lets hope for AA's sake that their all blind.
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Not to be cruel, but that is the gawdamned funniest thing I have read in this thread.
 
Gav, I agree with you to a degree, but only LFL and AA know what the arrangement was way back then.

I wonder sometimes if the court will be swayed by the timeline of the whole AA/LFL issue. If LFL didn't become the legal license holder for all things Star Wars until After the deal was struck with AA.....and of course, the moulds were made..........then AA just might have a suprise legal leg to stand on in the UK.

All will be revealed in a court setting soon enough most likely, unless they settle. One expects LFL to run away with it (especially with Intellectual Property rights and all it entails), but you never know what a UK court of law might decide if Andrew provides them enough details about the "agreement" and provides enough proof that each successive set of armor has links back to his moulds. The underdog just might have a chance.

It's all speculation still. Sometimes things turn up in court that change the course of history. You don't always see it coming. I won't lie, no matter the outcome, I am very much interested in the process and how it turns out based on whatever is provided by both sides.

I only fear that if LFL does win, it doesn't negatively affect our hobby.......as that should really be our main concern about our own stance here at the RPF. What if LFL doesn't just stop with AA........I know the though has crossed other people's minds. There have been many vendors mentioned since this all began. LFL once implied that GF only got his wrist slapped, and that if they had to make more examples..........they might get aggressive. Wouldn't you absolutely hate to think you are the next one being investigated by LFL???

In this little playground we enjoy so much, our reality has boundaries to some degree.......we talk about "rights" to this or that.......but in the real world, none of us have any rights related to anything in this hobby. We can "create" sculpts and reproduce them at our whimsy...........but we truthfully don't own any rights to the Intellectual Property of these items. Let's face it, nobody around here could care less about an item not found on screen. It just won't sell. But even if we look at an object...........sculpt it based on our "vision" and sell copies..........our a$$es are still subject to the royal sling if any one of these copyright owners decide to take us on.

Why don't we find less ways to mention our "rights" in this hobby and maybe we won't get the attention of the Uncle Georges etc....

Dave

Dave
 
Originally posted by KarlBud420@Jan 12 2006, 01:50 PM

And you know this with 100% certainity?  If not you are indulging in the same behavior you were chastising everybody else for 3 pages ago...

:rolleyes

Bruce
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Well nothing is 100% certain, ;) but AA told me that very thing. Why doesn't LFL have the molds then? If they did they would have said so in the complaint. Why doesn't AA show the molds? Well there's a legal reason...

:cheers,

Thomas
 
Originally posted by vaderdarth@Jan 12 2006, 10:46 PM
Gav,  I agree with you to a degree,  but only LFL and AA know what the arrangement was way back then.   

I wonder sometimes if the court will be swayed by the timeline of the whole AA/LFL issue.    If LFL didn't become the legal license holder for all things Star Wars until After the deal was struck with AA.....and of course, the moulds were made..........then AA just might have a suprise legal leg to stand on in the UK. 

All will be revealed in a court setting soon enough most likely,  unless they settle.  One expects LFL to run away with it (especially with Intellectual Property rights and all it entails),  but you never know what a UK court of law might decide if Andrew provides them enough details about the "agreement" and provides enough proof that each successive set of armor has links back to his moulds.  The underdog just might have a chance.   

It's all speculation still.  Sometimes things turn up in court that change the course of history.  You don't always see it coming.  I won't lie,  no matter the outcome,  I am very much interested in the process and how it turns out based on whatever is provided by both sides.   

I only fear that if LFL does win,  it doesn't negatively affect our hobby.......as that should really be our main concern about our own stance here at the RPF.  What if LFL doesn't just stop with AA........I know the though has crossed other people's minds.  There have been many vendors mentioned since this all began.  LFL once implied that GF only got his wrist slapped,  and that if they had to make more examples..........they might get aggressive.  Wouldn't you absolutely hate to think you are the next one being investigated by LFL???

In this little playground we enjoy so much,  our reality has boundaries to some degree.......we talk about "rights" to this or that.......but in the real world,  none of us have any rights related to anything in this hobby.  We can "create" sculpts and reproduce them at our whimsy...........but we truthfully don't own any rights to the Intellectual Property of these items.    Let's face it,  nobody around here could care less about an item not found on screen.  It just won't sell.  But even if we look at an object...........sculpt it based on our "vision" and sell copies..........our a$$es are still subject to the royal sling if any one of these copyright owners decide to take us on.   

Why don't we find less ways  to mention our "rights" in this hobby and maybe we won't get the attention of the Uncle Georges etc....

Dave

Dave
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I wouldn't worry too much. I think as long as someone doesn't tak too huge a dump in George's cereal, the LFL legal machine won't bother you. They're not interested in a few people making a few hundres dollars here and there. AA has all but set up a factory with his product, and even then, I think his gaudiness (sp) is what got him in trouble, not the fact that he was offering up trooper suits.

I believe it's all about how he presented himself, and his product that led to the chain of events that have transpired.

Imagine if you will, if Star Wars was owned by Paramount? Then you guys would be in trouble.
 
EXACTLY. That's because they are AA's molds, not LFLs. Why hasn't LFL been able to reclaim them? Because legally they cannot...they have no evidence of ownership or rights to those molds.

nuff said....

:cheers,

Thomas
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Wow. This shows that you either have a very short memory, or that you're just here to argue with people. Simply amazing.
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What's your point? Show me where my memory is short.....
 
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