A Darth Vader Collection and Lineage Thread....

[SithLord]

I wasn't aware you posed that question to me directly.

Actually, I don't care what you think I have or don't have. After all those 20+ page threads, I concluded that the hobby isn't fun when it turns into a one-way conversation with a runaway train.

But I'll at least give you the courtesy of a response and then go back to living life.

Funny how when you and Qui are up against a corner you say the exact same things. It is no fun, I could spend my time doing better things. Well then why post here?

You say that you can see a helmet rotate and not get that much of an effect, and yet in the past you've used screenshots like that to show the tubes were short like your TD. Those same screenshots you posted just now are great examples illustrating my point of an optical effect that tubes can look like they are not protruding past the bottom lip of the mouth.

No Mac you don't get it, and you didn't get it when I first showed the shorter tubes. I didn't show them to illustrate how the shorter tubes matched the TD, I showed them to illustrate that the tubes lengths CHANGED DURING ANH. That means at some point they would have been cut and reworked.

Well I can take any mask and rotate it and it won't show that kind of change.

With respect to the detail you're calling to question, I have to refer back to past 20+ page threads on The Prop Den where, for example, you misconstrued physical cracks and damage on the surface of the TD for inherited traits from the mold off the original. The conclusion we reached was that unless you were willing to remove the paint, anything obscured by paint is purely postulation.

No Mac, the TM has a mold seam line on the right side just as the TD, but you didn't get it. Cracks come off that seam line on the TD, cracks in the paint. That doesn't mean anything except the rear neck was compressed, possibly because the TD itself was molded at some point.

And I matched a crack on the left side rear neck on the TD that is in the paint, and that is in the casting on the TM and VP.

Perhaps it is a coincidence there is a crack in the paint there on the TD with a minor branch....and that line going up around the back of the rear bottom tube matches the TM and VP. So? I don't know if the crack in the paint has an underlying raised part of the casting that caused that crack but I thought initially when I saw it that it was an indication of the TD being earlier. But it is in the casting on the TM and VP and it is a real crack in the paint on the TD.

 

[SithLord]

Since you touched upon the subject of ESB castings, how about another example hmmm?

Ever study the rear of the Paul Allen original ESB stunt mask? I haven't in person like Mike has, but the photos still provide some information in relation to the ANH, as we all know the PA ESB has many details in common with the original ANH.

What about the rear edge? Why is it thin in some places and thicker in others? And why do you see this difference in thinness and thickness on other ESB castings as well (well, one other)? And why isn't it like this on the original ANH? Or on the SL ANH? But it is like this on the TD ANH.

Again the TD ANH speaks to a possible reason...

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Err... SL, you do know that facemask molds are open-ended, right? And that thickness of the cast comes down to how the caster applies the resin and fiberglass, right?

What is it you are trying to prove with the thickness of the cast? That those you mention were cast by the same person making the same mistakes of not applying material uniformly, or what?

And depending on how you trim it you can get a similar width to look wider and thinner depending on the angle of how you cut it. Ever cut a flanksteak? Not sure what it's called in English, but it's a rather large flat piece of meat that you don't cut like a loaf of bread from straight up, but rather cut at an angle and depending on the angle you can cut small or large cross sections of meat. Thickness changes at the trim area doesn't really prove anything except how it was trimmed.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Where are your buddy experts now Qui?

You think the money matters to me? I'm a collector and I study authentic castings.

Where is this proof that you speak of Qui? Where is this sound refutation of which you speak?



No, you think that of me. Paint me as you will. I do not presuppose what you spend your money on, or how you spend your free time, or how much free time you have to spend?



I'm waiting for you to describe or show me the detail on the top of the cheek of an authentic casting. And you don't. So you are telling ME I am not an expert? You post not one photo, show no authentic castings, nothing. Zippo.



Thanks, I don't think you are bad either. But this isn't about being bad or good. I am showing you and everyone here why I think the TD goes where it goes in the tree. Simple.



Qui, all you point out is that I am stubborn and that what I show is meaningless. What does that prove? Nothing.




I am not angry with you and I am not angry with myself. I merely will endeavor to convince if I encounter a tough audience. And I have plenty more to show...but I think it wouldn't really matter what I show, Qui, your mind is made up not based on what I show but based on who I am.

You keep going back to the "authentic casting" but then say it doesn't matter how much money you have spent. Thomas, you know as well as I do where all the counter points are. They are all over the Den. If Person A offered up the same shoddy evidence you have and YOU countered it with what was posted all over the Den, you would probably feel the same way I do. That what was shown by Person A was shoddy and that he was trying too hard to force something that isn't there.

This is what I see, Thomas. Sadly, in this instance, you are Person A. Like I have said before, the TD is a beautiful cast. It is its timeline that is the TRUE unknown. I know you are trying to establish the timeline, but it has always been done in a hamfisted way.

Now, to echo Carsten's point, you could get those thickness variations from laying the fiberglass differently in each cast. This is why I asked you how much you knew about pulling a casting from a mold. If you want, I can go so far as to ask one of the guys I dive with, who does this work with Kirby Morgan helmets.

 

[JoeR]

I don't know why you guys give Thomas such a hard time, he is extremely knowledgeable about Vader and much more helpful than others in the hobby.

@ Qui I have yet to see any proper picture/casting/comparison type critique from you with regards to Thomas's statements....

Joe

 

[Art Andrews]

Guys, I want to step in here because this thread is rapidly devolving into something of little value and while there are lingering tidbits that relate back to the original topic, this is becoming a personal fight over an issue that clearly is not going to be resolved here (or it would seem anywhere else). While it may leave a question-mark on exactly where Thomas' helmet fits into the overall Vader helmet family tree, can we get back to the tree and off the personal back and forth over a virtually unsolvable issue?

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Personally, until further evidence of the piece emerges I am okay with the current placement for the TD on the UK mold lineage line. When more info and evidence becomes available, I'm sure it would be easy to make the necessary changes to the chart when the time comes, if needed. I just didn't agree with it being in a whole separate molding lineage.

 

[runnriottt]

Another lesson about the TD...

The right barb-shaped indentation on the right eye corner of the TD...nothing else beats it...not the SL ANH, not the Paul Allen ESB, not the VP or 20th C, and yes it is present on the original ANH. Only smoothed out remnants remain on later castings.

Most images of the original ANH don't even show that area as it is in shadow most of the time.

This I can say is spot on. While I have not done as much contrast and comps as SL, this is one thing that does stand out to me as well as one other detail. Its a huge detail, but one that jumps. I have never taken a shot of it...

 

[darthvaderv]

I've said it numerous times in private and discussed this with Thomas that the perfect ANH facemask is a combination of more than one authentic cast out there. Some have more details and structural differences than others but nothing is perfect. It's simplistic once you know what to look for.
It's also not wise to be dismissive towards the original TD(not those ultra cleaned casts) as it has some details that offer a further insight but that's not to say it is superior, just unique in it's own right as are other pieces. Lets not put too much stock into shortened tubes but the overall picture and that goes BOTH ways.

Personally whether it comes off as an agenda or whatever Thomas has made an effort to share which is more than what others do but I think for now the topic has been saturated on places like the Den and Thomas you can see people will draw their own conclusions. It would be an idea to meet up in person with someone as previously mentioned to get your point across better to support what is said which may give further clarity.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Personally, until further evidence of the piece emerges I am okay with the current placement for the TD on the UK mold lineage line. When more info and evidence becomes available, I'm sure it would be easy to make the necessary changes to the chart when the time comes, if needed. I just didn't agree with it being in a whole separate molding lineage.

Carsten, THIS was my point all along.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

And Paul, you are right about something. Thomas DOES deserve credit for trying to share. Despite the venomous nature of my posts, Thomas has played a huge role in keeping some of the predatory Vader makers, like SPFX, on a very short leash. Every single time Phil would call his stuff authentic, there was Thomas pointing to some flaw in his work, until eventually, Phil was banned from here.

I was going to PM that to him, but since everything else I have said has been out in the open, I felt giving him his credit should be as well. We will agree to disagree on a few points on his tree and that is that. No use in flogging that dead horse.

My apologies for my zealotry.

 

[SithLord]

Thanks, Qui. Well at least we can agree the TD is along the UK lineage, and that it is an ANH mask, but its exact origin in time as I've tried to discuss isn't known....I just suppose that it is early :angel. And I'll admit I'm a stubborn ass, hehe. So, onto another strange thing about the TD...

I'm fascinated by curvature....namely the curvature of the crown of the head, in addition to the neck, but the crown of the head is surprisingly consistent in the slight deviations in curvature among different castings. Clearly there was some asymmetry to Dave Prowse' head which came through in the sculpture Muir put on top of that, even with the buildup of clay to make room for Prowse' head to fit inside the mask. What I like to do is line up the rear views of masks, and after doing this for a few years, something last year stuck out in my mind, namely this strange almost layer look in the edge of the Paul Allen ESB, which I showed before at one point on TPD but didn't get into it in relation to the TD.

It could be anything, right? I know that as I think Carsten mentioned before it could just be separation of the gelcoat or something like that, but let's look more closely.

I knew I had seen it before, or at least something like it, on the TD. What is sort of funny about this is that this detail on the Paul Allen mask made me look more closely at the TD and that's when I more fully appreciated that there was a curvature difference there in relation to the thickness, but also that the thickness difference on the TD was on account of some kind of beige material spread flat along the surface in two distinct patches on either side of the mask toward the top half....roughly in these areas (the right one is harder to see from this angle but it is actually an even larger patch than the left one).

The funny thing is, the TD is thicker in these areas, in that the surfaces are "built up". Now, if you look at the SL ANH in those areas, it is actually flattened out a bit, and the deviation in curvature is more noticeable. I found this was also the case for the original screen ANH mask, so at least the SL reflected that. The SL is also thinner in those areas compared to the TD. Now keep in mind I'm talking about something that is on the surface, a patch of sorts that makes the surface thicker. But the end result is these patches actually round out the curvature of the mask in the rear, and on the TD those patches are cut through, as if they were actually larger and we are only seeing maybe three quarters of them. So they are not just some kind of repair, they were carefully put there by someone interested in making the rear of the mask more true in terms of the roundness. It is such a very subtle change that one couldn't really appreciate it at first, but after getting the SL I realized that they were there for a reason. So naturally I proceeded to go back and look for this more rounded profile on those rear areas and found it on the VP ANH, TM ESB, and DS 20th Century, but again not on the SL ANH.

Another interesting thing about the patches is that, unlike other parts of the surface of the mask that has brush lines going in different orientations, the patches have distinctive brush or sanding lines (whatever they may be) that go almost exclusively vertically up the side of the mask. In this way, I could look for those vertical lines on other castings (but I won't go into that here).

So what I'm showing below here is the rear of the PA ESB mask on the bottom image. The top image I put the TD ANH mask rear section on top of the PA ESB, at 100% opacity, and lined it up as best I could. Just let your eyes wander up and down between the images. The red brackets indicate roughly the extent of the patches on the TD on either side. Lower down on the mask going towards the neck it is quite a bit thinner.

Weird, huh?

Curvature matches, thickness on either side matches (for the most part), and the difference in thickness left vs right matches....namely the left is thinner up top than the right.

Now, the PA ESB mask rear photo isn't exactly great in terms of enlarging it for detail, but I did the best I could and tried to see if there was anything in the TD detail in that area that seemed to correspond. Here's a high mag view of the TD edge on the left side of the mask compared to the same area on the PA ESB....I've put red lines going between similar details that I thought might be easier to make out. It is much easier to do this in a 50% overlay and switch between the layers as I normally do, but whatever this will have to do.

I find it interestingly coincidental that the gelcoat on the PA ESB separates just where on the TD ANH there is a patch.

Now I won't say anything about what I think this means, I'm just showing it because it is one of the frick'in weird things about the TD ANH. Now before some of you jump on me again about this, please just look at your castings from the rear and see if there's anything like this.

Just to try to show the curvature difference, which is quite a challenge given the 3D shape of that area, here's a comparison of the Paul Allen ESB on the left, TD ANH in the middle, and SL ANH on the right in that top right area of the rear of the mask. The PA and TD show that rounded deviation in curvature, whereas the SL flattens out in that area.

I won't presuppose anything about this in regard to the TD but it is something I look for on different castings, among other things. One thing is for sure, it is one of many unique and distinct differences between the UK lineage and the US lineage. And in spite of any suggestion by some of you that it could just be an implication of the "father" idea, that is not my intent, and I don't think so but for other reasons I won't go into. But it still makes me wonder...and I thought it would be interesting to see what kind of feedback I get, positive or critical...

 

[SithLord]

Since the arguments have focused mainly on the TD ANH, and not really much else, for now here's a big version of the tree. Enjoy! Although this is still less than half the size of the original file...:eek

I hope it doesn't crash anyone's computer or something :lol

 

[SithLord]

A chat with someone recently brought to mind I should show this image again...one of my desktop images. It is my personal TD ANH copy with reconstructed tube ends, paired with the SL ANH dome.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

So, seriously, SL, you do know how these things are molded and cast right? The fact that you are finding "similarities" to the flashing and trim areas of the mask and making any conclusions from it is a bit surprising. On the PA Stunt picture it looked like the areas were separating... it could also be shadows or camera contrast distortion. The picture really isn't that great to make any conclusions from.

And the TM original picture is wrong. It never looked like that. That is vadermania's personal ESB copy with the original TM dome. The original TM face is ANH style with some ESB work done to it but still predominantly ANH. In that regard, the TM line is faulty, as you are showing a copy face reworked into ESB with the original dome in the original TM's spot.

 

[runnriottt]

SL.. I am stumped on the cheek. Maybe I am over looking it... I am sitting here as I type looking at the TD and the DS20thC.

The only thing that I see is a small curve on the lines. The 20th is cleaner, less organic if that makes any sense.

 

[sskunky]

I'm with Carsten on this.
I don't think you can compare castings from the casting edge. Every one will be different and everyone may contain similar bubbles, separation, lumps bumps you name it. Don't forget the process of Fiber Glassing is done by hand and never the same on two castings even if you try, so I think this evidence is non conclusive. It all boils down to how much gel coat was applied and glass matting etc. And it was done by hand. You can only compare the outside edge, anything inside of that is coincidental.
I'm sure the original modelmakers didn't care if each one was identically laid as long as the looked good from the front.

 

[sskunky]

Oh,
I forgot to add that the bigger picture is much better. I was beginning to go blind looking at the others.... :lol

 

[Too Much Garlic]

The Vadermonkey stunt v1 isn't from the DP DLX.

 

[SithLord]

So, seriously, SL, you do know how these things are molded and cast right? The fact that you are finding "similarities" to the flashing and trim areas of the mask and making any conclusions from it is a bit surprising. On the PA Stunt picture it looked like the areas were separating... it could also be shadows or camera contrast distortion. The picture really isn't that great to make any conclusions from.

It is surprising, but look at other castings in that area. I'm not saying the layer is there but the thickness appears to be, for whatever reason. Another example is that the neck on the SL and TD are similar on the bottom edge in areas, although the SL has added material like some kind of molding base edge that was trimmed along with the neck, but obviously that edge on the neck can be molded.

But in my post I am also talking about what is on the SURFACE, not just the rear edge.

And the TM original picture is wrong. It never looked like that. That is vadermania's personal ESB copy with the original TM dome. The original TM face is ANH style with some ESB work done to it but still predominantly ANH. In that regard, the TM line is faulty, as you are showing a copy face reworked into ESB with the original dome in the original TM's spot.

That photo is from TM's formal introduction of the TM ESB on TPD. So I put it in. I can easily replace it with the TM as TM got it. That doesn't make the lineage faulty, Carsten. Unless you are saying that those three helmets I put in the TM lineage did not come from the TM ESB?

The TM ESB helmet is ESB, it is reportedly from the ESB production, which I agree with. So how could it not be ESB? The dome is ESB, the mask has the neck extension we see on some ESB masks. So unless you have evidence that the TM ESB helmet came from ANH then it is along the ESB line, not the ANH line.

The TM mask is a copy of an ESB mask that was modified. So it is ESB. If it was a raw unmodified ANH mask that came from before ESB then I would put it up where the TD is, but it isn't.