A Darth Vader Collection and Lineage Thread....

Carsten I'd like to settle this C-scar issue because it keeps coming back.

You know the photo of the original ANH Vader helmet on the guy with the flannel shirt? (of which I own the original print btw)

That has the original paint on it, before the repaint. Everything about the paint on that mask matches what we see onscreen.

The SL ANH has a C-scar identical to that.
 
I won't argue with you about what the TM has or doesn't have because I can easily show how the TM and SL compares if you want me to?
Not up to me to want you to do anything.

You said the SL ANH doesn't have screen detail.
No, I said it was lacking details. Big difference. From what I've seen it's lacking key details. Sure, it has many of the smaller ones. So does a 20th C, so does the VP. My argument is that it doesn't have them all. My argument is also that the TM doesn't have them all. Nor the TD. All fine helmets, but you seem determined to put yours above all else, but very few of the details you show cannot also be found on other casts.

Yes the SL ANH has the exact same C-scar as the original ANH, in the Tantive IV scenes.
So, am I to assume you claim the SL matches this?
TantiveIV.jpg


You think in the Tantive IV scenes there is this big chunk of paint missing, there isn't, that's an effect of the lighting. It is much shallower than you think.
Really? An effect of lighting? That's almost amusing

That's VP ANH to show the area. The VP doesn't have the detail. It looks sort of like an upside down question mark, a big one covering most of the top cheek face. The detail is rearward of your bottom arrow occupying most of the center of that cheek area. I was hoping that you or anyone who considers themselves a Vader expert to tell me what kind of huge obvious detail is on that top surface but nobody seems able to. If they had an authentic casting in hand that wasn't cleaned up then they could.
Well, how was I to know that was the VP? I didn't see you state that. I don't even see anything resembling an upside down question mark on the picture of the original you posted. That has nothing to do obvious details, when you can't even begin to see the shapes you see in the casts - just because you see a "question mark" doesn't mean others will associate the shapes on the cast with that shape.

You are aware of these psychological issues with sight and mental perception, right? What do you see here? An old hag or a young woman or both?
lady.jpg


The only thing I could remotely see resembling an upside down question mark on the picture of the original you posted is highlighted in green in the bottom middle picture. Is this the feature you are so desperately trying to trump everyone with?
TantiveIV2.jpg

Or is it something else? If I can't even see what you are seeing on the picture of the original... then how am I to find what you see on anything else... especially not when you show a picture of something that doesn't even have it, making people waste their time looking for things to match what is seen in the picture. Nice form.

Yeah, sorry I'm not wasting my time with small details when larger details are clearly missing or softer than they should be.
 
No, I said it was lacking details. Big difference. From what I've seen it's lacking key details. Sure, it has many of the smaller ones. So does a 20th C, so does the VP.

The VP and 20th C have nothing like the details I showed on the SL above.

My argument is that it doesn't have them all. My argument is also that the TM doesn't have them all. Nor the TD. All fine helmets, but you seem determined to put yours above all else, but very few of the details you show cannot also be found on other casts.

Yes because of the paint the TD doesn't have some of those extremely fine details I showed on the SL, but I just wanted to show the extreme of what the SL has in terms of detail. I'm not putting the TD or the SL above anything, but the argument here stemmed from you wanting to make the TM an ANH casting just because it shares some details with ANH castings.

So, am I to assume you claim the SL matches this?
TantiveIV.jpg

Yes. Exactly.

Really? An effect of lighting? That's almost amusing

I'll try to illustrate later. But for now, here's the area on the cheek at different times when Vader is facing that direction...the angles are slightly different because of that, and so too are parts of the C-scar in terms of the apparent thickness...not the best example but something I had handy.

ANHVadTIVRcheeklightchb.jpg


Only the SL ANH has this exact C-scar. (and the DJ of course)

Well, how was I to know that was the VP? I didn't see you state that.

POST #192 of this thread:

How about a little test of the knowledge of the so-called experts. What major detail is seen on the top of the left cheek of the original ANH mask and original ESB masks?

TopcheekVad1.jpg


This is a VP ANH. It isn't there. I would like someone here who knows about authentic castings, a self-professed expert, to describe what the major detail is. It is a large and easily seen detail from above, and not microscopic, and it has a distinctive shape so it is easy to describe. For example, if someone else out there, anyone, has what they think is an authentic casting from ANH, and they claim it is directly from the ANH original, then they can easily tell me what that detail is, because I will be able to show them. Better yet, show me your authentic casting with that detail. And I will show you mine, both of them.

I don't even see anything resembling an upside down question mark on the picture of the original you posted.

That's because nothing you've seen has it. You know a lot about Vader and you seem to know something about details, but the point of this is that there is a heck of a lot that people still don't know until I show them.

That has nothing to do obvious details, when you can't even begin to see the shapes you see in the casts - just because you see a "question mark" doesn't mean others will associate the shapes on the cast with that shape.

They would never see it because onscreen that is all you can see of it.

You are aware of these psychological issues with sight and mental perception, right? What do you see here? An old hag or a young woman or both?
lady.jpg

You forget that I have a Ph.D. in neuroscience and brain development. That includes a thorough knowledge of perception and sensory systems. But in answer to your question I see a young woman, looking away as they usually do if I'm around. :lol

The only thing I could remotely see resembling an upside down question mark on the picture of the original you posted is highlighted in green in the bottom middle picture. Is this the feature you are so desperately trying to trump everyone with?
TantiveIV2.jpg

I'm not desparate and I'm not trying to trump anyone. If people are so smart about details and put me down when I try to show them, then I'm giving the so-called experts an opportunity to show me something for a change. Otherwise I'll just end up showing yet again a detail that people are oblivious to. You see, I study castings and every aspect, every single detail of them and compare them to the originals as best I can. So for someone to say that what I show is pointless and that I can't put the TD ANH where it is, well then show me what you (not you in particular but everyone) know better than I about authentic Vader castings? This is just one small example. And there is even a casting out there people can find the answer from yet they haven't yet.

But anyway, you have the top part of the question mark roughly correct but you actually drew it right side up in relation to the photo of the VP I showed originally. Since we are looking straight on at the screen mask, it would be the other way around. :)

Or is it something else? If I can't even see what you are seeing on the picture of the original... then how am I to find what you see on anything else... especially not when you show a picture of something that doesn't even have it, making people waste their time looking for things to match what is seen in the picture. Nice form.

I teach myself every day about how to find details like that from the original ANH mask seen onscreen and you did a pretty good job at finding at least part of it and drawing a line around it. I described a large curved shape on that cheek surface. If someone has an authentic ANH casting, that would be obvious to describe and draw. I showed the screen mask to show that it is there, first, because usually I show a detail on the SL or TD and people scoff at that. So, I'm trying a different approach.

So, I'm not trying to trump people, I'm trying to make a point about authenticity, and about lineage, and about how I study castings. Everyone is so keen to put me down about that. Yet when put to the task about describing details themselves, they are incapable of doing so. So then why should they be attacking me about my ability to study details and therefore my ability to put a mask or helmet in a particular place in the lineage?

Yeah, sorry I'm not wasting my time with small details when larger details are clearly missing or softer than they should be.

Such as?
 
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Connect the dots is not teaching anyone to see - it's teaching them to see what you see. Big difference. People saw rivers on Mars too. That's issues with how the eye sees and how the brain interprets.

So, I got the "leg" of the question mark wrong. Or... I got it wrong according to how you see the details on the top of the cheek.

But as I said. The TM isn't perfect. The TD isn't perfect. The SL isn't perfect. The VP isn't perfect. A mix of elements from all these helmets would generate a near perfect piece.

It is difficult to make out details on a grey surface, so I will have to wait until I get it sprayed black to see what I pick up of details.

Clearly I didn't go back to the first time you posted the picture, where you stated it was the VP, so sorry about that.

I could show the other half of that picture I posted of the original, but I think I'll sleep on it first.

Sorry chicks look away from you when you're around. Must be harsh.
 
Anyway, just another request since I posted the large version of the tree if anyone had any other comments about improvements/corrections/additions apart from the obvious ones that are being discussed? I'll try to make the corrections offered already on the weekend and repost it....
 
Yeah. The Gypsyboy helmets are copies of this helmet from Hollywoodprops (aka Larry Green Productions), which I always heard was a copy from a DP DLX, but it's impossible to tell from the look of this piece:

HollywoodProps.png
 
So, I got the "leg" of the question mark wrong. Or... I got it wrong according to how you see the details on the top of the cheek.

But as I said. The TM isn't perfect. The TD isn't perfect. The SL isn't perfect. The VP isn't perfect. A mix of elements from all these helmets would generate a near perfect piece.

Well, yes, although I think of it more as just that the TD, SL and TM came from the original ANH mask at different times. That doesn't make one better than the other. If the TD is earlier or later than the TM, who knows, each mask has its own strengths.

It is difficult to make out details on a grey surface, so I will have to wait until I get it sprayed black to see what I pick up of details.

Spray what black? You don't have to spray it black to see it...

Clearly I didn't go back to the first time you posted the picture, where you stated it was the VP, so sorry about that.

No problemo, everything's cool. :cool

I could show the other half of that picture I posted of the original, but I think I'll sleep on it first.

Sorry chicks look away from you when you're around. Must be harsh.


Ya, their loss. :lol

:confused

Anyway, back to the cheek curve....it is more like this...

TantiveIV2corr.jpg



Cool thanks for the info on the Gypsyboy....
 
Anyway, just another request since I posted the large version of the tree if anyone had any other comments about improvements/corrections/additions apart from the obvious ones that are being discussed? I'll try to make the corrections offered already on the weekend and repost it....

Why are you asking for tacit approval? Just because I stepped back does not mean I approve of your tree over Carsten's. Put yours up there.

As far as that "question mark" thing, even after you drawing it, I do not see it. That is just a confusing pic.
 
Yeah. The Gypsyboy helmets are copies of this helmet from Hollywoodprops (aka Larry Green Productions), which I always heard was a copy from a DP DLX, but it's impossible to tell from the look of this piece:

HollywoodProps.png

Well, here it is, allegedly, in kit form (click to enlarge):



If you zoom in, you'll see the subtleties of the shape. Don't know about you, but I see no resemblance whatsoever to a DP DLX. It's probably confused for a DP DLX due to the dome mounting system similarity.
 
Another example of lighting affecting the look of the C-scar....:sleep

Vadercheekfrlighting.jpg


and another comparison...

Vadercheekfrlighting2.jpg


The red vertical line indicates just how vertical and straight that portion of the C-scar is...so it isn't actually a C, it is more of an "L". Only the SL and DJ have that kind of L-scar.
 
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Why are you asking for tacit approval? Just because I stepped back does not mean I approve of your tree over Carsten's. Put yours up there.

As far as that "question mark" thing, even after you drawing it, I do not see it. That is just a confusing pic.


Did I ask you?


At the beginning of this thread someone asked about a tree, so I made one. Now I'm asking for feedback on the version we have now. You don't like the tree. We know.

I'm not asking for approval, I'm asking for input. There's a difference, Qui. I don't need anyone's approval to make a lineage or show it.

All you do is bait me with your negative comments.
 
Did I ask you?


At the beginning of this thread someone asked about a tree, so I made one. Now I'm asking for feedback on the version we have now. You don't like the tree. We know.

I'm not asking for approval, I'm asking for input. There's a difference, Qui. I don't need anyone's approval to make a lineage or show it.

All you do is bait me with your negative comments.
And yet only you see them as negative.

You asked this
Anyway, just another request since I posted the large version of the tree if anyone had any other comments about improvements/corrections/additions apart from the obvious ones that are being discussed? I'll try to make the corrections offered already on the weekend and repost it....
How is that not asking for approval? You do not really want input, Thomas. Carsten has given you the best input you are going to get, but you will not listen.
 
You asked this
Quote:
Anyway, just another request since I posted the large version of the tree if anyone had any other comments about improvements/corrections/additions apart from the obvious ones that are being discussed? I'll try to make the corrections offered already on the weekend and repost it....
How is that not asking for approval? You do not really want input, Thomas. Carsten has given you the best input you are going to get, but you will not listen.


Comment for improvement......is that approval?

Comment for any corrections....is that approval?

Comment for additions....is that approval?

If I wanted the approval of anyone I would ask for approval, Qui. I'm asking for any corrections or additions. That is not the same as approval.

If I wanted approval I would be asking for commendations, words of favor, but I am asking for the opposite. I am assuming there are errors and I want people to provide improvements, corrections or additions or forever hold their peace.

Come on, English isn't that hard to understand.

Carsten and I are discussing the placement of the TD and whether the TM is an ANH or not. If you agree with him then fine. But if his input is the "best I'm going to get", then why do we need your input?

And what exactly makes you qualified to say that Carsten's input is the best? You offer nothing as usual to support what he says or to refute what I SHOW.

PROVIDE CONSTRUCTIVE INPUT OR STOP BAITING.

What do you have to offer Qui to this discussion apart from saying Carsten is right?
 
Now, I was able to compare a TD copy I have with an SL copy, something I didn't really do before, but was helpful because both are made of the same material and so I didn't have the problem of reflectivity of the black paint of the TD, or the funky color of the SL. Anyway, I was looking at the back part of the masks again, and finally got it.

The rear of the SL ANH going around the circumference of the back of the mask is fairly uniform in terms of being "cut". For example if you look at the mask from the side, the rear edge is fairly straight going around, even down to the base rear corners. Of course at the neck there is that curvature, but even looking from the side it is fairly straight.

On the TD ANH, however, it isn't straight. There are places where the undercut extends out further than on the SL. This was something I noticed before but didn't look so much at how they were related.

Looking at the right side of the mask from the side, I noticed an indentation about 4mm wide so fairly large on the rear side of the SL, and its rear section is cut through by the trimming on the SL. Now, the SL has in that area part of the ground left over, so the actual endpoint of that rear edge is clear (not cut in the casting).

The TD has that indentation as well, except because the TD undercut extends further back than on the SL, that indentation is of course complete...it isn't missing the rear part....as the undercut extends well back from that indentation.

So why is this so important?

I've compared the SL mask to the original ANH mask, and that rear edge in terms of how it is shaped on the SL is identical in every way with the screen mask.

So then how could the TD have more material going back further, a rounded rear edge in that area (not straight viewed from the side), and a complete indentation? In fact if you look at the SL and TD side by side, it is pretty obvious that the additional undercut where it curves out was cut flat and that led to the straighter shape we see on the SL, and also on the screen mask. Not only that, but just at the right corner of the rear of the SL mask has what looks like some reworking to make it more of a corner and less of a curve, the curve left over from the time it had more material back there (the curve that matches the TD in that area).

So what does this mean? There are two possibilities. One is that the TD ANH did not come from a mold taken off the original ANH mask, because if the original mask is missing that extra rear section, then how could it be on the TD? But the grill in the mouth of the TD refutes that possibility.

The other possibility therefore is that the TD is cast from a mold taken from the original ANH mask, but before that area was trimmed on the mask, and therefore the mold for the TD (not necessarily the TD itself) would have come from the original ANH mask before it was trimmed in the rear. Now, the trimmed version of the original ANH mask has the original paint on it, so it would have to have been trimmed during the ANH production.

Along with the other early details I've shown, this is really the proof I had been looking for that the TD is from the ANH mask at an early stage of its life...

I didn't have time to put together illustrations of what I mean but I'll try to do that sometime, now to bed...
 
OH MY GOD... where do you come up with this ****? You must be very fortunate to have such excellent 360 degree reference of the ANH original to make such claims. Well, I'm gonna do something that I often ask of others: *put up or shut up* and I'll leave it to people to decide for themselves.

It was dubbed a C-scar for the very simple reason that it resembled a C. On the repainted original the C scar diminished and became less visible, so sure, you can call it an L-scar on that one.
TantiveIV3.jpg


Well, there are photographic distortion inherent in these following pictures - It's not easy to match a photograph to a screen capture. It's inherently stupid to try to match things completely. But the scar lines up and the ridges on the edges of the teeth matches between the TM and the Tantive IV look. It isn't the perfect angle and I didn't rotate the pictures enough to match, but it should be good enough to get the point across. These are details NO ONE show, concentrating only on the minor scuffs and dents here and there trying to prove a point of superiority. Completely missing the bigger picture. It took a lot of considering and discussion with several people about whether to show this. This is the level of detail people fear being shown... and for good reason.
TMvsOriginal2.jpg

The dome in the pictures is a JRX ANH, so please disregard that - the face is a direct cast off the original TM face, so yup, that is CLEARLY an ESB face, I get it. :rolleyes The TM ESB face often shown is a JRX reworked TM facemask back into ESB specs, which is why the demonstration TM picture shown as the original TM is deceptive.
 
Carsten, that does cast the TM in a whole new light. It also gives a bit of credence to every real mask sharing the same details. Does this also lead one to believe that all of the sequel helmets flow from the original UK mold?

Myopia...that is all that comes to mind right now. Thanks to whoever you talked to regarding the TM for sharing this detail.

Thomas, I have tried being constructive. Others have tried being constructive, but because the views are contrary to yours, you see them as an assault. I have told you time and again that they are not. They were constructive until you got onto your soap-box and started patting yourself on the back for spending money to buy stuff. I have said you offer up a good blanket of protection to many of the Vader buyers with your access to the "good stuff". This does not make you an expert, and apparently, even you can miss details.

That detail pic, Carsten...wow.
 
Does this also lead one to believe that all of the sequel helmets flow from the original UK mold?
Not all and they may not link back directly to the master we know as the UK mold. There may be missing links between that mold and the casts we discuss - that is still the big unknown that we debate about. At least the funeral pyre helmet in RotJ seems to be of the US mold derivative - seemingly pieces made for tour and promotion (ESB Poster helmet).
 
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