A Darth Vader Collection and Lineage Thread....

[SithLord]

I'm with Carsten on this.
I don't think you can compare castings from the casting edge. Every one will be different and everyone may contain similar bubbles, separation, lumps bumps you name it.

That's the point, they are not different in those areas in terms of curvature, and in terms of thickness the TD, TM and Paul Allen ESB are remarkably similar. It is there for anyone to see, regardless of what kind of variability you get in the casting process.

Don't forget the process of Fiber Glassing is done by hand and never the same on two castings even if you try, so I think this evidence is non conclusive. It all boils down to how much gel coat was applied and glass matting etc. And it was done by hand. You can only compare the outside edge, anything inside of that is coincidental.
I'm sure the original modelmakers didn't care if each one was identically laid as long as the looked good from the front.

If you have a raised part of a casting, like a hump or hill, higher than the surface surrounding it, and you fill that with resin and fiberglass, then you cut that, it will be thicker the same way each time...it is the OUTSIDE thickness of that area that matters, not the inside, not inside of the fiberglass. Because the lay of resin and fiberglass tends to be uniform on the inside except in areas like the tusk tubes (depending on whether the person wanted to fill those areas or not).

 

[SithLord]

The Vadermonkey stunt v1 isn't from the DP DLX.

Ok, what did Mike make his first stunt helmet from? Not the one based on the TM, the one before that....

 

[SithLord]

SL.. I am stumped on the cheek. Maybe I am over looking it... I am sitting here as I type looking at the TD and the DS20thC.

The only thing that I see is a small curve on the lines. The 20th is cleaner, less organic if that makes any sense.

No, I mean the top surface of the cheek, not the edge. Your particular TD may not show that, although it depends on how it was prepped for finishing...

 

[CSMacLaren]

At least one of the Gypsyboy helmets come from a Hollywood Props base, not a Rubie's.

 

[SithLord]

Thanks, Mac. Yes just because I posted a larger version by no stretch means that it is a final version.


Here's the right side rear top edge of the TD mask compared to the PA at higher resolution. The red bars indicate roughly where the patch begins and ends (just on the outside of the boundary so you can see where it goes from top to bottom from thin to thick and then back to thin again). I also point out a detail in the red brackets that might be similar although of course it is limited by resolution and so I could just be seeing things. But the main points are the changes in thickness and the deviations in curvature.

Normally I wouldn't really care about this except that it is strange that in this area there is a patch on the TD. If it is real or not I don't know, but it is just another small example of what I study among castings.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

That photo is from TM's formal introduction of the TM ESB on TPD. So I put it in. I can easily replace it with the TM as TM got it. That doesn't make the lineage faulty, Carsten. Unless you are saying that those three helmets I put in the TM lineage did not come from the TM ESB?

The TM ESB helmet is ESB, it is reportedly from the ESB production, which I agree with. So how could it not be ESB? The dome is ESB, the mask has the neck extension we see on some ESB masks. So unless you have evidence that the TM ESB helmet came from ANH then it is along the ESB line, not the ANH line.

Yes, and the formal introduction was the original TM dome with a JRX ESB modified facemask, so NOT the fully original TM.

I'm not questioning it's placement, I'm questioning the photo you are showing as the TM original, which it is simply NOT.

So I guess the small ANH chin vent and Tantive IV surface details preserved in the TM facemask cast negates it as being ANH style? WTF? It didn't come with a dome ring, larger chin vent or many of the other ESB details, so regardless of how you are pushing the labeling, it is not the right picture and the facemask is NOT ESB style, unless you'll call the VP ESB or RotJ style as well. And since we have heard time and time again that the masks came out ANH style and was altered into their respective final look... labeling it as anything other than ANH style when clearly not all ESB finishing features were done to the cast, but still HUGE amounts of ANH specific details were left intact, is just flat out weird.

:confused :confused

 

[SithLord]

So I guess the small ANH chin vent and Tantive IV surface details preserved in the TM facemask cast negates it as being ANH style? WTF? It didn't come with a dome ring, larger chin vent or many of the other ESB details, so regardless of how you are pushing the labeling, it is not the right picture and the facemask is NOT ESB style, unless you'll call the VP ESB or RotJ style as well. And since we have heard time and time again that the masks came out ANH style and was altered into their respective final look... labeling it as anything other than ANH style when clearly not all ESB finishing features were done to the cast, but still HUGE amounts of ANH specific details were left intact, is just flat out weird.

:confused :confused

Does TM call it the TM ANH? No.

It is an ESB helmet Carsten.

Why do we call the BM ROTJ a ROTJ and not the BM ANH?

The TM ESB helmet came as a complete helmet and clearly as ESB and from ESB. Just because it has the chin vent doesn't make it an ANH mask. It's pattern came from a mold taken from an ANH mask, but that doesn't make it ANH.

If the TD ANH mask came from ESB it would be an ESB mask. It doesn't matter if it is a template or unfinished or without the chin vent cut out. It is certainly ANH-style or type, but this tree is not a lineage of TYPE, it is a lineage of RELATIONSHIP, Carsten.

The VP is known to have been combined with a ROTJ dome, but the TM wasn't combined from random castings, ok?

The TM mask is ANH-like, ANH-style, but it isn't an ANH mask if it came from ESB, if it came from an ESB mold, if it came from the ESB production. THAT is why it goes in the lineage where it is.

So what do you want to do? Separate the TM mask from its dome and call it TM ANH mask and TM ESB dome and then what? Where do the mask and dome go in the lineage? The ESB dome is from ESB, its an original, at least TM and I both think so. The mask then? I suppose you want to put it from mold taken from the ANH directly? That isn't the case. There is no evidence that the original ANH mask was permanently modified so there is no basis for the TM mask to have come from the original ANH, but rather through an intermediate made as the same generation as an ESB mask. I show clearly in the lineage that ALL ESB masks come from the original ANH. By your logic they are ALL ANH. And that makes completely no sense. By your logic the BM ROTJ is ANH. So your tree would look like this...the original ANH and EVERYTHING coming directly off of it. That isn't how a lineage tree is put together because it is supposed to show the relationships between castings, not their ORIGINAL source with just one branch.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Thomas, seriously... what?

I keep telling you I don't argue about the placement, I argue about the picture you are using as that is NOT the original TM helmet.

Whether the facemasks all start out ANH style and is later converted has nothing to do with where I would place them on the tree. And you have NO proof that the neck extension was a permanent addition to the source facemask that was molded. You keep arguing that the filling and additions were permanent. They clearly weren't, otherwise you'd have the same chin vent style filling on the SL as well AND on the original ANH mask. It was removable, and that is fact, so don't confuse the subject by arguing about permanent additions to anything prior to molding. Everything we've seen shows it was removable, so you are arguing about something that simply didn't happen.

All fiberglass pieces needs trimming. The fact that you are bothering with cast thickness and edges that would all have been trimmed is just beyond me. Every cast comes with flashing or a lip that has to be removed. Name one moldmaker and caster working with open ended molds that doesn't do that.

You are making assumptions based on details you are clearly misinterpreting and I'm beginning to wonder how much knowledge you actually have about moldmaking and casting, 'cause you are making claims that simply doesn't make sense. We've had several moldmakers and casters in this thread and several other threads openly dispute some of your claims about moldmaking.

So, I will state this as very clearly as I can and then I think I'll simply remove myself from this thread as it is simply not worth arguing this with you.

Several sources have confirmed that all original facemasks start out as ANH style and then work is done to it. Regardless of whether they were cast for ESB or RotJ or tours, they all started out as ANH style and work was then done to them to turn them into a specific other look. That's pretty much a fact that nearly all Vader enthusiasts now acknowledge.

You call the SL ANH... why? Just because it comes with an ANH dome? The facemask means nothing? It wasn't cast during ANH, so why are you calling it an ANH? By your logic it should be something else. You keep saying the TD didn't come with a neck extension and wasn't cast with lenses... but you still call it ANH? Why? By your logic the style of the facemask doesn't matter. The TM facemask has had some ESB detailing and light sanding done to it, but it still retains pretty amazing ANH specific details, but it is clear to anyone that the mold lineage it came from has direct links to the screen used ANH Tantive IV look. Are you disputing that it has those details? Are you saying it is cleaned up, had a dome mount added, sanded, filled, altered into 100% ESB look? Is that what you are saying? It's certainly what you are hinting at... at least it sounds like that. If not, then you are not making your point clear enough. The VP facemask is also ANH style... but because it was cast later it can't be ANH style? WHAT? And when they first arrived in the community, very few knew that it came with a neck extension as well.

I'm sorry... this is just getting beyond ridiculous arguing about this. I don't argue placement, but to call the TM facemask an ESB, is like calling a Rubies Supreme accurate. It's that level of weird.

 

[Vadermonkey]

Thomas, my stunt V1 dome was based from the DPD but the faceplate/neck form itself was from the Rubies statue face.

 

[SithLord]

Thomas, seriously... what?

I keep telling you I don't argue about the placement, I argue about the picture you are using as that is NOT the original TM helmet.

Oh? Really? Huh. As I mentioned that is easy to replace with one that TM took of the helmet before it was stripped.

Whether the facemasks all start out ANH style and is later converted has nothing to do with where I would place them on the tree. And you have NO proof that the neck extension was a permanent addition to the source facemask that was molded.

Permanent or not, it is only seen in ESB. And the TD doesn't have it.

You keep arguing that the filling and additions were permanent. They clearly weren't, otherwise you'd have the same chin vent style filling on the SL as well AND on the original ANH mask.

No I meant the eyebrow extensions on the TM. You don't see those carried over to any other castings. I didn't argue at all that filled chin vent on the original ANH was permanent.

It was removable, and that is fact, so don't confuse the subject by arguing about permanent additions to anything prior to molding. Everything we've seen shows it was removable, so you are arguing about something that simply didn't happen.

The interior of the eye sockets, the sides of the nosebridge, the inside of the gaps between the teeth, and the eyebrows all received refining attention on the father of the TM. You cannot reverse those kinds of changes, Carsten. That's what I meant.

All fiberglass pieces needs trimming. The fact that you are bothering with cast thickness and edges that would all have been trimmed is just beyond me. Every cast comes with flashing or a lip that has to be removed. Name one moldmaker and caster working with open ended molds that doesn't do that.

Look at your TM and tell me it is different then. It isn't. In fact you can see the similarity in terms of thickness and you can see the vertical patches on the TM clearly with the vertical sanding lines. I know about lips and I know about grounds. But it doesn't matter because where the edge meets the ground, and you cut it, if the casting is thicker at that point because the mold impression is slightly deeper, because of a raised area on the original mask, then you will see those differences in thickness.

You are making assumptions based on details you are clearly misinterpreting and I'm beginning to wonder how much knowledge you actually have about moldmaking and casting, 'cause you are making claims that simply doesn't make sense. We've had several moldmakers and casters in this thread and several other threads openly dispute some of your claims about moldmaking.

I know enough. And the castings SHOW it. The similarities are undeniable. And you can look at your VP and even 20th C castings and see some of that asymmetry and divergence in thickness remaining. It is telltale. And those castings are from completely different people/molds. So your argument is moot.

So, I will state this as very clearly as I can and then I think I'll simply remove myself from this thread as it is simply not worth arguing this with you.

Several sources have confirmed that all original facemasks start out as ANH style and then work is done to it.

That doesn't mean they come from an ANH mold Carsten. You yourself say "START OUT AS ANH STYLE". That means you cannot say "START OUT FROM AN ANH MOLD". That implies a mold from the ANH production.

Regardless of whether they were cast for ESB or RotJ or tours, they all started out as ANH style and work was then done to them to turn them into a specific other look. That's pretty much a fact that nearly all Vader enthusiasts now acknowledge.

So? That doesn't change what a lineage is. It is about relationships and the TM ESB isn't from ANH! It isn't from an ANH mold! It is from a mold probably taken during ESB of an ANH template, itself probably also not even from ANH! It has ANH features, if you saw it by itself it would clearly be taken for an ANH mask. But it came from ESB and came with an original ESB dome. So? The practical definition of what a helmet is is based on what movie it is from, Carsten, and that is how the lineage is put together, not based on the grandfather or great-grandfather of a casting. Otherwise why have a tree at all if you are just going to make the simplistic distinction that all masks come from ANH? We knew that already for, what, maybe 10 years ever since Chris King made that deduction based on the 20th Century tabs.

You call the SL ANH... why? Just because it comes with an ANH dome?

No because it came from a mold taken off the original ANH and that mold was itself made during or shortly after the ANH production. And if that is not an ANH helmet what the heck is? It doesn't have a neck extension, it doesn't have smaller mouth triangle, it doesn't have refinement work done to it, and it didn't come with an ESB dome. How obvious can it be?

The facemask means nothing?

Of course it means something, but the SL ANH came from an ILM mold that was complete, with the helmet and dome, as a pair, taken from the original ANH helmet. So it is ANH.

It wasn't cast during ANH, so why are you calling it an ANH?

Because it came directly from the original ANH helmet BEFORE ESB, NOT DURING ESB. Was the TM ESB made BEFORE ESB????

[\QUOTE]
By your logic it should be something else. You keep saying the TD didn't come with a neck extension and wasn't cast with lenses... but you still call it ANH? Why? By your logic the style of the facemask doesn't matter.[/QUOTE]

So? The original ANH didn't have a neck extension either. And the TD if was cast from the original ANH mask at some point, obviously was cast when the lenses were either removed or before the lenses were put in, but probably the latter since I think Brian sculpted lenses into the original sculpture.

And you are oversimplifying my logic. The criteria for being ANH are obviously having all the features of ANH and also being cast from an ANH casting and an additional possible criterion but not absolutely necessary is that it was cast during ANH or the mold came from ANH.

You can call the TM an ANH all day long if you like, but for the purpose of showing relationships in the lineage, it isn't an ANH mask. If you want to just lump together all the ANH masks, no matter what they came from, then please by all means go ahead and make your tree like that. But that doesn't show RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN CASTINGS, all it shows is that this looks like ANH and this looks like ESB and this looks like ROTJ, but that doesn't tell us anything about relationships. In a tree like this, the branches, branch points, and even technically speaking the branch lengths can all mean something.

The TM facemask has had some ESB detailing and light sanding done to it, but it still retains pretty amazing ANH specific details, but it is clear to anyone that the mold lineage it came from has direct links to the screen used ANH Tantive IV look. Are you disputing that it has those details?

Of course not, the TM has some beautiful gorgeous sumptuous details, undeniably so. And some clearly ANH-specific. But Carsten, what about the Paul Allen ESB mask? Or the hero ESB mask? They have ANH-specific details as well. So are they ANH masks? By your logic they are. So what's then the point of having a tree? What's then the point of having ANH vs ESB vs ROTJ masks? You are diluting the categorization for the purpose of wanting the TM to be an ANH only mask and it simply is not BECAUSE IT CAME FROM ESB WITH AN ESB DOME and seems also to have been possibly some kind of project to refine the ANH look. It is therefore ESB. If the TD ANH was also some kind of project to alter the ANH mask, could it have been done during ESB? Sure that is possible, but then it would have signs of being from ESB, being like the TM, being like the hero ESB, but that isn't the case. If it has details earlier than the SL ANH, then how could it be an ESB project? If I find out it is, then I would call it an ESB mask. You think an auction house would call the TM ESB an helmet from ANH? No, they would say it is from ESB. Do you think collectors care that it is "ANH-like"? No, they care where it comes from, from ESB. That it IS ESB.

Are you saying it is cleaned up, had a dome mount added, sanded, filled, altered into 100% ESB look? Is that what you are saying?

No, but it is from ESB and clearly could have been some kind of ESB project. Unless you think all that was done after ESB? The ESB originals, Carsten, have the mounting rings added and chin vents cut out. By your logic they then are still ANH, which makes no sense.

It's certainly what you are hinting at... at least it sounds like that. If not, then you are not making your point clear enough. The VP facemask is also ANH style... but because it was cast later it can't be ANH style? WHAT? And when they first arrived in the community, very few knew that it came with a neck extension as well.

It is ANH style, but it isn't from ANH. It came later for sure. Certainly its grandfather or great grandfather could have been ANH, but do we know when exactly it was cast? I'm willing to call it the VP ANH, because we DON'T know when it was made, just as I call the TD ANH an ANH but also because of other reasons I've gone into here. But the TM ESB source is at least as well as we can gather at this point, clear. Sure there's more work to be done about sourcing it exactly, but I'm reasonably confident about saying it is from ESB and that is a compliment to the casting. I bid on the TM ESB and it wasn't because it was an ANH casting, Carsten, I bid on it because I knew it was either original or directly from an original ESB.

I'm sorry... this is just getting beyond ridiculous arguing about this. I don't argue placement, but to call the TM facemask an ESB, is like calling a Rubies Supreme accurate. It's that level of weird.

No it isn't, it makes perfect sense. If it came from ESB it is ESB, just as the Paul Allen ESB is ESB. We don't say the Paul Allen ESB is the Paul Allen ANH just because the mask looks like ANH?

 

[SithLord]

Thomas, my stunt V1 dome was based from the DPD but the faceplate/neck form itself was from the Rubies statue face.

Thanks Mike for chiming in and clarifying that. You certainly made it look much better than either of those sources.

I suppose I should probably also put the Rubies statue helmet up on the lineage as well....

But also if I had a front view I could put your new stunt helmet based on the TM in the lineage...

 

[stormtrooperguy]

Don't forget the process of Fiber Glassing is done by hand and never the same on two castings even if you try, so I think this evidence is non conclusive. It

Even beyond edge detail, all it would take would be a bit of pressure, a slightly misaligned shell, or any number of other things to result in subtly different casts.

While I'm not even amateur compared to the folks that made the originals, I've seen variations in even simple 2 part block mold castings... having the clamping straps a few inches off can cause a slight warp someplace else.

 

[SithLord]

Even beyond edge detail, all it would take would be a bit of pressure, a slightly misaligned shell, or any number of other things to result in subtly different casts.

While I'm not even amateur compared to the folks that made the originals, I've seen variations in even simple 2 part block mold castings... having the clamping straps a few inches off can cause a slight warp someplace else.

Sure, absolutely, that can happen. But you don't see that on Vader masks, at least not authentic ones. Otherwise you would see also deviations in the shape of the crown of the head, of where Dave Prowse' temples were, etc., and you don't. Sure if the entire casting came out of the mold wrong, there can be for example greater overall width in the casting, or the rear part of the side of the faces pulled inward or outward more, but at least castings I've received do not show deviations in curvature on the scale I show here. If one did, that wouldn't discount the trend.

And if the castings were so different in those areas on account of casting flaws, I wouldn't even compare the rear edges or rear profiles to begin with.

I've compared the neck profiles on the TD, SL, TM, 20th C, and VP and the similarities are astonishing. You would think people would trim their castings differently, but they didn't. Where the neck bends around the rear can vary slightly in curvature, but that isn't the area I'm talking about.

I have a casting in my collection with a clear dimple in it that I know is not on the original. That would arise from, for example, having a thin silicone mold and there being premature release in that area from the mold. But even then it is really obvious to see that kind of fault. If it was a fault on account of how the casting came out of the mold, then the original ANH had that fault and why wasn't it then propagated down through all the other castings in the lineage? And it isn't just one side, it is on both sides of the top edge implying that it isn't just an anomaly of a pull in one place. Take away the filler material on the TD and you would have the same curvature as the SL or the original...that same flattened area on each side in the rear.

 

[Vadermonkey]

Thanks Mike for chiming in and clarifying that. You certainly made it look much better than either of those sources.

I suppose I should probably also put the Rubies statue helmet up on the lineage as well....

But also if I had a front view I could put your new stunt helmet based on the TM in the lineage...

Yes the Rubies statue might as well be added also.

As for my 'definitive' stunt helmet project, it is still on a shelf while I finish some projects I have going for others but I hope to have it finished within the next few months.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Yup... The ESB helmets started out ANH style and was then converted. Since the TM facemask wasn't converted fully into ESB it retains a large number of ANH specific details outnumbering the ESB specific work done to it, so yes, I call it ANH style, because it doesn't have the defining features that would make it ESB style, like dome mount, softening and filling of the features and larger chin vent. The dome is 100% ESB!

You confuse style with production. I'm not talking production here. And you are not showing the original TM facemask in that picture and that imo is misrepresenting the TM original.

Personally, I won't go into the debate about the TD. I understand your reasons for not stripping it of paint as is fairly likely it may be original paintwork and is well worth preserving... but I know what paint can do, even seemingly thin layers of paint... and what it does is hiding what lies beneath. The TM is a PERFECT example of that - sure... it was painted with thick layers of paint... sure. Hell... lots of people argued that it was a soft cast and lacked original details. Well guess what... it was all under the paint. Unless the paint is removed you really have no clue what was done to the cast... and if you think professionals would do patchwork as visible as some Vader helmet vendors are doing, then you are sadly mistaken. Filling and repair work can be very well hidden under the paint - just check any restoration project or car repair workshop where any visible fix is considered poor workmanship.

I am not asking you to remove the paint. All I'm saying is that you are making conclusion you simply cannot make about that cast.

I am open to the possibility that the original ANH wasn't fitted with a neck extension when molded for what we call the UK mold and that it was added later to a cast from that mold. Sure, it's a possibility. It is also a possibility that the ANH helmet DID have the neck extension added to the mask for the UK mold and then it was removed after the molding was done. I'm open to the possibilities. Are you?

It simply doesn't make sense that the TD came from a mold without lenses. As I've explained before - the mold had to have something there at the lens area, either lens impressions or a flat area to close the open eye socket in the mold. Everyone molds helmets like that from troopers to Vader and the area is simply trimmed later. Show me one moldmaker who doesn't do that.

And what I've seen of the SL it is lacking a whole lot of production seen detail, so I'm still wondering why it could have come from a mold made before the end of production, when the original helmet is seen at the beginning of the tours with those same production seen details. Another thing that doesn't make sense.

I hate to argue this, 'cause it just seems like I'm slamming all these pieces. I'm simply not. They are cool pieces. It's just some of the claims attached to them that rubs me the wrong way. I'm not saying the TM is flawless... why should I? It's a nice ANH style mask with some ESB style work done to it. It's not perfect They all have flaws and they all lack that perfect 100% Tantive look. They are close... the closest we've seen yet... but I'm not attached to the casts... I'm attached to the look. I only have so much money, so I don't have a huge collection of Vader helmets, but it would be nice to have them all... just for their uniqueness and their individual features, strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Carsten man, sometimes...you are my hero. You have eloquently put my "arguments" in much better words.

 

[SithLord]

Personally, I won't go into the debate about the TD. I understand your reasons for not stripping it of paint as is fairly likely it may be original paintwork and is well worth preserving... but I know what paint can do, even seemingly thin layers of paint... and what it does is hiding what lies beneath. The TM is a PERFECT example of that - sure... it was painted with thick layers of paint... sure. Hell... lots of people argued that it was a soft cast and lacked original details. Well guess what... it was all under the paint. Unless the paint is removed you really have no clue what was done to the cast... and if you think professionals would do patchwork as visible as some Vader helmet vendors are doing, then you are sadly mistaken. Filling and repair work can be very well hidden under the paint - just check any restoration project or car repair workshop where any visible fix is considered poor workmanship.

Remember the photo I showed on TPD of the TM tab end next to the TD....the painted TD...next to the stripped TM casting copy? The paint layers on the TD are really thin, nothing like what we saw on the TM.

I am open to the possibility that the original ANH wasn't fitted with a neck extension when molded for what we call the UK mold and that it was added later to a cast from that mold. Sure, it's a possibility. It is also a possibility that the ANH helmet DID have the neck extension added to the mask for the UK mold and then it was removed after the molding was done. I'm open to the possibilities. Are you?

Yes, but then the UK mold was made later, perhaps closer to ESB. But given what we (I) know about the SL that doesn't seem likely.

It simply doesn't make sense that the TD came from a mold without lenses. As I've explained before - the mold had to have something there at the lens area, either lens impressions or a flat area to close the open eye socket in the mold. Everyone molds helmets like that from troopers to Vader and the area is simply trimmed later. Show me one moldmaker who doesn't do that.

Well by "without lenses" I mean without the original lenses, or lenses as would fit in place in the eye sockets. Probably yes you are right there was some kind of filler there.

Incidentally, there is something I never really talked about before, although I mentioned it once, about the "lenses" that are on the TD right now. They are these thick black plastic lenses, and they are trimmed extremely well, fitting the eye sockets nicely with a bit of overlap beyond the edges of the inside of the eyes. But more than that, the curvature, especially of Vader's right eye, is remarkably like the curvature of the original lenses....not in terms of the edge curvature which is quite round but overall. If someone was just covering up the eyes to make a mold from the TD, why would they bother to make lenses with such curvature? I have no idea when the lenses were put on.

Incidentally, that seam on the rear of the mask, that we also see on the TM....which would be the dividing seam for when the mask was a full head and there would then have been front and rear mold halves. That seam is at a diagonal, yet if cut at the seam, the mask, if sitting face up, would sit with the face leaning forward instead of straight up, so the back of the mask was trimmed so that it would sit with the face straight up, which makes sense in terms of molding as you want the rear of the mask sitting flat against the base or ground. Just a bit of trivia. I still wonder what that full head casting was from, because it wasn't original but it had the seam in the same place.

And what I've seen of the SL it is lacking a whole lot of production seen detail, so I'm still wondering why it could have come from a mold made before the end of production, when the original helmet is seen at the beginning of the tours with those same production seen details. Another thing that doesn't make sense.

Oh? What have you seen of the SL? Apparently not enough. :sleep It has plenty of detail...which I've shown before...an example below...

Every little bump at the point where the tooth meets the mouth, the twin points as I call them, and the curved nicks on the side of the tooth, all at a resolution never before seen even on the best image of the original ANH, until the SL appeared.

And you have to remember, the SL came from a mold taken from before the repaint of the original, and therefore before the original made it to DP studios, and before the Chronicles photoshoot. How do I know? Because you can see paint flaws in the neck of the original that are gone by the time of the Corbis photos. Maybe I'll try to show an example of that from the SL, namely of paint flaw on the neck that existed prior to the repaint.

I hate to argue this, 'cause it just seems like I'm slamming all these pieces. I'm simply not. They are cool pieces. It's just some of the claims attached to them that rubs me the wrong way. I'm not saying the TM is flawless... why should I? It's a nice ANH style mask with some ESB style work done to it. It's not perfect They all have flaws and they all lack that perfect 100% Tantive look. They are close... the closest we've seen yet... but I'm not attached to the casts... I'm attached to the look. I only have so much money, so I don't have a huge collection of Vader helmets, but it would be nice to have them all... just for their uniqueness and their individual features, strengths and weaknesses.

I will have them all :lol.

Seriously though I don't mind discussing it. I agree that the TD isn't perfect, nor the SL. But gosh the SL is rich and the TD has maybe not the same richness everywhere because it is painted but it has some nice earlier details.

Let me go through another exercise with you on detail analysis. This time just verbal.

You know that small indentation on the right side of the mouth triangle...I'll show it on the Tantive IV later when I get home...were you aware that it appears to have undergone a change on the original ANH over time? You say that the SL ANH lacks detail of the screen mask, yet have you actually compared that indentation on the screen mask with that of the TM? The TM has a rich sharp indentation there, no doubt, but it is actually different from that of the original screen ANH. If you've studied the screen ANH, you will notice that by the time of the Tantive IV shoot, that indentation was a smooth crescent shape, roughly, with a bit of a tail to it. That is exactly how it is on the SL ANH, EXACTLY.

However, the TM has something else, it has if one were to put a letter inside the indentation, something like an "M" with a tail coming off the front edge, but more like a crack. That "M" shape is, I believe, actually earlier. On the TD, sure enough, there is that same approximate shape, but again different than on the TM. I'll leave it at that for now.

I'll show more later when I get home of detail I showed before of the SL ANH.

That sort of brings me back to the question about what is on the top of the left cheek in terms of a major detail that is pretty obvious but isn't on later castings. Even if someone doesn't want to show their authentic casting, they could at least draw a picture of the detail.

 

[SithLord]

Some SL ANH details...

Left lower cheek corner compared to the Tantive IV mask...

So if you ask me why the SL ANH is ANH, well these images provide a small sample as to the reason why. If there is an ANH casting with finer details than this then I'd like to see it...


BTW, here's that indentation on the right side of the mouth triangle....other castings have an indentation there, either real or fabricated, but the SL ANH has the actual one you see on the original screen mask in the state it was in at the end of the ANH production.

Just on the lighter side of things, I dug up this photo which was always one of my favorites of the TD ANH as it has a certain kind of old world charm to it, and it was one of the first photos I got from the previous owner...he certainly had good taste for fine vintage.

I have to remember to use a bottle of wine for scale in all my collection photos....:lol

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I just matched those SL details to the TM. So, by your logic that makes it ANH.

You've stated yourself many times that the repaint wasn't covering the whole helmet. They just repaired some damage. Now you are hinting at that it was fully repainted. So which is it? And the Corbis photos are distorted, overlit (likely with flash in a dark room) and not really all that well photographed. Does the SL have the C scar for instance as clear and sharp as seen in the Tantive IV scenes or does it match the repaired and repainted look, where it is just a faint surface change?

I don't know exactly which mark on the TD you are talking about on the top left cheek as there are a few. For clarification, is it the plane surface where the tear drop is or the front facing cheek surface?
Which detail is it?

I must say... it looks very smooth on those surfaces and lacks a lot of detail.

And in all the photos I've seen of the TD the backing in the eye sockets were flat - not curved like the real lenses.

 

[SithLord]

I just matched those SL details to the TM. So, by your logic that makes it ANH.

I won't argue with you about what the TM has or doesn't have because I can easily show how the TM and SL compares if you want me to? I've stated what criteria make something ANH. Fine details contribute to that, but don't define it since obviously the ESB masks will share some details of ANH masks. So I'm not sure what logic of mine you are attempting to apply.

You said the SL ANH doesn't have screen detail.

I show that it does.

It wasn't an argument for why it is ANH.

You've stated yourself many times that the repaint wasn't covering the whole helmet. They just repaired some damage.

Yes, the neck was repainted. And I never said the repaint was to "just repair some damage" that is what you are saying for some reason?

Now you are hinting at that it was fully repainted. So which is it?

Where do I hint it was fully repainted? It wasn't.

And the Corbis photos are distorted, overlit (likely with flash in a dark room) and not really all that well photographed. Does the SL have the C scar for instance as clear and sharp as seen in the Tantive IV scenes or does it match the repaired and repainted look, where it is just a faint surface change?

The Corbis photos are clear in terms of detail. most are photographed more than 5ft away LOL. The one closeup that has distortion has no bearing on the detail that is resolved even considering the Tri-X Pan black and white film they used at the time. You can see San Francisco Bay in the daytime, Carsten. Yes, flash was used, but I don't see any saturated areas in the images do you? Therefore the exposure times were reasonable. Criticizing the photographs won't change what they reveal in terms of detail.

Yes the SL ANH has the exact same C-scar as the original ANH, in the Tantive IV scenes.

You think in the Tantive IV scenes there is this big chunk of paint missing, there isn't, that's an effect of the lighting. It is much shallower than you think.

I don't know exactly which mark on the TD you are talking about on the top left cheek as there are a few. For clarification, is it the plane surface where the tear drop is or the front facing cheek surface?
Which detail is it?

I must say... it looks very smooth on those surfaces and lacks a lot of detail.

That's VP ANH to show the area. The VP doesn't have the detail. It looks sort of like an upside down question mark, a big one covering most of the top cheek face. The detail is rearward of your bottom arrow occupying most of the center of that cheek area. I was hoping that you or anyone who considers themselves a Vader expert to tell me what kind of huge obvious detail is on that top surface but nobody seems able to. If they had an authentic casting in hand that wasn't cleaned up then they could.

And in all the photos I've seen of the TD the backing in the eye sockets were flat - not curved like the real lenses.

I didn't say they were exactly like the real lenses, I said they were curved in a way that approximates the original lenses. It is like someone put the pieces of plastic over something more rounded and just pushed down a bit, but not all the way around whatever object it pushed down on.