X-Wing Research: Differences Between the Hero and Pyro Models

[kk1]

The full size red R2 dome is the one that was behind Dennis Lawson as Wedge, but the scale size red R2 plug was actually on the hero Red Leader in both the scenes in the trench run from the film and a behind the scenes pic.

Ahh but was it supposed to be standing in for red 2 in that shot

 

[Blue 5]

Ahh but was it supposed to be standing in for red 2 in that shot

Yeah, that's the odd thing. Why did they pair Red Leader and Red 5? Since that same shot is used first with Red Leader's trench run before it was used again for Luke's trench run, maybe Red 5 is instead standing in for Red 10 or Red 12?

 

[Scott Graham]

The way the movie was filmed and edited in such a hurry means that people grabbed whatever they could to tell a story. That stuff doesn't hold up so well under this kind of intense scrutiny. It's hard to debate all this and try to have it make sense.

 

[Blue 5]

The way the movie was filmed and edited in such a hurry means that people grabbed whatever they could to tell a story. That stuff doesn't hold up so well under this kind of intense scrutiny. It's hard to debate all this and try to have it make sense.

Sacrilege! How dare you doubt the perfection of holy trilogy! Next you'll be pointing out the inconsistencies in the Bible.

Yeah, shots of Red 5 and Red Leader flying down the trench, and then shots of two Red 5s and Red 2 flying above, suggest that the FX crew pretty much gave up on continuity at some point even before the editing booth. Throw in an editor working for flow over continuity and we got the final product (followed by CG ships much later).

 

[ILMwannabe]

Why did they pair Red Leader and Red 5? Since that same shot is used first with Red Leader's trench run before it was used again for Luke's trench run, maybe Red 5 is instead standing in for Red 10 or Red 12?

Yes, it is apparent that Muren favored the Red Five and Red Leader hero models for filming, even at the expense of accuracy. Why? This was before even Sony Betamax had been invented - most folks didn't watch major motion pictures at home for the most part (except those few short clips sometimes available in 8mm). Most people had to go to the theatre. This business of "pausing" and "screen capturing" didn't really exist yet, so minor details which last only a few frames probably did not concern them too much - just a theory.

Why Red Five and Red Leader? The script never called for them to be together. Well, they do seem to be, after all, arguably the most detailed and nicely finished, and have all of the extra features that the hero models had. Maybe they were also the more "well behaved" (less mechanical problems, etc.) The Red Three always seemed to have more droopy upper wings.

Red Ten and Twelve were pyros (albeit "nice" pyros, or at least Twelve was). But apparently no footage of pyros exists in the final film other than the few seconds when they are exploding. Therefore there is no footage of a Ten or Twelve model flying down the trench (nor Red Four or Six for that matter).

I studied the film again this weekend to verify this. The majority of all X-Wing model shots in ANH are (in order by usage) Red Five, Red Leader, Red Two, Red Three. Of course, it's better to study the original theatrical version, not the "Special Editions".

In fact, after Luke's torpedoes hit home, we see two "Red Leader" hero models heading straight towards us, with the Deathstar in the background. After the station explodes, we see Red Leader (left) and Red Five (right) returning to base.

If you can pause the film just when Red Twelve begins to explode, you can see that it is actually the Red Two hero model spinning around like a feeding alligator! The model was unharmed - the explosion was added as a double-exposure instead of an actual model blowing-up. This method was also used several times in ANH.

The ILM cinematographers were extremely clever, that is why we admire them. The scenes where there are three X-Wings approaching the Deathstar are all Red Five! The engines look more dim and detailed on one of them, but if you look closely, it is the same model. Engine lights were filmed seperately. They could control the exposure, therefore the brightness of the engine glow. All they had to do was change the exposure for one of the engine passes to achieve the different look - brilliant!

They also changed the color of the X-Wing engine glow. Examination of the models shows that the engine lights were white with a red center on both X-Wings and Y-Wings. However, they chose to change the color of the X-Wing engines (perhaps as an added disctiction between the two) from reddish white to more violet-white. This could have been done photographically through the use of color filters or corrective filters for different film stocks.

It was only done in ANH - in ESB and ROTJ both X-Wings and Y-Wings appear to have reddish-white engine glows.

So sorry to ramble on, just so many details! The ILM guys were great!

 

[Blue 5]

Red Ten and Twelve were pyros (albeit "nice" pyros, or at least Twelve was). But apparently no footage of pyros exists in the final film other than the few seconds when they are exploding. Therefore there is no footage of a Ten or Twelve model flying down the trench (nor Red Four or Six for that matter).

I studied the film again this weekend to verify this. The majority of all X-Wing model shots in ANH are (in order by usage) Red Five, Red Leader, Red Two, Red Three. Of course, it's better to study the original theatrical version, not the "Special Editions".

In fact, after Luke's torpedoes hit home, we see two "Red Leader" hero models heading straight towards us, with the Deathstar in the background. After the station explodes, we see Red Leader (left) and Red Five (right) returning to base.

I've been going through my theatrical version DVD and Bluray sorting through each of the shots, matching them up with the shot listed in the fourth revised edition draft script which they shot from, and identify the models in it too. I've been working with the theatrical DVD, and if that's too fuzzy for a shot I switch to the Bluray and see if the shot is in that version (most of them are). You can't beat the detail on the new Bluray.

There is one shot I question, just before Red 4 bites it there is a shot of the X-Wing flying to the left close up with the TIE fighter close behind. I've been pausing at several points, and I swear I count 4 stripes on that X-Wing. A few times I think I'm looking at 5 stripes, but nothing else on it looks like Red 5. Does anyone else see the same thing? Could this be Red 4 pyro's one appearance? I haven't checked it on the Bluray yet.

As Luke, Wedge, the Falcon and Gold 7 fly from the Death Star and then to Yavin; I was thinking I saw the same the birds you list so I guess I can ink that one in my shot list. I asked on a Y-Wing thread if that is TIE Killer with them standing in for Gold 7, but no one has responded yet. I was assuming it was when it flies toward Yavin because it has engine lights.

If you can pause the film just when Red Twelve begins to explode, you can see that it is actually the Red Two hero model spinning around like a feeding alligator! The model was unharmed - the explosion was added as a double-exposure instead of an actual model blowing-up. This method was also used several times in ANH.

The ILM cinematographers were extremely clever, that is why we admire them. The scenes where there are three X-Wings approaching the Deathstar are all Red Five! The engines look more dim and detailed on one of them, but if you look closely, it is the same model. Engine lights were filmed seperately. They could control the exposure, therefore the brightness of the engine glow. All they had to do was change the exposure for one of the engine passes to achieve the different look - brilliant!

I can't even begin to explain what it was like as an eight year old seeing that battle for the first time in 1977 on the big screen. There had never been anything like it even remotely. The closest thing I had seen at that point in my life was the sparking Flash Gordon ships whizzing around on wires in very limited travel. Watching those ships spin and bank, dive and climb, it was amazing. I think Stephen Colbert said it best when he described talking to his friends the next day who hadn't seen it, and trying to explain how everything had changed and was different. When I went to see it the second time, it was in a drive-in theater and I brought a paper and crayons and kept track of how many Y-Wings and X-Wings there were. Even then I was doing research.

I thought the Red 12 pyro shot had a strange look to it. I hadn't examined that one yet. I had made the same observation about the Gold 5 death shot over on a Y-Wing thread, because it appeared they blew off the port engine and then it flew downward and was covered over by a separate fireball element. I think I may start looking at the pyro shots next to see if I can spot anymore.

Is the shot you are describing with three (Red 5) X-Wings approaching the Death Star the one with TIE Killer coming into view from below in the same shot?

 

[ILMwannabe]

There is one shot I question, just before Red 4 bites it there is a shot of the X-Wing flying to the left close up with the TIE fighter close behind. I've been pausing at several points, and I swear I count 4 stripes on that X-Wing. A few times I think I'm looking at 5 stripes, but nothing else on it looks like Red 5. Does anyone else see the same thing? Could this be Red 4 pyro's one appearance? I haven't checked it on the Bluray yet.

Thanks for the picture! That shot has been driving me nuts for years! You won't find it on the Blueray - it only appears on the original theatrical version. Yes, the bottom of that X-Wing doesn't quite look like the bottom of Red Five or any other (as seen in ANH, with heavy blurrs & the increased contrast and loss of color details, and where the cockpits look gray instead of gray/blue). Red Five had a small bluish/rust colored polygon on the lower forward fuselage, on the left side. The model in the shot you mentioned has a darker and more severe-looking dark gray blotch. The three streaks on Red Five near the lower mounting cover do not seem to match this shot, and the dark blotches on the rear of the fuselage also seem much darker than those on Red Five. And yet, the pictures I've seen of the Red Four Pyro do not seem to match either, so it continues to be an ongoing dilema. I hope others can chime in on this subject . . . (see new comparison attached)

It almost looks like the Red Five model (as seen in the final movie, not still photography), but not quite. ILM cameramen only seemed to film pyros when they were blowing up, so is it possible that they temporarily "redressed" Red Five for this one shot? (partially covered up one stripe with tape and added a few temporary markings to the bottom only)?

I asked on a Y-Wing thread if that is TIE Killer with them standing in for Gold 7, but no one has responded yet. I was assuming it was when it flies toward Yavin because it has engine lights. Is the shot you are describing with three (Red 5) X-Wings approaching the Death Star the one with TIE Killer coming into view from below in the same shot?

Many folks have commented that it is indeed Gold Leader and I agree. (see above)
But which model is seen below?

 

[kk1]

Many folks have commented that it is indeed Gold Leader and I agree.

Yup, compare it to the picture of the Y-wing with the black droid I posted on the previous page (which is also facing backwards) it's sitting in Gold Leader.

 

[Blue 5]

Yup, compare it to the picture of the Y-wing with the black droid I posted on the previous page (which is also facing backwards) it's sitting in Gold Leader.

I'm sorry, I see I wrote my Y-Wing question confusingly. I actually asked two questions. I was wondering if the shot ILMwanabe was describing previously of the 3 X-Wings that were all Red 5 composited together was the this one:

And I was also asking about the two shots described of the survivors racing away from the Death Star and then again toward Yavin's moon. The X-Wings were identified above, and I wondered about the model representing Gold 7 if it was TIE Killer or maybe blue/gray? Unfortunately I can't find a screen cap of the original shots, but here's the CGI replacement for reference:

 

[ILMwannabe]

I'm sorry, I see I wrote my Y-Wing question confusingly. I actually asked two questions. I was wondering if the shot ILMwanabe was describing previously of the 3 X-Wings that were all Red 5 composited together was the this one:

[/IMG]

Yes, that is one of the shots. There are two more when they all have thier X-Foils in attack position and fly one right after another . . .

And I was also asking about the two shots described of the survivors racing away from the Death Star and then again toward Yavin's moon. The X-Wings were identified above, and I wondered about the model representing Gold 7 if it was TIE Killer or maybe blue/gray? Unfortunately I can't find a screen cap of the original shots, but here's the CGI replacement for reference:]

That one goes by so fast that I can't tell - sorry. It's just too bliurred. However, if I was forced to guess, I would bet my money on it being Gold Leader, simply because Dennis Muren seemed to prefer filming the nicer "hero" models. (of course this applies to the original film, not the "Special Edition" cgi version illustrated above).

I also noticed that the Y-Wing Pyros built for ANH did not seem to have a provision for an R2 unit - the area where the droid goes seems to be solid. Also, the ANH pyros did not have most, if not all of the delicate tubing installed. Maybe this will help to tell them apart in some photos.

I found a picture of Gold Three (brownish/greenish) before it had the tubing/piping added, and with no droid slot, proving that it was indeed a pyro, before it was converted to a "hero" for ESB.

 

[Treadwell]

The foreground X-wing, for whatever reason, wasn't shot with the light engines on, as during the shot you can see that the lit up heatsinks wobble around as they try to keep it in synch with the ship movement, either through animation or a motion control move that didn't quite duplicate itself properly. (Beats me why they didn't expose the lights to bloom out like the other ships.)

So why would they go to such trouble? Could it be the foreground model was not a hero with lights?

 

[Blue 5]

That one goes by so fast that I can't tell - sorry. It's just too bliurred. However, if I was forced to guess, I would bet my money on it being Gold Leader, simply because Dennis Muren seemed to prefer filming the nicer "hero" models. (of course this applies to the original film, not the "Special Edition" cgi version illustrated above).

I also noticed that the Y-Wing Pyros built for ANH did not seem to have a provision for an R2 unit - the area where the droid goes seems to be solid. Also, the ANH pyros did not have most, if not all of the delicate tubing installed. Maybe this will help to tell them apart in some photos.

I found a picture of Gold Three (brownish/greenish) before it had the tubing/piping added, and with no droid slot, proving that it was indeed a pyro, before it was converted to a "hero" for ESB.

The guy who runs the astromech droid site was pointing out the lack of a droid socket in the pyro Ys on the table of models pics. That pretty much confirms blue/gray and TIE Killer as heros since they both have astromechs. MOM tour Y must have gotten an R2 retrofitted on it for ESB which it still has today. In the video from Profiles in History, they remark that they made their own R2 for the Profiles pyro Y which is why it has one.

 

[ILMwannabe]

The foreground X-wing, for whatever reason, wasn't shot with the light engines on, as during the shot you can see that the lit up heatsinks wobble around as they try to keep it in synch with the ship movement, either through animation or a motion control move that didn't quite duplicate itself properly. Could it be the foreground model was not a hero with lights?

I don't think so, but you can actually see the wobble and the unlit engines briefly, probably slight imperfections in the motor drive of the motion control camera during that one shot, and/or tolerances in the optical printer (that big machine that exposes all the elements on to a single piece of film), or a slight mis-synchronization of the two seperate elements.

It has been reported that engine glows and other lights are often shot in a seperate pass in a darkened room. I think all the engine glows were shot seperately on all the models in ANH.

But they had to get the engine glow from somewhere! The easiest way would have been to use the exact same model again on the "engine glow" pass, without moving or changing anything else, to match it up as much as possible. I used to think the engine glows were animated, but they match the patterns on the heatsinks just too accurately, and they are sometimes not all that bright. Animated glows would always be bright.

So why would they go to such trouble?[/QUOTE]You mean the extra trouble of filming them seperately? That's how it was done in the industry. Probably easier to hold focus. Those of us who've dabbled with photography know it's very hard to get that many mininatures spaced apart all in sharp focus (depth-of-field). First you have one model very close, then it goes far, then another one is close, and it too goes far, etc. How do you keep sharp focus on all?

If all the models were the same distance from the camera lens it would have been easier, but in that shot they are all over the place, and they are moving from close-in to distant. In fact, I heard that Douglas Trumbull had to film the "Discovery" model in "2001" in seperate sections because he could not get the whole thing in focus - that model was simply too long! (The first shot in the movie where the Discovery model is seen)

I was studying the original film again the other night, this time in slow motion. By doing so you can see that when the X-Wings roll, [I]the shadows move across their surfaces (such as the shadows of their laser guns), [/I]which strongly supports the theory that the [U]models[/U] were rotated on their stands during those roll shots, not the camera. This was when they used either the nose or butt mounts, of course.

 

[Blue 5]

I've been giving some information to the guy who does the astromech site on the droids in the X-Wings. But I don't have a lot of pyro pics of the X-Wings to go off of. I have one pic of Red 4, 2 pics of Red 12, only the shot of Red 3 on the table of models, and I think all of my Red Leader pics are of the hero except for when it shared the table with Red 3 and the rest. I got quite a few Red 6, but none with a clear view of the droid. I'm working off the idea that pyro droids were permanently mounted and so each model had a single droid for it. Here's the info I gave him so far:

Red Leader - unknown
Red 3 - R2 similar to R2-Q2
Red 4 - R4 identical to R4-M9
Red 6 - droid not visible in pics
Red 6 rough or Red 10? - only pic of belly known
Red 12 - the purple and orange R2
Red 4 rough - no droid
Profiles X-wing - R2 unpainted

Can anyone provide pics or state if they have seen pics that clarify which pyros had what droids? Thanks.

 

[ILMwannabe]

I'm working off the idea that pyro droids were permanently mounted and so each model had a single droid for it.

I'm not 100% sure of that. Pictures of the original "cast" pieces for the X-Wings (ANH) show the upper, detailed "droid plate" cast without the droid. In fact, it does not even have the circular cutout. We knew that hero models definitely have removable droids. But the "nice" pyros - maybe, maybe not. Maybe the nice pyros had them glued in.

Adding to the confusion, pictures of X-Wing pyros have also surfaced where the droid does appear to be cast together with the droid plate (in particular a blown-up one whose remains were seen in a Disney Store in Florida). But we are not sure what vintage these were, if it was just glued, and also they were not the "nice" pyros.

By the way, in ANH, Gold Two is seen in the distance with what appears to be a silver R2 unit, but the rest of the details cannot be seen (the scenes where they are heading to the Deathstar). Yet the Gold Two hero was also photographed with a white R2 unit, painted with thin red stripes and three gray dots in it's "face" (apparently an attempt to simulate the white and red R5-D4 unit which had "a bad motivator" on Tattoine, and which was also used in Porkins' live action cockpit shots). Perhaps that R5-D4 droid was meant to be used on the Red Six model - there was an attempt by the model shop to match what was shot in England, even though they apparently never got around to making an R5 miniature, as evidenced by the use of a Red R2 on Red Leader.

If the R5-D4 droid was used on Red Six (which was destroyed), then there is evidence that it was removed and survived (the Gold Two picture).

Likewise, Gold Leader was photographed not only with the black R2, but with the gray one, but you probably knew that already.

In a classic example of "hero" model preference and use, when we see Gold Leader in his cockpit, saying "We're starting for the target shaft now", you can see the Gold Leader model in the background (his own ship!), along with Gold Two.

That is the shot where Gold Two seems to have a silver droid.

Lastly, the Y-Wings weren't the only ones in the film to be accidentally filmed without their droids. Near the end of the film, when Red Five is zooming down the trench from right to left (a shot used at least three or four times) the model is also missing its droid (and its engine lights are off).

P.S. - which is the "profiles" Y-Wing?

 

[Blue 5]

I'm not 100% sure of that. Pictures of the original "cast" pieces for the X-Wings (ANH) show the upper, detailed "droid plate" cast without the droid. In fact, it does not even have the circular cutout. We knew that hero models definitely have removable droids. But the "nice" pyros - maybe, maybe not. Maybe the nice pyros had them glued in.

Adding to the confusion, pictures of X-Wing pyros have also surfaced where the droid does appear to be cast together with the droid plate (in particular a blown-up one whose remains were seen in a Disney Store in Florida). But we are not sure what vintage these were, if it was just glued, and also they were not the "nice" pyros.

Yeah, that was my fear that might be some degree of simplifying may not be. The shot of the exploded pyro pieces shows a droid that appears to be molded on to the rest of the detail, which contradicts the sunglasses shot of the droid being a separately molded piece. The only pics that suggest there might have been droid swapping is the really fuzzy image of a droid on Red 6 that looks like it might be the same R5-D4 like droid as pictured on blue/gray (Gold 2). I don't know of any other shots of pyros that have a change in droids like we see with Red Leader. Like I said, I know there are more pics of Red 3 and Red 4 that were previously posted but are now broken links so I don't have them to reference. I think there were also some similar ones of Red Leader and Red 12. From what I've read, no one has found a better reference shot of Red 6 than the fuzzy shot. I also looked hard at the two shots of the rough Red 4 and I see no droid or slot on that ship. Can anybody clarify more?

I know this is not a Y-Wing thread, I posted the Y-Wing summary on another thread, but here's the Bluray shot the astromech guy sent me that you were talking about. From the DVD theatrical version I had assumed the blurry light colored droid was probably the white R5-D4 like droid we see in the pics of blue/gray (Gold 2). But when I looked at this screen grab, I was struck by how much it looked like the gray droid that had been seen in TIE Killer (Gold Leader) in similar pics. How interesting if we had a little square dance going on with the black R2 moving from Red Leader to Gold Leader, and then Gold Leader's gray R2 moving to Gold 2, and Gold 2's R5-D4 like droid moving to Red 6? Do-si-do and away we go. Oh, and yes Gold Leader's ship is visible from his own cockpit, Gold 2 must be towing a large mirror behind it.

This is what I'm calling the Profiles pyro X-Wing. Since it was stated in the Profiles in History video that this pyro was built out of other pyro parts and newly molded parts during ANH, and then not finished and used, I'm assuming this might be one of the 9 pyro models that were mentioned in the Famous Spaceships article. With the 5 nice pyros, plus the rough Red 4, and what some call the rough Red 6 (and some think is Red 10); the Profiles X-Wing would be the 9th built leaving only one pyro unaccounted for (of course it is equally valid that the Profiles pyro is not included in the 9 count, which means there are 2 unaccounted for pyros).

 

[jedimaster]

1,3,4,6,10,12 = 6 pyros with hero paint jobs. (nice pyros)

3,4 & 6 had duplicates made (less detailed) for the later pickup shots.

 

[Blue 5]

1,3,4,6,10,12 = 6 pyros with hero paint jobs. (nice pyros)

3,4 & 6 had duplicates made (less detailed) for the later pickup shots.

Are there pictures of Red 10 nice pyro, Red 3 rough pyro, and Red 6 rough pyro? I know there is a pic that some say is Red 10 and others say is Red 6 rough pyro, but I have not seen any other pics for these.

I do not see a droid on the Red 4 rough pyro, would the rough pyros for Red 3 and Red 6 also be droidless?

 

[ILMwannabe]

Thanks for the "Profiles X-Wing" clarification and picture. Fantastic color observation on the "purple" and orange droid. I knew it was orange, but never noticed the purple - I thought is was just the photography, I thought it was black. But I processed the picture several times with photo-editing software, then sampled the pixels on the droid, and yes indeed the dark areas are dark purplish! Good eye!

I am now convinced that the miniature white R2 painted to look like Porkins' R5 was photographed on two different models (the Gold Two Hero and the Red Six Pyro). Which seems to indicate that droids could be swapped on the "nice" pyros as well.

I studied the B&W pictures of the 2nd nice Red Six pyro model last night (the one with ILMer Bruce Logan settting it up, where the model is mounted from the back). I do not think it is the same Red Six model - the "tell" is the aft end of the laser cannons. The Red Six that has been photographed more (with the red laser cannon on the lower right wing) definitely has the longest aft sections on those cannons of any X-Wing, pyro or hero. The Red Six model in the B&W picture does not have that feature, nor the red cannon. So that makes two Red Six models that are "nice".

The Red Six seen in the film burning up only had sticks for lasers (but it did have a Red Stripe), so that makes three Red Six pyros that we know of.

The only pyro seen in ANH which does not have sticks for lasers when it blew up was Red Four. But it was probably the second Red Four model that is seen (the one pictured with pyrotechnist Joe Viscocil & designer Joe Johnston - not as nice, but not a "stick" either). So that accounts for two Red Four pyros at least.

Red Three was a "nice" pyro, but in the movie we see a fuselage and wings only, with sticks on the wings and no engines, no cans. That's at least two pyros.

It has been mentioned that the Red 10/Red 3 explosion are the same model from two different camera angles. Maybe, but I've looked at it several times - they are very, very similar, but I'm not sure it it's the same explosion.

In summary of the above . . . (Pyros only)
1.) Red Leader (nice)
2.) Red Three (nice)
3.) Red Three (sticks, no fuselage stripe, no eng.) identified here only by its placement in the film
4.) Red Four (nice)
5.) Red Four (not as nice but complete except for droid; gray stripes on upper cans) seen in film?
6.) Red Six (nice, red cannon on lower right wing)
7.) Red Six (also nice, number two) B&W picture
8.) Red Six (sticks, red stripe) identified here only by its use in the film
9.) Red Ten (red cannon on upper left wing) number unconfirmed, but an additional, unique model nevertheless
10.) Red Ten (sticks, no red stripe, no eng.) identified here only by its use in the film; no wing markings
11.) Red Twelve (nice)
(I realize these lists have been made here before - just trying to contribute something new)

The above is 2 more than the 9 pyros mentioned (maybe they did not count the "stick" versions?).As we know, ILM's intial explosions were too quick and did not produce adequate fireballs (partially because of the scale). Then they brought in Joe Viscocil, Greg Auer and Bruce Logan to do the miniature explosions. Since we see Mr. Viscocil holding pyro Red Four (which we call number two) it gives us an idea of the time frame. The "nice" Red Four had probably been unsuccesfully dispatched by the time that picture was taken. So there were still some complete, albeit second-generation pyros available when Viscocil, Auer and Logan arrived.

Another hint of the sequence of events comes from books. They state that the "hero" models were built first, then the "pyros" were cast. Although we also know that they had great difficulty getting the X-Wing motor mechanisms to work. The hero X-wings may not have been "absolutely complete" by the time they started work on the pyros.

Mr. Viskocil was also quoted as saying that he received about 8 or 9 starfighters to blow up, all in one day! Presumably a mix of X and Y wings, perhaps more of them were X-wings. I wonder how many of those were of the "stick" variety.

We can also infer with a reasonable amount of certainty that most of the X and Y-wing pyro explosions seen in the film were the ones created by Viskocil & Auer, and shot by Logan, because those were the ones that were approved by Lucas.

It was reported here that Lorne Peterson said that it never got to a point where they ran out of models to blow up (or had to blow up a hero) but it obviously did get to a point where they used at least two unpainted fuselages and wings with sticks, with no engines at all.

They had the molds - theoretically they could not run out of models - but as we all know, they were running out of time as the film release date quickly approached.

 

[ILMwannabe]

Since this is the "differences" thread, I would like to re-open two questions which have come up before (at the risk of maybe ruffling a few feathers, but in a friendly way!)

1. Why were the pyros so nicely detailed if they were going to be only briefly seen then destroyed?

2. Was the Red 3 hero repainted for ESB? (I can just imagine some folks going "arghh! not again!") Please bear with me . . .

My arguments: The Model Shop was tasked with manufacturing detailed miniatures for photography - it was not up to them to speculate on how briefly the models would be seen on the big screen. The Red Leader pyro matches its hero very closely, and the Red Three pyro even uses the same exact Airfix Saturn V engine can patterns as the hero version. The builders were trying to match the heroes - even Red 3 - which leads me to believe that

1.) They paid more attention to the details and cans than previously thought, and
2.) (here it comes) Unlikely I know, But I continue to suspect that the now-familiar Red 3 hero paintjob was
actually a repaint for ESB. How else to explain the vast difference in paint jobs only?

But why a Red 3 repaint? Why even suspect a Red 3 hero repaint?

• The Red 3 Pyro was constructed very similarly to, but painted completely differently from the “well-known” Red 3 hero, whereas the Red Leader Pyro was almost identical in every respect.
• The few shots of Red 3 seen in the film do not seem to match the well-known markings on the Red 3 hero, even taking into account that colors (especially blue) appear more faded in the film. Red 3 is one of most colorful X-Wings, yet the paint scheme is difficult to spot in ANH
.• There are no definitive pictures of the Red 3 hero dated 1975-1977 which show the well-known paint job. Early publicity items (such as the programme sold in theatres in 1977) only showed photographs of Red 5 and Red 2 - Red 3 is notably absent from early ANH materials.

Evidence against the “re-paint” theory

• Beaz contributed a rare and intriguing picture of what appears to be Red 3 in the well-known paint job being readied for filming, with Dennis Muren using a light meter to get a reading for the shot (thanks much Beaz!). The photo is not dated, but its wings are splayed open, which implies use either in ANH or ROTJ, and Muren does look younger in the picture.
• Red 3 has appeared with the well-known paint job as early as 1979 in the first edition of “The Art of Star Wars” (printed Nov. 1979).

The evidence seems to be much more in favor of Red 3 hero being unchanged, but I think not yet fully conclusive. ESB was well into production during all of 1979.

On the one hand, the pictures in the book are the same type as those taken of other ANH models (black background, high contrast) many attributed to Richard Edlund. On the other hand, pictures like those were also taken later, and unfortunately the Red 3 pictures in the book are undated. Is it possible that the Red 3 hero model had problems and was not ready in time for many shots? Would that explain why the Red 3 pyro was painted different?

(In comparison, the Red Y-Wing was completed by the ILMers after returning from the UK, even though it was never used in the film).

Why would ILM repaint Red 3?

• George Lucas did not approve the first painting attempt (but it was kept on the pyro)?
• For ESB only; Biggs was lost in ANH; but the model returned in ESB & ROTJ - it would have to look like a different number "3" ship. The Red Leader Hero model was also gone (not destroyed but missing), never to be filmed again. Red 3 was the only hero model left which represented a ship that was destroyed.

I think there is still the shadow of a doubt because it can’t yet be ruled out. The Red 3 hero model is very different from the rest - it has a unique lower nose (why?), it’s photon torpedo tube is far forward (the only other ship which had that was Red 5), and it has extra raised vertical panels on the aft edge of the wedges which go under the engines, on the wings (also unique).

This being said, any further thoughts?