BRDencklau
Well-Known Member
The folly of man... Bollocks.
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Why are Custom Commissioned Props so Expensive? The Answer is Below....
- Thread starter DtailedREPLICAS
- Start date
DtailedREPLICAS
Active Member
Haha. All too true.
I guess your work lives on in spirit in the film though. Thats something. Funnily enough its the whole point of why the items were made, but to us thats not the point, its the thing itself, not the thing that you see it in.
I guess your work lives on in spirit in the film though. Thats something. Funnily enough its the whole point of why the items were made, but to us thats not the point, its the thing itself, not the thing that you see it in.
That was one of the hardest things I ever had to deal with: During a interview was to watch props I had made, props that had BEEN in a Star Trek film, props that were now worth more money, being tossed into a bin as I watched..
And I had to act professionally and act like it did not matter to me: I was being interviewed for another prop job on anther Trek show....
I did get some revenge later as I was able to take home a lot of stuff thrown out in other bins...
Rich
And I had to act professionally and act like it did not matter to me: I was being interviewed for another prop job on anther Trek show....
I did get some revenge later as I was able to take home a lot of stuff thrown out in other bins...
Rich
kingsley
Active Member
I run an armoury as a business. I make armour, shields, weapons, and props. My commissioned pieces, or handmade pieces are expensive, I like to think, because of the quality. I hand sew all my pieces (double stitch with waxed cord), am painstaking in the detail, and put a lot of time and energy into a commission. I have had more than a few clients, who ended up ordering the cheaper version on the internet, contact me later with regret they didn't just spend the money the first time. And I have never heard anyone ever say "I wish I bought the cheaper one that was not as good".
But there is a balance to it all. Any product, no matter how valuable you as the merchant think it is, is only worth as much as the customer is willing to pay. I have sold $300 knives for $100 to get it out of the shop. Break even price, or loss not even including the time.
But there is a balance to it all. Any product, no matter how valuable you as the merchant think it is, is only worth as much as the customer is willing to pay. I have sold $300 knives for $100 to get it out of the shop. Break even price, or loss not even including the time.
zanderwitaz
Well-Known Member
This sort of thing will always be undervalued. Sure, sometimes people can do well in a run, but even Adam Savage said himself on tested in one of his earlier videos that no one is really making any money doing this stuff. Sure, Some hollywood guys get paid ok until they reach a cap, work is sporadic, and everything is contract.
As someone who developed at the same time as Harrison Krix and Bill Doran, I can tell you that even now, the money still isn't very good. Granted I havent been nearly as aggressive at expanding my business (I'm going the oppoisite way-Started doing props full time out of college because I couldnt find the job I trained for, and am trying to reach a full time, stable job in that market, where as the other guys left their full time jobs to take a risk at prop commissions) But I can say with a lot of certainty that when it comes to an hourly wage, I charge the same thing (if not more) than they do hourly and still cant make a living off of it. (Partially because CA is friggin expensive, but still. )
Setting higher prices can scare off people but I work part time elsewhere to compliment my living. People often forget how important benefits are (health, dental, etc) and brush it off because getting insurance on your own sucks. (I would have been dead or seriously disabled if I didn't have coverage the last 6 months and I'm 26. I just had a $950,000 brain surgery. That doesn't include any work ups, specialists, MRI/MRA/Angio and CTs to go along with it. Good luck paying for that as a contractor on your own insurance.)
When you cover your shop cost, materials/paint, tools/blades, research time, emails and quoting, promotional work through various mediums, etc, In my honest opinion it just isn't worth it. And with the looming threat of exponentially increasing 3d printing sizing, resolution, and affordability, then all it will come down to is computer modeling. (Basically, it cuts out a few years of model making/trial and error and makes people bad with their hands...good with their hands. You'll somehow have to compete against that. Keep in mind that we will be printing in color too, so people depending on custom paint jobs are threatened as well. Photoshop textures and weathering will simply be printed with the material.
Im trying to get out of the game as fast as possible to keep it a hobby. If you can do ANYTHING else professionally as your main source of income, do that instead. Your work will always be under-valued.
-Zander (Zprops)
As someone who developed at the same time as Harrison Krix and Bill Doran, I can tell you that even now, the money still isn't very good. Granted I havent been nearly as aggressive at expanding my business (I'm going the oppoisite way-Started doing props full time out of college because I couldnt find the job I trained for, and am trying to reach a full time, stable job in that market, where as the other guys left their full time jobs to take a risk at prop commissions) But I can say with a lot of certainty that when it comes to an hourly wage, I charge the same thing (if not more) than they do hourly and still cant make a living off of it. (Partially because CA is friggin expensive, but still. )
Setting higher prices can scare off people but I work part time elsewhere to compliment my living. People often forget how important benefits are (health, dental, etc) and brush it off because getting insurance on your own sucks. (I would have been dead or seriously disabled if I didn't have coverage the last 6 months and I'm 26. I just had a $950,000 brain surgery. That doesn't include any work ups, specialists, MRI/MRA/Angio and CTs to go along with it. Good luck paying for that as a contractor on your own insurance.)
When you cover your shop cost, materials/paint, tools/blades, research time, emails and quoting, promotional work through various mediums, etc, In my honest opinion it just isn't worth it. And with the looming threat of exponentially increasing 3d printing sizing, resolution, and affordability, then all it will come down to is computer modeling. (Basically, it cuts out a few years of model making/trial and error and makes people bad with their hands...good with their hands. You'll somehow have to compete against that. Keep in mind that we will be printing in color too, so people depending on custom paint jobs are threatened as well. Photoshop textures and weathering will simply be printed with the material.
Im trying to get out of the game as fast as possible to keep it a hobby. If you can do ANYTHING else professionally as your main source of income, do that instead. Your work will always be under-valued.
-Zander (Zprops)
Ah, dumpster diving! It's amazing how much potential movie memorabilia gets thrown away. I've retrieved a few things myself that I couldn't bear to see junked.
But unless the production company is planning a sequel, they don't want to pay to store it. They just want to be done with it.
And the cost of those originals is exactly what this thread is about too! The originals are one offs, and they costs thousands of dollars to make. I've worked on some that ran into 6 figures! Labor aint cheap. And we work fast in the film biz.
It's an eye-opener for hobbyists who want to get into the film business when they show us their portfolio of truly amazingly detailed work that they proudly tell of the hundreds of hours it took them to make, and then we tell them we need someone who can make something in a week. Don't get me wrong; I admire the quality of the work that some hobbyists produce, we just aren't given the luxury of time to make things as perfect as we'd like to. I can't tell you how many times a production will ask on a friday for something they need on monday. So guess what? They get to pay for overtime for us to slap something together over the weekend. MO' MONEY!!
I also build models as a hobby, and any of those things I might sell may get priced differently. I believe that even my personal time is worth something - I just might be more negotiable about it. For instance: I have made custom replicas for clients that I've given a price break to because I get a copy for myself when it's something I want too. There are other pieces that I've made that I decide I don't want any more that I might let go for a cheap price too. BUT there are some things I've made that I wouldn't sell except for CRAZY money. Call it sentimental value. And if someone thinks the price is too high, then they don't buy it. No big deal. There's no reason either party should get their panties in a bunch. We just shake hands and walk away.
All that being said; if a potential client has a limited budget, I'll try to see if there is a compromise that we each can live with. By bringing the accuracy or quality down a bit, or using less expensive materials or processes, you might find a way to meet a budget. It's all about each party being realistic without attitude. You can't make a Ferrari on a Ford budget, but you might make something that looks like one just without the performance.
But unless the production company is planning a sequel, they don't want to pay to store it. They just want to be done with it.
And the cost of those originals is exactly what this thread is about too! The originals are one offs, and they costs thousands of dollars to make. I've worked on some that ran into 6 figures! Labor aint cheap. And we work fast in the film biz.
It's an eye-opener for hobbyists who want to get into the film business when they show us their portfolio of truly amazingly detailed work that they proudly tell of the hundreds of hours it took them to make, and then we tell them we need someone who can make something in a week. Don't get me wrong; I admire the quality of the work that some hobbyists produce, we just aren't given the luxury of time to make things as perfect as we'd like to. I can't tell you how many times a production will ask on a friday for something they need on monday. So guess what? They get to pay for overtime for us to slap something together over the weekend. MO' MONEY!!
I also build models as a hobby, and any of those things I might sell may get priced differently. I believe that even my personal time is worth something - I just might be more negotiable about it. For instance: I have made custom replicas for clients that I've given a price break to because I get a copy for myself when it's something I want too. There are other pieces that I've made that I decide I don't want any more that I might let go for a cheap price too. BUT there are some things I've made that I wouldn't sell except for CRAZY money. Call it sentimental value. And if someone thinks the price is too high, then they don't buy it. No big deal. There's no reason either party should get their panties in a bunch. We just shake hands and walk away.
All that being said; if a potential client has a limited budget, I'll try to see if there is a compromise that we each can live with. By bringing the accuracy or quality down a bit, or using less expensive materials or processes, you might find a way to meet a budget. It's all about each party being realistic without attitude. You can't make a Ferrari on a Ford budget, but you might make something that looks like one just without the performance.
I can so relate: dumpster diving and the problem of doing it fast and cheap..
Two stories: One is the Power Leach aka Proton Collector from ST Voyage Home, they NEEDED it over a holiday weekend..we made three in three days and we were heroes to the prop master.
I worked at "The Hand Prop Room" for some time and watched a few very good model makers fail to last due to slow speed, you had to be good and fast. Luckily I was...
And as zanderwitaz said, it is very hard to make a living at this. And I barely do, one by living in Phoenix AZ which is a lot cheaper than LA, and Two thanks to my being in this Biz for 30+ years can get a fair price for my models.
And again as zanderwitaz said: I do tell people to forget this as a career and if that does not stop them I say go into make up, at lease between the special effects jobs you can still do everyday make up work..every actor and extra needs to be made up...
I have tried a few times to find other work but the past couple of decades, my health has prevented my seeking a normal job/career so here I remain.
Rich
Two stories: One is the Power Leach aka Proton Collector from ST Voyage Home, they NEEDED it over a holiday weekend..we made three in three days and we were heroes to the prop master.
I worked at "The Hand Prop Room" for some time and watched a few very good model makers fail to last due to slow speed, you had to be good and fast. Luckily I was...
And as zanderwitaz said, it is very hard to make a living at this. And I barely do, one by living in Phoenix AZ which is a lot cheaper than LA, and Two thanks to my being in this Biz for 30+ years can get a fair price for my models.
And again as zanderwitaz said: I do tell people to forget this as a career and if that does not stop them I say go into make up, at lease between the special effects jobs you can still do everyday make up work..every actor and extra needs to be made up...
I have tried a few times to find other work but the past couple of decades, my health has prevented my seeking a normal job/career so here I remain.
Rich
Maybe have two prices?
- Compleated Prop
- Generic Prop Kit containing
- Block of wood
- piece of metal round stock
- 2 part resin kit
- etc...
This is just about what John Long did with his Communicator and Phaser kits, except you got a lot more than a block of wood, to keep the prices down to what most of us could afford. But, when he finished some of the kits himself, he charged a premium for his time in building them and the fact they were built by him and I didn't see too much complaining except for the usual suspects.
I'm one of those people that is not any good at making or building kits and usually commission someone to do the builds for me, such as Phez who has built a bunch of kits for me. We always work out some sort of deal that both of us think is fair, but I know how much time and effort he puts into the work and appreciate what he and other builders do very much.
SithApprentice2
Member
Hi:
I think Bill gives a very reasoned overview of the costs associated with building props- certainly very enlightening for someone not familar with the industry. Although he mentions it in the video, I think it is worth highlighting that customers are not just paying for the prop builder's time but also for their expertise, skill and experience....quality prop replicas are an art form in my opinion.
I think Bill gives a very reasoned overview of the costs associated with building props- certainly very enlightening for someone not familar with the industry. Although he mentions it in the video, I think it is worth highlighting that customers are not just paying for the prop builder's time but also for their expertise, skill and experience....quality prop replicas are an art form in my opinion.
Pippspriller
Well-Known Member
Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more. If a prop builder doesn't value his time from the very beginning, he only succeeds in letting his clients know that his time is worthless. Moreover, when an amateur works on the cheap in an effort to build a good name for himself, it de-values not only his/her work, but everyone else's as well.
I first learned about this as a commercial pilot. New pilots will pretty much work for free in an effort to build hours. Everyone gets hurt by the practice: even the new pilot.
kingsley
Active Member
Hear! Hear! Brother!
BRDencklau
Well-Known Member
Yes it is. That's why we do it, right?
To be the best.
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kingsley
Active Member
Not to mention expensive...a lot of energy, time and money is soaked into the tools, work-space, and sundries to make stuff. My customers forget that while the leather costs a certain amount, the leather, conditioner, blades, press, tool dies, vices, anvils, hammers, and plethora of other materials wear out or expire. Part of the price is covering their degradation.
Good perspective from a newer member. Well said. :thumbsup
Speaking as a professional prop maker, I've never had anyone ever question my pricing. Granted, one may well pass on a given item due to the price, but nobody has ever posed the question, "Why so expensive?" I really can't see a reasonable adult asking such a thing. A kid, sure, but an educated collector, no.
An educated collector knows they're dealing with items that can't be purchased at Walmart. In most cases they seek out those who are known to offer the best version of whatever piece they're after...with that comes a perception (and appreciation) of value and a decent understanding of the market. If you have to stop and educate someone as to 'why' a piece is priced the way it is; you're wasting your time with someone who has no intent of working with you anyway. Pearls before swine and all...you can't educate them.
You're never gonna get the average loon off the street to appreciate why a given comic might sell for thousands of dollars. They either are or they're not an educated collector.
Again, I've been at this a very long time and offer some high end pieces...it's just never comes up. As someone else said. Pay to play. If you want crap there's plenty of people willing to sell you some. However, if you want quality; if you truly demand the best, yes, of course it's gonna cost more than what an amateur cobbled together out of a chunk of wood in shop class.
I just see this a very 'no ****' type of thing. You either get it or you don't. As for this guy making a video discussing or justifying 'Why'...I suspect he's got an audience of children for that which he's known. Either that or zero rep to attract the proper audience.
-Rylo
Speaking as a professional prop maker, I've never had anyone ever question my pricing. Granted, one may well pass on a given item due to the price, but nobody has ever posed the question, "Why so expensive?" I really can't see a reasonable adult asking such a thing. A kid, sure, but an educated collector, no.
An educated collector knows they're dealing with items that can't be purchased at Walmart. In most cases they seek out those who are known to offer the best version of whatever piece they're after...with that comes a perception (and appreciation) of value and a decent understanding of the market. If you have to stop and educate someone as to 'why' a piece is priced the way it is; you're wasting your time with someone who has no intent of working with you anyway. Pearls before swine and all...you can't educate them.
You're never gonna get the average loon off the street to appreciate why a given comic might sell for thousands of dollars. They either are or they're not an educated collector.
Again, I've been at this a very long time and offer some high end pieces...it's just never comes up. As someone else said. Pay to play. If you want crap there's plenty of people willing to sell you some. However, if you want quality; if you truly demand the best, yes, of course it's gonna cost more than what an amateur cobbled together out of a chunk of wood in shop class.
I just see this a very 'no ****' type of thing. You either get it or you don't. As for this guy making a video discussing or justifying 'Why'...I suspect he's got an audience of children for that which he's known. Either that or zero rep to attract the proper audience.
-Rylo
BRDencklau
Well-Known Member
Well played, Rylo.
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DtailedREPLICAS
Active Member
Personally I think thats all good and well for Rylo to give that (what comes off as an arrogant) opinion, about someone he knows nothing about.
Granted, I know nothing much about Bill Doran either, but simply because the stuff you (Rylo) sell is expensive, doesnt mean its necessarily any better than someone who has a less established name or market, and cant get the money you apparently deserve.
Clearly other people feel this way, else why have so many given examples of how individuals have argued on price. Thats the point of this thread THAT IT DOES HAPPEN!
Your narrow minded approach, 'doesnt happen to me, so if it is happening to someone they must be either talent-less or making toys for children' is rude and self righteous.
Granted, I know nothing much about Bill Doran either, but simply because the stuff you (Rylo) sell is expensive, doesnt mean its necessarily any better than someone who has a less established name or market, and cant get the money you apparently deserve.
Clearly other people feel this way, else why have so many given examples of how individuals have argued on price. Thats the point of this thread THAT IT DOES HAPPEN!
Your narrow minded approach, 'doesnt happen to me, so if it is happening to someone they must be either talent-less or making toys for children' is rude and self righteous.
BRDencklau
Well-Known Member
Oh, snap. My spectator attitude has gotten the better of me.
People argue may about the price no matter what. They might not. Value is relative. I think the point is: Don't make crappy product/recast and try to sell it as gold. Don't make gold and undersell your fellow makers (regardless of stature). You are effing it up on the grander scheme. Do always place value on your time but don't be a dick about it. We are all made of the same decaying organic matter. No one is truly special. If this us your first time at RPF Club, you have to fight...
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People argue may about the price no matter what. They might not. Value is relative. I think the point is: Don't make crappy product/recast and try to sell it as gold. Don't make gold and undersell your fellow makers (regardless of stature). You are effing it up on the grander scheme. Do always place value on your time but don't be a dick about it. We are all made of the same decaying organic matter. No one is truly special. If this us your first time at RPF Club, you have to fight...
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DtailedREPLICAS
Active Member
Haha. Snap indeed.
What youre saying is true Brian. Dont make crap and sell it for more than its worth. And that would well turn a buyer of a high price, if they believe what they are buying is low quality. However, Im going on the assumption here that what is being sold is of higher quality, and therefore worth the value placed on it.
It of course stands that overpricing an item is a no, no. But thats not whats being discussed I think.
Its where a reasonable price is being questioned due to lack of understanding from the general public that have never sat for 100 hrs to make something from nothing.
What youre saying is true Brian. Dont make crap and sell it for more than its worth. And that would well turn a buyer of a high price, if they believe what they are buying is low quality. However, Im going on the assumption here that what is being sold is of higher quality, and therefore worth the value placed on it.
It of course stands that overpricing an item is a no, no. But thats not whats being discussed I think.
Its where a reasonable price is being questioned due to lack of understanding from the general public that have never sat for 100 hrs to make something from nothing.
BRDencklau
Well-Known Member
Truth!
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