Was Luke’s ROTJ Saber INTENDED To Be A GRAFLEX?

[Halliwax]

Hmmmmm….good research; It still doesn’t seem to specify if the new “laser sword” hilt would / would not be a GRAFLEX design, just that Luke would build a new one to replace the one that he lost.

Obviously, per this conversation in Rinzler’s book, Lucas and team were well aware that Luke would have a newly constructed “Laser Sword” and I really doubt that the GRAFLEX showing up on Day One of filming was due to some comical error on the part of the prop master that needed to be rectified with the quick replacement of a heavily worn out stunt hilt from ANH that was normally used in rehearsals.

This might also explain why the Skywalker Ranch hilt looks “similar” to the ESB hilts but with some unique details like the wide textured mylar tape on the clamp, the reversed Kobold D-Ring mount with brass screws mounting it to the flash bottom, etc.

View attachment 1699233

The tape was added after they were cast. (I can confirm this 1000%) and I also believe this is why the Kobold is flipped.. they removed the Kobold to add the pour sprue

…see how long before I get in trouble for this last post

 

[Captain Dunsel]

The tape was added after they were cast. (I can confirm this 1000%) and I also believe this is why the Kobold is flipped.. they removed the Kobold to add the pour sprue

…see how long before I get in trouble for this last post

That would, I think, add even more evidence that the use of the GRAFLEX was intentional (taking the time to cast it for the R2 stunt, etc) and not some act of negligence.

I think it’s also safe to assume that the hero that showed up on Day One (Skywalker Ranch Hikt) had time between being cast and showing up on set for these additional details (new textured mylar on the clamp, etc) to be added for filming.

 

[Gregatron]

That would, I think, add even more evidence that the use of the GRAFLEX was intentional (taking the time to cast it for the R2 stunt, etc) and not some act of negligence.

I think it’s also safe to assume that the hero that showed up on Day One (Skywalker Ranch Hikt) had time between being cast and showing up on set for these additional details (new textured mylar on the clamp, etc) to be added for filming.

This is a plausible theory. Do we know that the textured tape was on the prop at the time of filming the sandstorm scene? My guess has always been that the thin tape either peeled off or was damaged, and so they quickly grabbed a replacement.

It may well be that the plan was just to cobble together a prop from leftover ESB Graflex parts, but Lucas reconsidered reusing the Graflex design during that first day on-set. Or perhaps Hamill was upset at being shown the prop just prior to filming, and seeing that he’d have to deal with those awkward and painful grips yet again for the duel sequence, so he requested a change.

 

[CopperRevan]

I knew I read it somewhere!!! And they say I have brain damage… hmmmphh!!

View attachment 1699231
Pg68 of the “making of return of the Jedi” transcript from 1981
View attachment 1699230

Lucas: I got an idea you can use with artoo, what if Luke is about to walk the plank. “Well so long old buddy” and he whistles , as you do in those movies where you whistle for your dog, and then you cut to the top deck of the ship. Artoo is there and a little launcher pops of of his head. Then like goes over the plank, drops, jumps back onto the ship, grabs the sword and starts fighting. We do the acrobatic thing where he flips himself back

Kazanjian: mark lost his laser sword didn’t he?

Lucas: he did lose his laser seord, when his father cut his hand off

Kazanjian: so whose lazer sword is he using? Should I have brought this up?

Lucas: you should because that’s what everybody will ask

Murquand: we’ll, it didn’t occur to me

Lucas: the way I was explaining it in the scripts before was that he made another one. But it’s going to be to impossible, given the structure of the way film is now, to explain where that lazer sword came from.

Marquand; it’s a line of dialogue later..

Lucas: we’ll, I don’t know if we even need to explain it. The worst thing about that is you get a letter in starlog magazine. Big deal

Marquand: he made it, that’s the answer!

Lucas: that’s not going to drop the audience out of the film. People aren’t going to stand up and say “I just don’t buy that, I’m leaving” but you will get lots of letters, so we’ll make a form letter explaining that luke made it

Kasdan: maybe it should be a new color?

Lucas: yes, it could be totally different looking. We can work that out. But the idea running throughout the whole trilogy is; first he’s given his fathers laser sword, because his father lost it in a fight with Ben Kenobi: Ben cut his hand off and vader fell into the volcano, so Ben then pried the lazer sword out of his hand and kept it for the son. So then what the father did was cut his sons hand with the laser sword off - and that was a way of severing the relationship between father and son. Not only did Luke lose his weapon and carry his sword for his father. Now he is not doing that anymore. In this one, he’s built his own. He has built his own laser sword; he is his own man, he is not a son anymore. He is an equal

When was the Deleted Cave scene filmed? Based on this conversation, you would think the deleted scene was filmed purposefully to appease the people who would "send letters" and was never meant to be in the movie from the get go...but that doesn't make sense to purposefully waste a lot of money and time just to appease some fans who mayu have questions, does it?

 

[Gregatron]

When was the Deleted Cave scene filmed? Based on this conversation, you would think the deleted scene was filmed purposefully to appease the people who would "send letters" and was never meant to be in the movie from the get go...but that doesn't make sense to purposefully waste a lot of money and time just to appease some fans who mayu have questions, does it?

Late in the game, since the Yuma stunt was cleaned up to become the ISYHCANL version, then modified with the electronics and sliding clamp card for the cave scene.

 

[CopperRevan]

This is a plausible theory. Do we know that the textured tape was on the prop at the time of filming the sandstorm scene? My guess has always been that the thin tape either peeled off or was damaged, and so they quickly grabbed a replacement.

It may well be that the plan was just to cobble together a prop from leftover ESB Graflex parts, but Lucas reconsidered reusing the Graflex design during that first day on-set. Or perhaps Hamill was upset at being shown the prop just prior to filming, and seeing that he’d have to deal with those awkward and painful grips yet again for the duel sequence, so he requested a change.

Maybe, just by Hamill asking the question waas enough to turn on the switch in Lucas' brain...in other words, if it's too close to his fathers lightsaber and the actor notices it right away, most certainly the fans will question it too. It seems absurd that if the original intention was to have the Obi/V2 become Lukes ROTJ saber then the production team somehow overlooked it on day one with Lucas fully involved with everything, especially an object so detrimental to the plot and representing Luke following His fathers same path. I mean, when they film the throne room scene and he repeats the act by cutting off Vaders arm, he looks at his own then throws down the saber...If this was all planned from the beginning it then makes the original filming error on set that much more questionable. Obvious miscommunication or Lucas still hadn't made up his mind on what he was really going for. Anyways, they made the right choice in the end and that is all we could really ask for....lol

 

[Captain Dunsel]

This is a plausible theory. Do we know that the textured tape was on the prop at the time of filming the sandstorm scene? My guess has always been that the thin tape either peeled off or was damaged, and so they quickly grabbed a replacement.

It may well be that the plan was just to cobble together a prop from leftover ESB Graflex parts, but Lucas reconsidered reusing the Graflex design during that first day on-set. Or perhaps Hamill was upset at being shown the prop just prior to filming, and seeing that he’d have to deal with those awkward and painful grips yet again for the duel sequence, so he requested a change.

I’ve only seen the one well-known photo of the sandstorm sequence featuring the GRAFLEX that has been previously shown in this thread. There is no way to make out the details on the clamp, etc., unfortunately.

 

[Halliwax]

That would, I think, add even more evidence that the use of the GRAFLEX was intentional (taking the time to cast it for the R2 stunt, etc) and not some act of negligence.

I think it’s also safe to assume that the hero that showed up on Day One (Skywalker Ranch Hikt) had time between being cast and showing up on set for these additional details (new textured mylar on the clamp, etc) to be added for filming.

Completely agree, somewhere some one messed up.

The casts are in the exact orientation as dagobah, missing red button and all

Very crapy chrome paint job.. and flashing everywhere.

I have a gut feeling though.. by the time the cameras were rolling the V3’s were already cast and ready to go. Just the way the order production works

I could be completely wrong.. but now I believe and this is just my theory, I could be completely wrong. But that the graflex was on his belt by accident in that photo and Hamill was correcting the costume director

Again zero proof, I just find it hard to believe it would have snuck by

But it is Star Wars anything could have happened

I still to this day want to know what’s hanging on his belt in thr r2 projection scene “I present you with these 2 droids, both hard working and will server you quite well”

Sometimes it looks like the v3 cast.. but when the camera flips “what did he say?!” If you look I swear I can see the v1 hero control box…

 

[Halliwax]

When was the Deleted Cave scene filmed? Based on this conversation, you would think the deleted scene was filmed purposefully to appease the people who would "send letters" and was never meant to be in the movie from the get go...but that doesn't make sense to purposefully waste a lot of money and time just to appease some fans who mayu have questions, does it?

Book says dec 18, 1982 after the Christmas party. I just recently learned and I mean like last week, Joe Johnston was under the hood.

This explains why in the early 90s when the cave scene was just a rumor, mark Hamill was asked at a con about the infamous scene being filmed and Hamill denied any claims

We all questioned Hamill’s memory.. he wasn’t lying.. that’s not him building the hero.. that’s Johnston himself

Pretty wicked!

 

[Halliwax]

This is a plausible theory. Do we know that the textured tape was on the prop at the time of filming the sandstorm scene? My guess has always been that the thin tape either peeled off or was damaged, and so they quickly grabbed a replacement.

It may well be that the plan was just to cobble together a prop from leftover ESB Graflex parts, but Lucas reconsidered reusing the Graflex design during that first day on-set. Or perhaps Hamill was upset at being shown the prop just prior to filming, and seeing that he’d have to deal with those awkward and painful grips yet again for the duel sequence, so he requested a change.

From what I’ve seen, I believe the diamond tape was added to display the prop in public.

 

[Halliwax]

I’ve only seen the one well-known photo of the sandstorm sequence featuring the GRAFLEX that has been previously shown in this thread. There is no way to make out the details on the clamp, etc., unfortunately.

I do think the Kobold is flipped at this time. Some casts are solid, some were rotocast for the air canon

But those solid cats.. where the Kobold kits is nothing but a big blob of a mess…

Do even know why they went through the hassle of painting them to leave the massive blobs there..

 

[CopperRevan]

Book says dec 18, 1982 after the Christmas party. I just recently learned and I mean like last week, Joe Johnston was under the hood.

This explains why in the early 90s when the cave scene was just a rumor, mark Hamill was asked at a con about the infamous scene being filmed and Hamill denied any claims

We all questioned Hamill’s memory.. he wasn’t lying.. that’s not him building the hero.. that’s Johnston himself

Pretty wicked!

This is mind blowing to me...i had no idea

 

[Halliwax]

I’m sorry guys, my mind isn’t what it use to be… so maybe you guys can help me with time frame windows here.. trying to figure out if the resin V3’s were made and around during the sand storm scene.. I’m NOW thinking no…

Sand storm scene

Sand storm scene filmed on Jan 11 1982

Yuma scenes filmed in apirl 1982

So it’s very possible that between those months the v3 were cast, and the metal yuma machined..

Why am I so confused right now?

 

[thd9791]

Thanks for answering us TWICE halliwax

And thank you for that tidbit of information, it is truly enlightening. Makes sense, other props were disassembled for molding, like the muppet blaster. The v3 cast has bits added to make it “complete” like the card, making it easier to mold too… less clay.

I still say it was meant to be used but either Mark or someone thought it looked too close and wouldn’t be a dumb as a doorknob obvious “new laser sword”

The turnaround and following use, molding and machining of the Obi wan style saber makes sense to me.

That chin! Joe J has that perfect chin, makes sense it was him

 

[CopperRevan]

Honestly, the more these questions come up about timing and everything, as well as intent, just to me makes it more likely than not, that what we are seeing here is a complete discombobulated mess but the info that has been presented to us is a sytematically, thoughtfully organized plan of action by the genius himself, George Lucas.

Think about it. There are very few people in this world humble enough to put on their resume's that they are weak in certain areas or made a ton of mistakes in life. Most, just list their strengths because they want the perception to be they are qualified for the job and need very little to no training in order to do it. By no means am i implying Lucas is incompetent but what is leaked to us may not be anywhere near the whole truth. How many actors would willingly want to work for someone they felt couldn't provide direction? This in no way takes away from the genius of Lucas.

I love music and i write songs lyrically. In my mind i've composed the whole song from rythym to melody and harmony. The problem is that even though i have a great ear i can't practically carry out myself what i want everything to sound like. This means i have to hire a band and try to direct them based on what i'm hearing in my mind, my vision, for the song and i haven't provided any sheet music for anybody to physically read. In order for the song to come together i'm depending on professionals that i hire to collaborate with to quickly and efficiently "know" what i'm going for. This is going to take many sessions and mistakes but do i really want to record all those mistakes for later, knowing this song will be released to the public if i want to keep producing albums and want the best of the best musicians to work for me to get it done? Ultimately, if the song gets released and people love it then i look like a genius and maybe i was , or my vision for the song was, but as a composer i depended on a ton of people to make it happen who were the actual geniuses and i'm sure everyone in their own minds were saying" this guy has no idea what he really wants" because the more info he's feeding us, along the way he's getting more revelation to make it even better than he originally thought...especially after having the talent in front of him that allowed him to do more than he thought he could. To be able to keep track of everything is next to impossible as Leia tells Tarken(paraphrase) "the more you tighten your grip, the more that slips through your fingers"...in this case, his mind.

This is not to bash Lucas, he's just human but i'm really grateful if this is indeed the case and i could just be really far off in my assessment, but i'm pleased ROTJ came out the way it did....with a boat load of cool lightsabers and a coherent story.

 

[Halliwax]

Thanks for answering us TWICE halliwax

And thank you for that tidbit of information, it is truly enlightening. Makes sense, other props were disassembled for molding, like the muppet blaster. The v3 cast has bits added to make it “complete” like the card, making it easier to mold too… less clay.

I still say it was meant to be used but either Mark or someone thought it looked too close and wouldn’t be a dumb as a doorknob obvious “new laser sword”

The turnaround and following use, molding and machining of the Obi wan style saber makes sense to me.

That chin! Joe J has that perfect chin, makes sense it was him

When I learned it was Joe Johnston I nearly flipped lol

 

[Halliwax]

Honestly, the more these questions come up about timing and everything, as well as intent, just to me makes it more likely than not, that what we are seeing here is a complete discombobulated mess but the info that has been presented to us is a sytematically, thoughtfully organized plan of action by the genius himself, George Lucas.

Think about it. There are very few people in this world humble enough to put on their resume's that they are weak in certain areas or made a ton of mistakes in life. Most, just list their strengths because they want the perception to be they are qualified for the job and need very little to no training in order to do it. By no means am i implying Lucas is incompetent but what is leaked to us may not be anywhere near the whole truth. How many actors would willingly want to work for someone they felt couldn't provide direction? This in no way takes away from the genius of Lucas.

I love music and i write songs lyrically. In my mind i've composed the whole song from rythym to melody and harmony. The problem is that even though i have a great ear i can't practically carry out myself what i want everything to sound like. This means i have to hire a band and try to direct them based on what i'm hearing in my mind, my vision, for the song and i haven't provided any sheet music for anybody to physically read. In order for the song to come together i'm depending on professionals that i hire to collaborate with to quickly and efficiently "know" what i'm going for. This is going to take many sessions and mistakes but do i really want to record all those mistakes for later, knowing this song will be released to the public if i want to keep producing albums and want the best of the best musicians to work for me to get it done? Ultimately, if the song gets released and people love it then i look like a genius and maybe i was , or my vision for the song was, but as a composer i depended on a ton of people to make it happen who were the actual geniuses and i'm sure everyone in their own minds were saying" this guy has no idea what he really wants" because the more info he's feeding us, along the way he's getting more revelation to make it even better than he originally thought...especially after having the talent in front of him that allowed him to do more than he thought he could. To be able to keep track of everything is next to impossible as Leia tells Tarken(paraphrase) "the more you tighten your grip, the more that slips through your fingers"...in this case, his mind.

This is not to bash Lucas, he's just human but i'm really grateful if this is indeed the case and i could just be really far off in my assessment, but i'm pleased ROTJ came out the way it did....with a boat load of cool lightsabers and a coherent story.

I’m grateful we got a green lightsaber lol

 

[CopperRevan]

yeah, buddy...me too

 

[Halliwax]

Alley have you done a ranch saber replica? I would love to see you post it here if you have

 

[teecrooz]

I thought Randy Johnson was used as the stand in.

Here are the pictures and the captions from the Rinzler book. Captions for these images are confusing, especially with the text.