VADER EXPERTS

Discussion in 'Star Wars Costumes and Props' started by HAL9000, Jun 21, 2006.

  1. HAL9000

    HAL9000 Sr Member

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  2. GundamZeppelin

    GundamZeppelin Sr Member

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    :eek the size of the helmet should turn this in to an interesting post. And the lenses are grey instead of the shade of red you see on 98% of the ANH lids you see out there.
     
  3. RKW

    RKW Sr Member

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    Interestingly the dome tabs don't appear to be part of the casting.
     
  4. SithLord

    SithLord Sr Member

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    <div class='quotetop'></div>


    This is not an original casting. I wish it was....but it's not.


    They say the tabs are separate but that doesn't mean anything...I have tabs from that era and could easily mount them on a casting and call it original. And if they have the original faceplate then where's the helmet?

    EDIT: They do claim ownship to it.
     
  5. syborwolf

    syborwolf Well-Known Member

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    <div class='quotetop'></div>
    Do you have any proof to back up this statement?

    <div class='quotetop'></div>
    Are you kidding me? You are kidding, right?
    If this is an original casting of the ANH faceplate, your entire Vader world (built on the GH ANH helmet) would come crashing down.

    Lets here your proof.

    Joe
     
  6. jimbobond

    jimbobond New Member

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    I was at Elstree props last week and they do claim to have a newly found and original anh Vader mask..

    I have found both Elstree props and heritage very genuine and knowledgable on what props they have, there seems to be 2 sides to elstree props 1 side that is a business and the other side to preserve what props have been found at elstree.

    There is a contact email on there site so maybe contact them I'm sure you will get an honest answer.

    I was lucky enough to see there original c3po head and there ROTJ Luke light saber, the head was appartently screen used but the saber was one of a batch made for rotj but rejected due to an imperfection.

    I'm a massive Vader fan and asked about the vader but alas it was in safe keeping BUT I have asked to arrange to go and see this at a later date, if the dream comes true I will go on a picture frenzy.........

    Its a sad reality that in my years collecting props we all start to view things with a guilty untill proven genuine approach, trust me i have been ripped off big time in the past.

    BUT I HAVE A STRANGE WARM FEELING ABOUT THIS ONE. :)

    Watch this space ;)
     
  7. RKW

    RKW Sr Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>(jimbobond @ Jun 21 2006, 10:40 PM) [snapback]1265361[/snapback]</div>
    Well this is encouraging news. If you do get to see it and are allowed to take pics please make sure you get some good close up shots of the front and side of the mouth so we can makeout any identifying dents.
     
  8. Clutch

    Clutch Master Member

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    And no barrel distortion............
     
  9. SithLord

    SithLord Sr Member

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    Yes, the people at Elstree are very knowledgable about props, but that doesn't change the fact that this mask is not an original. This is not an idle opinion I'm throwing out here.
     
  10. Qui-Gonzalez

    Qui-Gonzalez Master Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>(SithLord @ Jun 21 2006, 07:58 PM) [snapback]1265455[/snapback]</div>
    It may not be, but your detractors want you to qualify yourself when you say it "is not an original".
     
  11. SithLord

    SithLord Sr Member

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    It is not from the original mold...that's what an original ANH would be.
     
  12. Qui-Gonzalez

    Qui-Gonzalez Master Member

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    So wait, the studio that took part in the making of the OT does not know what an original ANH Vader faceplate looks like?
     
  13. SithLord

    SithLord Sr Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>(Qui-Gonzalez @ Jun 21 2006, 08:26 PM) [snapback]1265473[/snapback]</div>

    Perhaps they do, but this is not one of them.
     
  14. Qui-Gonzalez

    Qui-Gonzalez Master Member

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    Based on...what, exactly? It is easy to pic apart another alledged "Original Piece" that I won't mention, but until some more evidence is seen from Elstree, it is awfully hard to say this or that is or isn't original.
     
  15. GINO

    GINO Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I could care less about wether it was cast from the original mold, taken from a film used mask, taken from an unused mask leftover from the production, etc..

    What I would care about is does it have ALL the features that an unmodified original casting should have.

    No way to tell from that small pic though.
     
  16. SithLord

    SithLord Sr Member

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    I find it hard to believe, Gino, that you would not care what it was? Surely if it was original, then we'd be getting into the details that are relevant and those that are not, wouldn't you say?

    Qui, I'm not actually basing my statement on the photograph. If you like, PM me and we can discuss it further....this sort of gets into a messy bit of business :unsure
     
  17. GINO

    GINO Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Post it here. We're all big boys. I think we can handle a little messy business.
     
  18. Qui-Gonzalez

    Qui-Gonzalez Master Member

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    I agree. If you air a statement like that out to us big boys, it should be backed up in the same manner. There are many people who are now curious about your statement, least of all me.
     
  19. SithLord

    SithLord Sr Member

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    Alright.

    I've heard conflicting firsthand accounts of its origin. They both turned out not to be true. If the origin is not true, neither can be the claim of originality.
     
  20. Darth Detroit

    Darth Detroit Sr Member

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    I couldnt base my opinion on just one picture.
     
  21. Boba Frett

    Boba Frett Sr Member

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    Is there any way of getting better pics from Elstree?
    It's hard to make judgements from just one small pic.
     
  22. HAL9000

    HAL9000 Sr Member

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    That is a good point.

    If they are so convinced of its lineage then why are there no pictures
    as good and detailed as the treadwell droid which they have?
     
  23. lambotour

    lambotour Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    <div class='quotetop'>(Boba Frett @ Jun 21 2006, 10:05 PM) [snapback]1265545[/snapback]</div>
    I'm not sure they will be willing to help out with anymore pics. I sent this email to them:

    Hello,

    I am in awe that you have an original Vader ANH helmet. I didn't believe one existed
    outside of the Lucasfilm archives. There has been a debate for some time about the
    tabs on top of the faceplate. Would it be possible for you to take a closeup picture
    of the tabs and either email it to me or post it on your website?

    Thanks,

    Pete

    And this was Paul's reply (apparently Paul's dad is the person who owns that helmet):

    Hi Peter, George hasn't got one from anh :) problem is, we know what the tabs are,
    and noone else does. If we release pics and details, people will make fakes and
    try to pass them off as real, which will devalue dads. He'd never sell it though,
    but its kept in the bank, safer.
     
  24. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    I have seen pics of this mask WITH the helmet on. Judging from these pics, it looked like the real deal.

    Tom
     
  25. RKW

    RKW Sr Member

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    Well this Paul guy from Elstree saying that the helmet is not ANH makes this quote from their website seem a bit silly "Note the bits on top, only ORIGINALÂ’s have these fitted, anything moulded is a copy or fake." since the ESB helmets have the dome tabs included in the castings.

    Vadermania, was it an ANH dome?
     
  26. gonk27

    gonk27 Sr Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>(RKW @ Jun 22 2006, 08:58 AM) [snapback]1265730[/snapback]</div>

    I don't think Paul's saying their Elstree prop isn't from ANH, when he says George hasn't got one I think he means Lucas hasn't got one.


    Jeremy
     
  27. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    Yes it was. I've seen those pics even before Paul posted the one on his webpage.

    <div class='quotetop'>(RKW @ Jun 22 2006, 08:58 AM) [snapback]1265730[/snapback]</div>
     
  28. HAL9000

    HAL9000 Sr Member

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    Supposing, just supposing this was legit...

    It could only be the 2nd finished helmet for ANH.
    There's far too much documentation about the 'hero' piece ending
    up in the U.S.

    That or a tour.

    to quote a certain Jedi:
    "there's something else behind all this"
     
  29. vadermania

    vadermania Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe that there is anyone in this galaxy who can tell you exactly (and proof) how many Vader helmets were produced for ANH. Prowse writes is his new book about the changing of the eyelenses from grey to amber. Maybe this is one of the first masks they used at the beginning of the shoot...

    <div class='quotetop'>(HAL9000 @ Jun 22 2006, 09:13 AM) [snapback]1265735[/snapback]</div>
     
  30. Darth Kahnt

    Darth Kahnt Sr Member

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    Bottom line: we need more pictures.
     
  31. Darth Detroit

    Darth Detroit Sr Member

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    Since the ESB mask was casted from the ANH, couldnt we verify measurements that way- if it is a ANH mask?
     
  32. SithLord

    SithLord Sr Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>(vadermania @ Jun 22 2006, 05:49 AM) [snapback]1265742[/snapback]</div>

    Three original helmets were made. That's it.

    Ask Elstree where that mask came from.

    My guess at this point is that it is a casting from an ESB that's been modified. I have a larger image of this mask and the tubes are shaped more like ESB than ANH....but again it doesn't matter what the image shows. If the story keeps changing about where this mask came from, and each story is not based in fact, then there's no basis for this mask being original.
     
  33. dcarty

    dcarty Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Those are good points, furthermore I recall reading somewhere that it wasn't unusual for a few copies to sneak out the back door as souvenirs in addition to those made purely for the production (I thought it was in the Brian Muir interview over at Jez's site but I just looked and didn't see it). So it potentially could have been cast from the original mold at the time of production. More pics and a cheek point-to-cheek point measurement would be heavenly.

    Cheers,

    Dave C



    <div class='quotetop'>(vadermania @ Jun 22 2006, 03:49 AM) [snapback]1265742[/snapback]</div>
    [/b][/quote]
     
  34. vaderdarth

    vaderdarth Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I'd be very cautious about just buying this story as it has changed quite often from the same source. There is definitely something "off" about it and that is about as far as I'm willing to venture on that subject. Without holding the thing in hand, you'd never really know what is what. I'm quite sure the owners aren't willing to allow close examination either. Not knocking that decision, but it's without a doubt needed to prove any originality of the piece. For all we know, Don Post Studios sculpted an all new helmet based off the original helmet sculpt and it eventually evolved into the DP Standard vader (tiny baby sized helmet) we all knew and loved back in the 80's. Who is to say that one of the helmets in that production process wasn't used and discarded or had stolen from DPS??? It's so hard to tell without better photos and consistent documentation to make any definitive conclusions about this helmet. That is only my opinion of course.

    Peace,

    Dave :)
     
  35. SithLord

    SithLord Sr Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>(dcarty @ Jun 22 2006, 01:53 PM) [snapback]1265975[/snapback]</div>

    Although it's definitely possible copies of the originals were made and snuck out the door, Elstree is claiming this is an original from the original source and that it's from the original mold...implicit when they say it's an original, which it is not. This mask did not come from the original mold. It might be a copy of an original, however. But there are real tabs on it (if in fact they are original tabs, which can be confirmed upon closer inspection).
     
  36. syborwolf

    syborwolf Well-Known Member

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    <div class='quotetop'></div>
    Once again....Where is your proof?

    If it comes down to a credibilty issue, I'd have to say I'm leaning way towards Elstree's claims.



    Joe
     
  37. Qui-Gonzalez

    Qui-Gonzalez Master Member

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    Without more pics, this will never go any further than claims from Elstree.
     
  38. HAL9000

    HAL9000 Sr Member

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    <div class='quotetop'></div>
    Because of the name 'Elstree'?
     
  39. SithLord

    SithLord Sr Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>(syborwolf @ Jun 22 2006, 03:22 PM) [snapback]1266047[/snapback]</div>
    Once again....Where is your proof?

    If it comes down to a credibilty issue, I'd have to say I'm leaning way towards Elstree's claims.



    Joe
    [/b][/quote]




    I'm not making any claims. I'm stating facts.


    You want proof? Ask Esltree studios where that mask (or helmet) came from. Then we'll talk some more....it already has gone further than Elstree. They are not the final word on what is an original prop or not.
     
  40. PantheraGem

    PantheraGem Sr Member

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    What does everyone think of these? :confused
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  41. jimbobond

    jimbobond New Member

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    I could understand all the fuss about this helmet if elstree where planning on doing an SDS and having a run of these, but my opion is that this a nest egg for them and if say it does go to christies they will have done there home work.

    This helmet is worth mega bucks and I can't fault them for wanting to protect it.

    Your not talking about some dodgy prop casters here, these guys live and breath Elstree and have always been honest about what they sell and do, well to me they where.

    We had 20 guys from the UKGarrison there last week boogled eyed over there props and between us we know our stuff and I'm very confident about this being original.

    Norman and Paul where gracious and great hosts and could talk for hours about there work.

    There is no need for them to do a con trick or lie about any of there props.

    The problem is we as collectors have all seen the dark side of our hobby and view the world with Grey coloured lenses :rolleyes (sorry about that)
     
  42. SithLord

    SithLord Sr Member

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    Those aren't original tabs but are they from the Elstree mask? If from that mask, yes they could have been added later on so that that by itself would not discount it as being original. If they are supposed to be original tabs that were added to the mask during the production, then I would say sorry that's not the case. Interesting tabs, however...they look home-made :).
     
  43. SithLord

    SithLord Sr Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>(jimbobond @ Jun 22 2006, 05:27 PM) [snapback]1266136[/snapback]</div>

    Christies is not infallable.

    I'm sorry, but unless this is yet another different helmet from what I heard Elstree refer to, this is not worth megabucks. Because it is not an original ANH.

    Although 20 people visited Elstree, none of them saw the helmet, correct?

    This is not the first time we've seen questionable claims coming from Elstree Studios. What about that "screen-used" ROTJ matt painting we saw on Ebay? The one with the view of the rebel hanger.

    Norman and Paul I know are great guys and they do a lot for their community and for the public in preserving the heritage of Star Wars. But you guys asked for the reason and I gave it. Unless they have more than one original ANH Darth Vader helmet, and if this is their only original ANH Darth Vader helmet, then it is, in fact, not what they say it is.

    I know they have a lot of history with Star Wars and some props....some definitely original, many replicas. I'm not trying to question the entire studio or it's history or anything like that. I don't care what they want to do with that helmet. I've only given what I know is a truthful assessment of what that helmet is.
     
  44. PantheraGem

    PantheraGem Sr Member

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    Those are just some tabs I have. I was just asking about them because someone was already talking about the tabs in this thread, and I didn't want to make a thread on just those. Sorry for any confusion. :D
     
  45. jimbobond

    jimbobond New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>(SithLord @ Jun 22 2006, 10:31 PM) [snapback]1266140[/snapback]</div>
    Could they have been different tabs on another mask, maybe it didn't work or they could have tryed something later on in filming? There is that out take where the dome falls off when doing the Obi vader fight scene. They could tryed a different fixing late on, I'm always messing aroung with different fixings for stuff.

    My esb vader that I owned had the male female connector and was always sturdy but in esb when vader is on the platform in bespin the dome wobles around in the wind :unsure these guys must have trying new things every 5 minutes.
     
  46. RKW

    RKW Sr Member

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    I'm getting a bit confused SL as to what your idea of original is? Just because they say it's original doesn't mean to me that it's the actual screen used helmet. It could mean that it's another casting made from the original mold.

    You keep saying I know this as fact which should mean that you have the necessary evidence to post it here to back up what you're saying.

    In regards to those tabs, they are not from the helmet but tabs that PnatheraGem discovered. The pattern is the same as the originals it's just the overall width that's different.
     
  47. cking

    cking Sr Member

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    Hi everyone,

    I contacted Paul at Elstree and asked if he could let me know about this helmet. Here's his reply (posted with his permission)

    "Hi Chris,
    Dad got it from Arthur Muir, Brian's dad, and Nick had it in his private collection for many years. Nick was licenced by LucasFilm to store and preserve their props in the UK. He was the ONLY collector ever to receive such recognition, from other production companies too, like Fox, Paramount, Cinergie etc. It's not for sale, and dad won't release more pictures as that would solve the mystery of what the tabs are on top, and open the floodgates to copies. Brian and Linda the sculptors have never used an Apple computer by the way. Dad has it safely locked away in a vault. We will be selling the original C3PO head from ANH out of the landspeeder scenes this year, that will start the gossip flying .


    I can't wait to see what the C3PO head sells for.

    Chris
     
  48. Clutch

    Clutch Master Member

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    So he's implying that those aren't apple computer tabs....
     
  49. cking

    cking Sr Member

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    Yes, he's saying that the tabs aren't apple computer tabs.

    Chris
     
  50. HAL9000

    HAL9000 Sr Member

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    Nobody, not even Elstree Props themselves, should take the investigative tone here as hostile. We all know that the ANH Vader is probably one of, if not the, holy grails of prop collecting. It's bound to get the blood rising
    and the back arched.

    We'd all be liars if we said we don't covet it.

    And I don't think I'm alone in saying that we all want to believe
    that it would show up in a 'caring' place like Elstree Props.

    But, this isn't the kind of item you can show in a small teasing way without inviting fierce
    (informed) opinion.
     

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