Ultimate 66 inch Enterprise, RShanko
- Thread starter RShanko
- Start date
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Mycroft Holmes
Well-Known Member
Ron,
Jim Key has asked me to post this for him. He has tried to get his account re activated since the server move and has not been able to.
“If I could be allowed to offer a few comments about your ‘Ultimate 66” Enterprise”, I would ask that you accept these as critiques, not knock downs; more importantly an attempt to get at the truth.
When Mustang showed me these castings, I was then convinced that these were not knock-offs of my kit. So if the apology never got through from him to the maker of this new 66” version, I offer it. What sold me on the difference was noticing the flat spot on the underside of the lower primary saucer edge and some differences in the secondary hull. The flat spot reminded me of the Ertl kit, which is definitely not correct. So from an ultimate claim, you need to start by fixing that. I separated the rings and power domes from the nacelle body for servicing, but you did not.
My pedigree comes from the original 11 foot miniature by way of Ed Miarecki and the 1992 restoration, then through three decimal measurement maps of every square inch of the original by Gary Kerr, onto myself and Mark Dickson/Petri Bloomqvist(sp?) for the SLA geometry of the rapid prototyping of many detail parts. Unless you use this method, anything carved from foam is already worlds from being symmetrical ( even less symmetrical than the original unsymmetrical 11 foot miniature ). I’m curious who your sources were, and how many of them have Gary Kerr’s now publicly released info to thank.
As to picture comparisons, I can offer my website and perhaps a few postings here. How to do it side by side, is a little hard to do, unless you wish to come to my studio, and place it up against one of mine and shoot it high definition, which I wouldn’t be opposed to. My beauty shots of our 1st. 66” miniature can be found at: http://www.customreplicas.com/Enterprise.htm. My only regret is that we didn’t get to post the video footage of the nacelles running, which clearly show the fan blades and how they create the interrupter pattern. The BBC documentary of it that was used for the TREK special shows it being as close to the original as can be imagined. Some day I’ll put that up.
Also, I tried to really see into your deflector dish and probe, which are tell-tale ‘either right or wrong’ indicators of ultimate claims, since the probe was replaced by second season, and the dish underwent numerous refinements. A clear picture of that would be helpful to the comparison process.
Have you finished you hangar bay clam shell doors? I hadn’t seen them either ( Just wondering ).
I haven’t been able to really judge yours as I can only seem to find 1 shot of it done with graphics, and could see all of them to really know if you have completed the model or not. I have noticed that your nacelle trenches seem to have one color gray, which has been proven to me from archival imagery, to be a different representation with the upper and lower edges being body color and only the inner flat side being gray. Your lower shield area gray is too dark as well, and should only be a value darker than the body color. And as to the body color, I can only comment that I agree with others that better photography in a less yellow influenced lighting would help reveal what you did there. Can’t make out if the green cast is there or not.
I wish I could present my entire line of facts for the lighting of nacelle power domes, but the essence of my statement here is, that they were not tinted orange ( inner or outer dome ). Brian Makepeace has the definitive explanation ( best I heard thus far ) on how it actually happened. Perhaps you should contact him to see if he could explain it better than I. You can contact him here: bmakepeace@adelphia.net Tell him that I sent you.
When MR did their 33” collectible, HMS, Brian Makepeace and myself, all collaborated on that project, so I can speak with some certainty here. They did not do any dome tinting and the colorations were worked out over several different occasions, were test builds came in from overseas, and we keep making refinements to get it right to our source material, including high res. 1st season beauty photography of the original miniature. MR’s 33” is in my opinion, about 95% to 98% correct, making it the best public licensed collectible ever made. Not a plug, just a fact. My large one is even more accurate than that, only because of nacelles and correct length of the nacelles, which MR wasn’t going to change in their tooling when we got onboard. Other than that, it’s a great investment to purchase.
As to the Rod.com deal that was being negotiated back in 2002/2003, we got all the way through the legals, and were nearly ready to sign, when he decided to stop his business in order to better investigate the Paramount interference over his having the right to sell Trek collectibles. So we never signed. He was going to sell the kit at $4,000.00 plus delivery, off a $2,500.00 wholesale deal, so I ask who was really making the money here? My price in the past has been high, but then I have a cost of nearly $1,000.00 to produce these kits with stand, and full electronics. Any provider wants to be paid what they are worth, and unless you are making it all yourself, then you can only really control so much of the final cost. I’m amazed at others efforts at reproducing this half scale miniature, as it was a year of my life, at almost $60,000.00 to develop. When I hear how inexpensively others make it at, I have only to ask, “how, show me, please?”
And Sean Sides, so far as I seen, is the only modeler that I can say has built a faithful reconstruction of our kit. He followed all the construction tips and got it right. I wish I could have been there when he was showing it at Wonderfest. George Takei seemed happy with it as well.
I would agree with Mark that unless you make a side by side comparison of your release to mine or even the original, it’s hard to make a boast of the “ultimate 66” Enterprise”. Again, not a knock down, but simply an observation, which I had to equally prove to everyone when I was making ours back in 2001/2002. It seems all of that has been forgotten. We even covered all of this in our Modelers Resource issues #47 and #51, several years back. More importantly for you might be the showing of yours next to the original with archival shots of it for direct comparison, not necessarily against mine. I did what I could that way too, but was under a confidentiality agreement to not show Ed’s restoration pix or any of the Paramount archival shots either. So I showed what was publicly available, at quite a lower resolution, than I wanted to show.
I have a picture of Greg Jein standing with me at Rod’s convention display years ago, where Greg admitted to me that I had smoked his with all the last minute data. Coming from Greg ( as humble a guy and secure in his own artistry ) that was the ultimate compliment. To me he will always be one of my heroes for all that he has done. Ed Miarecki too almost wept when he walked in and saw ours 90% done at the time we were courting Rod.com. He looked for all the clues and just kept smiling. Apparently I passed all of those test as well, and he should know, as he had his hands on and in the original. Again, you have to surround your project with those who lived in the original to really get the benefit of knowing all the nuances.
Well, I’ve rambled on quite a bit here. If anyone wishes to contact me for more discussion on this, feel free. I’m at: customreplicas@ca.rr.com. I’d post myself, but the mods haven’t returned an answer to me about re-joining the boards.
If interest in this continues, I’ll dig out some of the nacelle fan blade shots and show them on the board.
Thanks for indulging me,
Jim Key – Custom Replicas”
Jim Key has asked me to post this for him. He has tried to get his account re activated since the server move and has not been able to.
“If I could be allowed to offer a few comments about your ‘Ultimate 66” Enterprise”, I would ask that you accept these as critiques, not knock downs; more importantly an attempt to get at the truth.
When Mustang showed me these castings, I was then convinced that these were not knock-offs of my kit. So if the apology never got through from him to the maker of this new 66” version, I offer it. What sold me on the difference was noticing the flat spot on the underside of the lower primary saucer edge and some differences in the secondary hull. The flat spot reminded me of the Ertl kit, which is definitely not correct. So from an ultimate claim, you need to start by fixing that. I separated the rings and power domes from the nacelle body for servicing, but you did not.
My pedigree comes from the original 11 foot miniature by way of Ed Miarecki and the 1992 restoration, then through three decimal measurement maps of every square inch of the original by Gary Kerr, onto myself and Mark Dickson/Petri Bloomqvist(sp?) for the SLA geometry of the rapid prototyping of many detail parts. Unless you use this method, anything carved from foam is already worlds from being symmetrical ( even less symmetrical than the original unsymmetrical 11 foot miniature ). I’m curious who your sources were, and how many of them have Gary Kerr’s now publicly released info to thank.
As to picture comparisons, I can offer my website and perhaps a few postings here. How to do it side by side, is a little hard to do, unless you wish to come to my studio, and place it up against one of mine and shoot it high definition, which I wouldn’t be opposed to. My beauty shots of our 1st. 66” miniature can be found at: http://www.customreplicas.com/Enterprise.htm. My only regret is that we didn’t get to post the video footage of the nacelles running, which clearly show the fan blades and how they create the interrupter pattern. The BBC documentary of it that was used for the TREK special shows it being as close to the original as can be imagined. Some day I’ll put that up.
Also, I tried to really see into your deflector dish and probe, which are tell-tale ‘either right or wrong’ indicators of ultimate claims, since the probe was replaced by second season, and the dish underwent numerous refinements. A clear picture of that would be helpful to the comparison process.
Have you finished you hangar bay clam shell doors? I hadn’t seen them either ( Just wondering ).
I haven’t been able to really judge yours as I can only seem to find 1 shot of it done with graphics, and could see all of them to really know if you have completed the model or not. I have noticed that your nacelle trenches seem to have one color gray, which has been proven to me from archival imagery, to be a different representation with the upper and lower edges being body color and only the inner flat side being gray. Your lower shield area gray is too dark as well, and should only be a value darker than the body color. And as to the body color, I can only comment that I agree with others that better photography in a less yellow influenced lighting would help reveal what you did there. Can’t make out if the green cast is there or not.
I wish I could present my entire line of facts for the lighting of nacelle power domes, but the essence of my statement here is, that they were not tinted orange ( inner or outer dome ). Brian Makepeace has the definitive explanation ( best I heard thus far ) on how it actually happened. Perhaps you should contact him to see if he could explain it better than I. You can contact him here: bmakepeace@adelphia.net Tell him that I sent you.
When MR did their 33” collectible, HMS, Brian Makepeace and myself, all collaborated on that project, so I can speak with some certainty here. They did not do any dome tinting and the colorations were worked out over several different occasions, were test builds came in from overseas, and we keep making refinements to get it right to our source material, including high res. 1st season beauty photography of the original miniature. MR’s 33” is in my opinion, about 95% to 98% correct, making it the best public licensed collectible ever made. Not a plug, just a fact. My large one is even more accurate than that, only because of nacelles and correct length of the nacelles, which MR wasn’t going to change in their tooling when we got onboard. Other than that, it’s a great investment to purchase.
As to the Rod.com deal that was being negotiated back in 2002/2003, we got all the way through the legals, and were nearly ready to sign, when he decided to stop his business in order to better investigate the Paramount interference over his having the right to sell Trek collectibles. So we never signed. He was going to sell the kit at $4,000.00 plus delivery, off a $2,500.00 wholesale deal, so I ask who was really making the money here? My price in the past has been high, but then I have a cost of nearly $1,000.00 to produce these kits with stand, and full electronics. Any provider wants to be paid what they are worth, and unless you are making it all yourself, then you can only really control so much of the final cost. I’m amazed at others efforts at reproducing this half scale miniature, as it was a year of my life, at almost $60,000.00 to develop. When I hear how inexpensively others make it at, I have only to ask, “how, show me, please?”
And Sean Sides, so far as I seen, is the only modeler that I can say has built a faithful reconstruction of our kit. He followed all the construction tips and got it right. I wish I could have been there when he was showing it at Wonderfest. George Takei seemed happy with it as well.
I would agree with Mark that unless you make a side by side comparison of your release to mine or even the original, it’s hard to make a boast of the “ultimate 66” Enterprise”. Again, not a knock down, but simply an observation, which I had to equally prove to everyone when I was making ours back in 2001/2002. It seems all of that has been forgotten. We even covered all of this in our Modelers Resource issues #47 and #51, several years back. More importantly for you might be the showing of yours next to the original with archival shots of it for direct comparison, not necessarily against mine. I did what I could that way too, but was under a confidentiality agreement to not show Ed’s restoration pix or any of the Paramount archival shots either. So I showed what was publicly available, at quite a lower resolution, than I wanted to show.
I have a picture of Greg Jein standing with me at Rod’s convention display years ago, where Greg admitted to me that I had smoked his with all the last minute data. Coming from Greg ( as humble a guy and secure in his own artistry ) that was the ultimate compliment. To me he will always be one of my heroes for all that he has done. Ed Miarecki too almost wept when he walked in and saw ours 90% done at the time we were courting Rod.com. He looked for all the clues and just kept smiling. Apparently I passed all of those test as well, and he should know, as he had his hands on and in the original. Again, you have to surround your project with those who lived in the original to really get the benefit of knowing all the nuances.
Well, I’ve rambled on quite a bit here. If anyone wishes to contact me for more discussion on this, feel free. I’m at: customreplicas@ca.rr.com. I’d post myself, but the mods haven’t returned an answer to me about re-joining the boards.
If interest in this continues, I’ll dig out some of the nacelle fan blade shots and show them on the board.
Thanks for indulging me,
Jim Key – Custom Replicas”
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imaginager
Sr Member
Main Entry: ul·ti·mate 
Pronunciation: '&l-t&-m&t
Function: adjective
1 a : most remote in space or time :lol
As one who has purchased more than one of Jim Key's kits, including his 1/2 scale E, I refrained from posting to this "Ultimate" thread, as I just thought it was a little silly. But, to be sure, there has been some crazy-talk going on.
There are probably only a couple of gentlemen who will ever get my Trek patronage. Jim K is one, and REL is the other.
Kits are what they are. This so-called "Ultimate" is certainly some kind of accomplishment. But, it would be easier to determine what kind with pics shot in the light of day.
Pronunciation: '&l-t&-m&t
Function: adjective
1 a : most remote in space or time :lol
As one who has purchased more than one of Jim Key's kits, including his 1/2 scale E, I refrained from posting to this "Ultimate" thread, as I just thought it was a little silly. But, to be sure, there has been some crazy-talk going on.
There are probably only a couple of gentlemen who will ever get my Trek patronage. Jim K is one, and REL is the other.
Kits are what they are. This so-called "Ultimate" is certainly some kind of accomplishment. But, it would be easier to determine what kind with pics shot in the light of day.
Commander Max
Sr Member
Well said Allen, I've seen pics of this build around the net. The last word I would use is "Ultimate" to describe it. A worthy fist build yes, but it has a very long way to go. This guy needs to get some humility, he is showing a poor model before some of the best builders in the world, and acting like it's the best and last thing out there. If he came out and said here is my E, what do you guys think, and how can I improve it(it isn't a recast, just look at it)? He would have gained respect, instead he choose to look like a fool. Very sad indeed, and even sadder that he runs from criticism.Main Entry: ul·ti·mate
Pronunciation: '&l-t&-m&t
Function: adjective
1 a : most remote in space or time :lol
As one who has purchased more than one of Jim Key's kits, including his 1/2 scale E, I refrained from posting to this "Ultimate" thread, as I just thought it was a little silly. But, to be sure, there has been some crazy-talk going on.
There are probably only a couple of gentlemen who will ever get my Trek patronage. Jim K is one, and REL is the other.
Kits are what they are. This so-called "Ultimate" is certainly some kind of accomplishment. But, it would be easier to determine what kind with pics shot in the light of day.
AnsonJames
Sr Member
What's with the animosity - there's absolutely no need for it.
The last time I looked this was a thread about Ron's Enterprise, not the Jim Keys version.
If you've got nothing worthy to say and you don't like Ron's Enterprise then find another topic to post in.
Anson
imaginager
Sr Member
Are you serious? You can't throw out a term like "Ultimate" and not understand that you're setting yourself up for extreme scrutiny. If I were in a position to need such a large replica of an iconic model, I can't imagine that I would purchase anything based on what's been shown in this thread. It is well known that Jim Key's version set the standard. So, for someone to put forward the claims that are in this thread, they need to understand that well informed folk need to see more evidence than what has been presented. This whole thread seems to me to contest Jim Key's replica, with the nod-wink of affordability. I, for one, would like to see how smooth the castings really are...better pics, please. I agree that bringing such a large replica to fruition is an enormous accomplishment. But, let's bring it back down to earth. If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is. And by the way, one purpose of a forum like this is to present different views in a civil manner. There is no rule that says I can't post something that disagrees with, or challenges another member.
Allan
Allan
Mycroft Holmes
Well-Known Member
Anson, you need to read this and the other threads Ron has stated here on this forum. Things like " ultimate 66" Enterprise " and " ready to rumble " are straight out calls for a war of words and pictures. Ron needs to chill out on his claims. They are misleading and arguably fraudulent in nature. We, as in Jim and I, are only answering his calls to put up or shut up. Jim put it all out there. Where all the data came from and explained why ours is more correct. If Ron can't stand on his own two feet on this matter then I guess he should not make these kind of claims. His data is based on pictures, hear say and I gasp when I say this, the AMT kit. Our data is what it is, Rock solid.
Maybe Ron should not try to come off so hot and heavy next time. If you don't like the response don't call us out.
Mark
Maybe Ron should not try to come off so hot and heavy next time. If you don't like the response don't call us out.
Mark
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USSCassiopeia
Active Member
Where is the detail? The only detail I see is on the surface, and that consists of very fine wrinkles. I don't see any clear windows - looking into the hull and seeing wires doesn't constitute 'detail'.
I'm sure they'll be knocking down your door for your ships....but I don't expect that they'll be in a purchasing mood.
:lol That's funny!
Listen, Ron, this is a project that probably 95% of people couldn't finish. You did good. I salute you for that. But this isn't the beat-all and end-all I've seen this from the start and I know for a fact that you merely blew up the Ertl Cutaway diagram to go by.
gofourindian
Well-Known Member
I agree with Anson. The only people that are coming off hot and heavy are you Mark and Allan. I personally saw this thread as Ron being proud of his build, which he has every right to be.
Also, I find it odd that you see the need to defend Jim Keys E version....something that "set the standard" for Enterprise replicas should need no defending and speak for itself. :unsure
What once was an interesting thread has turned to crap because of a few individuals trying to bring someone down...good going!
Also, I find it odd that you see the need to defend Jim Keys E version....something that "set the standard" for Enterprise replicas should need no defending and speak for itself. :unsure
What once was an interesting thread has turned to crap because of a few individuals trying to bring someone down...good going!
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USSCassiopeia
Active Member
If you look below, you will see that Ron himself has invited comparisons. That is being done.
"Lets get ready to rumble" means...
Put up some pix of your version.
We all want to see.
....to substantiate all claims, post some starship pix so we may be better informed, and judge for ourselves.
I look forward to seeing all the versions of giant starships in a lineup, but it'll never happen unless those others are willing.
It is up to you. I already put up pix of my version, and invite you to do the same.
A perfect side veiw of your starship will work.
As far as I know we have seen 66" starships from 4 designers..
Jim Key
Mike Moore..?
Greg Jein
and me,... but we never got to see those versions all together with a pic of the 11ft model to be able to have an informed opinion.
(Only 6ft starships)
That would be fun and interesting for all starship fans.
-Ron
Commander Max
Sr Member
Hot and heavy? Sorry man, Mark is only responding to claims made by Ron. Which is to be expected on a board like this. This board is composed of people at all levels, keep in mind that includes professionals(people who make a living making models). These guys are in the top of their field. They have access to material nobody knew existed, even the original models. Some guy comes out of the blue making all kinds of claims, is going to get scrutinized. All Ron had to do was to be less cocky, and willing to answer questions. And he would have a positive place on this board. Instead the moment Mark chimed in, Ron ran for the hills. So you guys are defending somebody who isn't there. It makes little sense. Let him defend himself, it could lead to something much better.
imaginager
Sr Member
As a longtime member (not that there's anything wrong with that :lol), I can tell you that you can't even see "hot and heavy" from here.
I guess there's a fine line between being proud and being boastful. I read it as quite arrogant and disrespectful.
I'm not defending Jim's E so much as I'm asking for better pics of Ron's "Ultimate".
Thanks! But, you know, Mark is right. Some of the claims Ron has made in this thread are misdleading, if not fraudulent. And, I can't help but wonder if the nerve we seem to have struck with you has something to do with Ron having his way with your pocketbook?
So again, Ron's large scale replica is an extraordinary accomplishment, just like USSCassiopeia said. Few here could pull it off. But, let's not all bray on about the emperor's new clothes.
gofourindian
Well-Known Member
Listen...all I'm saying is that I viewed this thread as RShanko being proud of what he has accomplished and was posting pictures of his finished replica as well as being a fun thread. He probably put allot of time, effort and money into this and he deserves to be proud of this accomplishment. As far as comparing it to Jim Key's version....Mr. Key's letter posted here was well written and to the point and should have been enough. If Ron wants to reply he has the tools to do so. Obviously, Mr. Key is a professional...others might want to follow suit and act accordingly.
imaginager....Glad to hear your a "long time member" congrats! and I haven't purchased Ron's kit so your wondering is clearly off. I just don't like seeing people attacked...and that's what this is...for posting their accomplishment's. It seems to me that RShanko is the one who struck the nerve.
imaginager....Glad to hear your a "long time member" congrats! and I haven't purchased Ron's kit so your wondering is clearly off. I just don't like seeing people attacked...and that's what this is...for posting their accomplishment's. It seems to me that RShanko is the one who struck the nerve.
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AnsonJames
Sr Member
This is Ron's thread - he's proud of his Enterprise and so he should be.
It's also obvious the phrase 'lets get ready to rumble' was used in a light hearted jovial manner but you guys seem to think otherwise.
You guys need to lighten up - the remarks I've read come across as being kind of spiteful.
As I said before there's no need for any kind of vitriol in this thread - I believe Ron was looking for constructive criticism.
Why do so many of these Star Trek related threads turn into pissing competitions?
It's also obvious the phrase 'lets get ready to rumble' was used in a light hearted jovial manner but you guys seem to think otherwise.
You guys need to lighten up - the remarks I've read come across as being kind of spiteful.
As I said before there's no need for any kind of vitriol in this thread - I believe Ron was looking for constructive criticism.
Why do so many of these Star Trek related threads turn into pissing competitions?
gofourindian
Well-Known Member
Exactly.
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Archie Opteryx
Well-Known Member
With all due respect, I've followed this project from its inception (that is, I've followed what I could for someone who didn't know the secret nod and handshake to get in the club) and I'd like to offer the following insights - It's Ron that needs to lighten up and I can assure you he's not interested in any kind of criticism.
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MustangGTR1
Sr Member
Let me first off say this, I did tell Ron what J Key told me after he looked at the photos, I even posted it on my site word for word so all could see.
Now if you really want to make a true TOS Enterprise then they are all wrong. The saucer was not 100% round and the left side was never finished and had wires haning out of it.:cry
I own over 400 kits, this includes Ron's and Rel's and others. Rons is a good kit and will not kill you to own. It has the grid lines, as the real ship should have, if they had of known what was going to happen.:love
As to the kit, unless you can do as well or better, then there is no room to talk, unless you would like to show me pic's of your ships:lol. I can, have and do. I just dont go public with my work, mine is all made to order only.:angel
...Kev
Now if you really want to make a true TOS Enterprise then they are all wrong. The saucer was not 100% round and the left side was never finished and had wires haning out of it.:cry
I own over 400 kits, this includes Ron's and Rel's and others. Rons is a good kit and will not kill you to own. It has the grid lines, as the real ship should have, if they had of known what was going to happen.:love
As to the kit, unless you can do as well or better, then there is no room to talk, unless you would like to show me pic's of your ships:lol. I can, have and do. I just dont go public with my work, mine is all made to order only.:angel
...Kev
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