The RED 5 Pictures Debacle - THE TRUTH AT LAST

[ralphee]

So let me get this staight, evertime pics were posted of a sensitive nature, were due to lack of a memory?

I dont get it, as we were told by the man himself, pics would be posted, even if they had such a sensitive nature, as the intention, was to "cut the heads from those snakes and they will die" to paraphrase, it was all planned, and, before actions took place, warnings were given to the guilty party on some ref!

I know of one guy who SPECIFICALLY asked that pics of a certain Rebel Medical frigate, remain at the old SR board only, yet they ended up all over the place, my local news agent has a copy i think?

Lets stop elaborating on a lie Matt, youll need a ladder to climb out of that hole soon guys!

lee

 

[mverta]

If I, personally, had memory problems and was on medication, I would not put myself in positions where I would hurt others simply because I was incapable of remembering things. At the very least, I would let everyone involved know the risks of trusting me with confidential information I couldn't be trusted to keep confidential.

No matter how may ways you want to try and sidestep the issue, personal responsibility will rear its head and trump all excuses.


_Mike

 

[Max Zephyr]

It really is becoming clear just how out of context some people prefer to live their life.

Lee you of all people know what that was all about even though not in those words and continued to contribute to the library knowing it to be the case. It has nothing whatever to do with this thread or this situation.

To be more clear on this for Mike, an individual may likely be in a situation where they don't know where something may have come from when it arrives from several different people. Some confusion, or induced forgetfulness may take place. A name remembered and dropped etc.

Aside from that there really is not a thing that can be done to explain how actions can be influenced and avoid these short sided perspectives. Unless you live with it personally or have a friend or loved one who does you never really can comprehend it to the fullest extent.

 

[mverta]

We don't have to comprehend it; only Kurt does, and is thusly obligated to inform people of his medicine-induced/health handicap.

But I'm entertaining this idea far more than it's worth. This is just the latest in a series of excuses which even Kurt hasn't bothered proffering. No such, "I'm untrustworthy and can't help it," precondition was offered, and if that's really true, is his responsibility, full stop.

You cannot escape personal responsibility and accountability for your actions. None of the victims get off that easy.


_Mike

 

[Max Zephyr]

No matter how may ways you want to try and sidestep the issue, personal responsibility will rear its head and trump all excuses.


_Mike

Some really crazy things can happen to an otherwise stable mind when in pain and taking medication. I had to take steroids and two very strong pain meds for a shoulder injury. Not only is there a year full of holes but a few things I'm told that I said. Things I would normally never say. It was one screwed up ordeal. Thankfully I have some very understanding family. Some basic reasoning on the issue is all I'm saying.

 

[ralphee]

Sorry Matt, it just doesnt wash, especially since the guilty party was forewarned NOT to post them hours before the event, and the party posting, was reputed to almost cast aside the better judgement of his peers go ahead with the deed.
So for a few moments he was a hero, but the damage done of any reference sharing is now done, and guys wonder why this forum is a graveyard at times.
People should stop beating the dead horse, act like men, and take responsibility for actions taken.
Im pretty sure he's full of regret, and its sad that doors may be closing on him, but im also sad to say, its justified!

lee

 

[belleauwood]

Meanwhile, the tpr valve on my water heater just crapped the bed, so I have something else to be upset about tonight. Thank god I knew how to put a band aid on the problem until the plumber arrives tomorrow.

LIAR!

So what was the panic call to me all about???!!??

LOL!

Ryan

 

[mverta]

And I assume - would HOPE - that while you were on such heavy medication, you assumed extra responsibility for things like driving a car, or informing your loved ones that you might have some side effects from the medication. If you're on medication, it is your responsibility to inform others of the ways in which it affects you, if it affects them.

And in any regard, you must realize that Kurt continues to lie and misrepresent the issue. In one of his summations, he stated that he had you and at least one other person "replicate" my color restoration precisely in Photoshop. This is not possible, for reasons I will now explain.

• First off, I used proprietary tools not available in Photoshop.
  
  But for argument's sake, let's say I DID use Photoshop alone to do the restoration. During a typical restoration, I might make 200-300 individual adjustments via filters, levels, spot cloning, curves adjustment, color balance, etc. Unless I had kept a detailed record of every single adjustment, execution, numerically-input value, and mouse click pixel co-ordinate value, even I could not hope to precisely replicate what I'd done.
  
  There is a handy trick for checking to see if an image is identical in Photoshop: bring the two images into the same file as layers and set one in Difference mode; if they're indentical, the entire image will turn pure black with RGB values 0,0,0. Any difference at all, be it position, color, luminance, etc., will immediately stand out, as shown here:
  
  
  
  
  
  Above are two images which appear identical, seen side-by-side. But when placing one image above the other in Difference mode, look what happens:
  
  
  
  
  
  The two little dots on the right hand side indicate what's different between the two images: the little highlights on 3PO's hip have moved. Look at the original again and you'll see it. Difference mode makes it instantly, abundantly clear. (White border added purely for clarity when viewing on a black forum background, by the way).

When I saw Kurt's posted images, I performed this test immediately, and of course, the image went pure black, indicating a precise digital clone of my file. It would not have been possible to re-create either intentionally or accidentally for the reasons stated above -even by me- and certainly not by someone else using Photoshop, which does not have the tools I have for image restoration.

Kurt has been burned by his ignorance of image restoration technique, but that's hardly the larger issue; the issue is that the misrepresentations continue. I hope this has been informative as well as clear.


_Mike

 

[Max Zephyr]

Sorry Matt, it just doesnt wash, especially since the guilty party was forewarned NOT to post them hours before the event, and the party posting, was reputed to almost cast aside the better judgement of his peers go ahead with the deed.
So for a few moments he was a hero, but the damage done of any reference sharing is now done, and guys wonder why this forum is a graveyard at times.
People should stop beating the dead horse, act like men, and take responsibility for actions taken.
Im pretty sure he's full of regret, and its sad that doors may be closing on him, but im also sad to say, its justified!

lee

And that is an opinion you are entitled too Lee. I never said there where any reasons attached to forgive, like, dislike or whatever emotion someone wants to have on this. This is by far not the first time this sort of thing has happened. It won't be the last. But some people want to keep beating that dead horse.

I wouldn't be a friend though if I read the statements and didn't offer some explanation. I believe he has taken responsibility and stated it clearly. He doesn't owe anyone any excuses for what happened and he didn't state any. It might though offer some more light on what has become a over inflated matter that is not uncommon. People pass along information all the time. Six people may give one person some sacred references and only one person may say "keep this confidential". It has happened to me, I'm pretty sure it's happened to you and others. These damn files on a hard drive can get to be rather confusing as to who gave you what. These photos made it into printed form. I'm sure somewhere along the way someone had to have provided the originals in full confidence that they where not to be shared. But here we are.

The funny thing is that I received the pictures in question from Mike without any keep these confidential request. The only confidential request I received from Mike where the photos of the remains of Red5 and that's where those pics remain. I opened my email and there they where. I guess it's just an understanding these where not public so that's where they should remain. So it goes to say if I didn't have that request made to me maybe it was never clearly stated until after the fact. In which case all this character bashing is a moot point.

In the perfect world non of this would be a problem but that isn't where we live. As much as I would prefer to not have been an ass for a year while in pain I can't take back what happened. So until we live in that perfect world it is what it is with all its little imperfections.

 

[Max Zephyr]

And there in lies the problem. The images you gave me are locked. They can't be layered with any other image or saved into a workable file. I don't believe anywhere that Kurt stated these being the same exact photos only that we where able to obtain a sharp and crisp image using the originals that where passed around. It was possible to make them look very close to the ones you sent me but without being able to add it to a layer I can't tell. Perhaps some confusion there.

I though originally you said you didn't get the photos directly off of the site but where sent copies of them. That they where down before you got them and that without the original files posted there was no way of knowing exactly what happened. This has become so convoluted by the only people who actually have the photos that I don't know how any of this can mean anything at all since no one seems to have the photos, and then do but don't again. Hell at this point I wouldn't know which where yours except for the format they are in. I have three sets now that at a basic review all look the same.

And I assume - would HOPE - that while you were on such heavy medication, you assumed extra responsibility for things like driving a car, or informing your loved ones that you might have some side effects from the medication. If you're on medication, it is your responsibility to inform others of the ways in which it affects you, if it affects them.

And in any regard, you must realize that Kurt continues to lie and misrepresent the issue. In one of his summations, he stated that he had you and at least one other person "replicate" my color restoration precisely in Photoshop. This is not possible, for reasons I will now explain.

• First off, I used proprietary tools not available in Photoshop.
  
  But for argument's sake, let's say I DID use Photoshop alone to do the restoration. During a typical restoration, I might make 200-300 individual adjustments via filters, levels, spot cloning, curves adjustment, color balance, etc. Unless I had kept a detailed record of every single adjustment, execution, numerically-input value, and mouse click pixel co-ordinate value, even I could not hope to precisely replicate what I'd done.
  
  There is a handy trick for checking to see if an image is identical in Photoshop: bring the two images into the same file as layers and set one in Difference mode; if they're indentical, the entire image will turn pure black with RGB values 0,0,0. Any difference at all, be it position, color, luminance, etc., will immediately stand out, as shown here:
  
  
  
  Above are two images which appear identical, seen side-by-side. But when placing one image above the other in Difference mode, look what happens:
  
  
  
  The two little dots on the right hand side indicate what's different between the two images: the little highlights on 3PO's hip have moved. Look at the original again and you'll see it. Difference mode makes it instantly, abundantly clear. (White border added purely for clarity when viewing on a black forum background, by the way).

When I saw Kurt's posted images, I performed this test immediately, and of course, the image went pure black, indicating a precise digital clone of my file. It would not have been possible to re-create either intentionally or accidentally for the reasons stated above -even by me- and certainly not by someone else using Photoshop, which does not have the tools I have for image restoration.

Kurt has been burned by his ignorance of image restoration technique, but that's hardly the larger issue; the issue is that the misrepresentations continue. I hope this has been informative as well as clear.


_Mike

 

[moffeaton]

Hah! I was literally walking into Home Depot to buy that hose when I called you, bub. But yeah, your advice was solid - I love having a network of friends who have all had the same kind of crap go wrong on houses... we're a brotherhood of poor people, but we have hot running water, right?

LIAR!

So what was the panic call to me all about???!!??

LOL!

Ryan

 

[DARKSIDE72]

:rolleyes Now we want to blame this debacle on medication, memory loss etc etc :lol

This is all about right and wrong (black and white).

KurtKhun has always stated that HE feels everything should be made publicly available to all regardless of whom it originated from. Any promises he made to people were tossed in the crapper the second he received any reference, or information.
He kept quiet for a time until his websites were up and running and unleashed his grand plan. A go to site for everything related to the hobby owned by him that he has total control over.

He's a twisted Robin Hood (for lack of a better analogy) of studio scale. Reaping the benefits of the people who've worked their butts off within the hobby only to slap those individuals in the face by giving it all away freely to those that have done nothing except pine about never being privy to such info.

Attempting to sweep these actions under the rug and not call them out for what they are is completely pathetic.

 

[PHArchivist]

I suffer from short term memory loss - every time my wife revs up the microwave, I piss my pants and forget who I am for half an hour...

 

[JP05]

I suffer from short term memory loss - every time my wife revs up the microwave, I piss my pants and forget who I am for half an hour...

Comforting to hear. At least I am not the only one.

 

[Max Zephyr]

:rolleyes Now we want to blame this debacle on medication, memory loss etc etc :lol

This is all about right and wrong (black and white).

KurtKhun has always stated that HE feels everything should be made publicly available to all regardless of whom it originated from. Any promises he made to people were tossed in the crapper the second he received any reference, or information.
He kept quiet for a time until his websites were up and running and unleashed his grand plan. A go to site for everything related to the hobby owned by him that he has total control over.

He's a twisted Robin Hood (for lack of a better analogy) of studio scale. Reaping the benefits of the people who've worked their butts off within the hobby only to slap those individuals in the face by giving it all away freely to those that have done nothing except pine about never being privy to such info.

Attempting to sweep these actions under the rug and not call them out for what they are is completely pathetic.

This is a reoccurring theme here. Spouting some statements that just are not true. First Kurt has only one site. One that promotes a huge crowd of builders, producers, and collectors. A spectrum far broader then his own collection. He doesn't own RI even though everyone campaigning repeats that as fact.

There seems to be only two views demonstrated here, one of perfection is all that can be expected and the other that people screw up but unless their severed head is placed on a stake at the gates of RPF then no one is satisfied. Not one person here is above making some bad calls or or being affected by real problems.

For that matter Jamie you where on the SR the same time I was. You knew of Kurt's plan and continued to contribute. Why do that and then turn on him as if surprised he would follow through with his word. I think the more morally disturbing issue is spinning people who don't know what is going on and allowing them to bravely go out repeating only one perspective which is often flawed with half truths or omissions of ones own involvement. I'd take a straight out lie from someone before accepting the deceitful manipulation taking place here. That's just plain twisted and sick man.

 

[DARKSIDE72]

For that matter Jamie you where on the SR the same time I was. You knew of Kurt's plan and continued to contribute. Why do that and then turn on him as if surprised he would follow through with his word. I think the more morally disturbing issue is spinning people who don't know what is going on and allowing them to bravely go out repeating only one perspective which is often flawed with half truths or omissions of ones own involvement. I'd take a straight out lie from someone before accepting the deceitful manipulation taking place here. That's just plain twisted and sick man.

Actually I was warned to STOP any further contributions on the SR and back away due to Kurts loose tongue and lack of discretion. I have had no involvement what so ever with any of his deeds.

There is no manipulation going on at all. :wacko What he did and the reasoning behind it are completely obvious. Attempting to be a champion for the guy and the underlying issue at hand is well... "twisted and sick". Stop being a drama queen.

 

[Chris Martin]

Max, I don't think you're helping Kurt's position. In fact you may be undermining it. And everyone has the right to express a personal opinion.

It's irrelevant what circumstances caused him to act the way he did if indeed drugs were the cause at all (the drug thing often seems to get wheeled out. I've never known such a sickly bunch of modelmakers). You might just as well say that a driver that mows down a pedestrian shouldn't be judged because he was drunk or drugged up. It may all be true for all I know but he IS still responsible for his actions and having someone trying to sweep that responsibility off his shoulders by blaming medication is thin to say the least. No one is looking to lynch anyone but the discussion is about the underlying moral argument. You're also right that no one is perfect and we're all less than saints but some manage to maintain an honest demeanour even when on medication. For what it's worth, he was either very stupid or acting out of character (if you like) but no matter which way you try to sugar coat it, the ultimate responsibilty lies with the person who did the deed. If the pictures had been posted and then withdrawn with a forthcoming apology rather than, apparently, months of knowing denial, I'd be more sympathetic to his position, drugs or no drugs but there was clearly an ongoing and deliberate attempt to lie about it rather than coming clean. That is not a medication issue.

Now he's apologised which is something and expressed remorse which is probably better for his soul than anything else but I think that's all he can expect. The apologies may be genuine and express that remorse but I suspect he's still got a long ladder to climb to regain the trust people had in him by demonstrating an ongoing pattern of honourable behaviour. I'm sure his not an axe murderer in real life and kind to children and animals but he has to pay the price for the actions he chose to make.

 

[Max Zephyr]

I am not excusing anyone's actions, it's not my place. I am only speaking from personal experience what may explain some, not all actions. This escalated to something far from logical. It really isn't like running over a bunch of pedestrians. But that is not to say people can't be hurt. I know and as I mentioned I said some things that I don't remember ever saying while going through some massive pain and doped up. All I can do is apologize for what I did to those people. I can't really do anything more then that. Kurt did that and more, not just privately but publicly. Sometimes you just have to take what is given. The only issue I have is the personal campaign that some people have turned this into even though they are not in anyway involved. Park the pitch forks and torches, put the lid back on the hot tar.

Max, I don't think you're helping Kurt's position. In fact you may be undermining it. And everyone has the right to express a personal opinion.

It's irrelevant what circumstances caused him to act the way he did if indeed drugs were the cause at all (the drug thing often seems to get wheeled out. I've never known such a sickly bunch of modelmakers). You might just as well say that a driver that mows down a pedestrian shouldn't be judged because he was drunk or drugged up. It may all be true for all I know but he IS still responsible for his actions and having someone trying to sweep that responsibility off his shoulders by blaming medication is thin to say the least. No one is looking to lynch anyone but the discussion is about the underlying moral argument. You're also right that no one is perfect and we're all less than saints but some manage to maintain an honest demeanour even when on medication. For what it's worth, he was either very stupid or acting out of character (if you like) but no matter which way you try to sugar coat it, the ultimate responsibilty lies with the person who did the deed. If the pictures had been posted and then withdrawn with a forthcoming apology rather than, apparently, months of knowing denial, I'd be more sympathetic to his position, drugs or no drugs but there was clearly an ongoing and deliberate attempt to lie about it rather than coming clean. That is not a medication issue.

Now he's apologised which is something and expressed remorse which is probably better for his soul than anything else but I think that's all he can expect. The apologies may be genuine and express that remorse but I suspect he's still got a long ladder to climb to regain the trust people had in him by demonstrating an ongoing pattern of honourable behaviour. I'm sure his not an axe murderer in real life and kind to children and animals but he has to pay the price for the actions he chose to make.

 

[Mensaboy]

who owns the photos? - i mean, who took them originally?

 

[PHArchivist]

Hmmm...