The Marvels (2023)

[Riceball]

That's true, but I think it's all sides of the same coin.

The lack of creative mojo is a big part of what runs up the budgets. They fall back on CGI spectacle because it's considered reliable (it used to be) and they don't know how to write anything better.

The productions go out of control because they are making it up as they go along. They do that because they don't know a good idea from a bad one, and they have to wait for test audiences to tell them which 30 days of shooting have to be scrapped and redone.

Of course it all has to be redone at a frantic pace to meet a release date. That date was barely sensible to begin with, and only if they were competent enough to get the movie done on the first try. Which they aren't.

I don't think that the reliance on big action/CGI fests was a product of laziness, it was done in pursuit of foreign box office sales. If you make a movie that's heavy on the dialogue with a complex story, that might not translate very well overseas, esp. in China where the cultural differences might mean that something that makes total sense in the US and other Western nations is completely foreign (no pun intended) to a Chinese audience. So what's universal, action. Audiences don't have to really get the dialogue or the cultural nuances, they can watch it for the action and come away happy. The same applies, to a degree, to reboots. While we may have fond memories of the original version of something that's been rebooted and are not happy with seeing it being rebooted, to a foreign audience who's had limited to no exposure to our old shows and movies, this is something fresh and new. So, it's not laziness, but things are changing and China is no longer the lucrative market it once was since they've been busy developing their own domestic movie business but the studios have been slow to change and are only now starting to slowly pivot back to trying to make movies that appeal to American audiences first and any money made overseas is just the icing on the cake.

 

[Solo4114]

Disney made a Star Wars trilogy with no consistent plotline.

I would expect that high level of quality to be maintained with their new MCU phases too.

Yeah, Kathleen Kennedy frakked that up big time. That's why Filoni is now in charge of Star Wars.

Not to derail this, but it's sort of relevant to the current discussion.

Kennedy's problem wasn't simply that she had no plan. She also made several expensive production mistakes. The core ST was successful financially, but there were some decisions that I expect also hurt the bottom line (tapping directors and later shelving their projects and picking different ones, the worst case being with Solo where she basically had to pay 2x for 1 film). Her practice of making grand announcements about upcoming projects that never come to fruition probably also doesn't help a ton. Who knows what kind of money changed hands just to make those announcements, only to have them amount to....nothing.

 

[dascoyne]

Kennedy's problem wasn't simply that she had no plan. She also made several expensive production mistakes. The core ST was successful financially, but there were some decisions that I expect also hurt the bottom line (tapping directors and later shelving their projects and picking different ones, the worst case being with Solo where she basically had to pay 2x for 1 film). Her practice of making grand announcements about upcoming projects that never come to fruition probably also doesn't help a ton. Who knows what kind of money changed hands just to make those announcements, only to have them amount to....nothing.

I don't want to get too far off track talking about KK. I know she has nothing to do with the MCU and even less to do with The Marvels. Still, I now accept that every single thread about MCU, PIXAR or Lucasfilm is going to naturally evolve into a discussion about systemic issues with Disney.

Do you know those people who like to posture and criticize from the back seat, but are completely incompetent when given control? That's the sort of picture I'm getting here. KK probably knows how to operate a motor vehicle, but that doesn't mean she can win races as a driver.

 

[Solo4114]

I don't want to get too far off track talking about KK. I know she has nothing to do with the MCU and even less to do with The Marvels. Still, I now accept that every single thread about MCU, PIXAR or Lucasfilm is going to naturally evolve into a discussion about systemic issues with Disney.

Do you know those people who like to posture and criticize from the back seat, but are completely incompetent when given control? That's the sort of picture I'm getting here. KK probably knows how to operate a motor vehicle, but that doesn't mean she can win races as a driver.

I mean, this is a 40 second clip from I have no idea what. So I don't really feel like it's all that useful without greater context.

Some people are fantastic as collaborators, but are less viable as leaders. They can tweak someone else's work in a way that makes it really sing, but they lack their own spark to fully create stuff. I suspect that KK is a good organizer, very business savvy, and probably a pretty good collaborator.

But either she doesn't have the creative spark, or she doesn't have the ability to wrangle directors as a leader and it seems gives them too much freedom.

Examples:

- Lord & Miller had too much freedom in their Solo project, and it wound up getting them fired. That is 100% at KK's feet. That's her ****up top to bottom.

- Letting JJ go hog wild on Ep. VII in ways that set up the rest of the trilogy for failure (e.g., "mystery box" stuff and just kinda throwing things together in a half-thought-thru way).

She's more Rick McCallum than Gary Kurtz, and Star Wars needs a Gary Kurtz.

 

[batguy]

I don't think that the reliance on big action/CGI fests was a product of laziness, it was done in pursuit of foreign box office sales. If you make a movie that's heavy on the dialogue with a complex story, that might not translate very well overseas, esp. in China where the cultural differences might mean that something that makes total sense in the US and other Western nations is completely foreign (no pun intended) to a Chinese audience. So what's universal, action. Audiences don't have to really get the dialogue or the cultural nuances, they can watch it for the action and come away happy. The same applies, to a degree, to reboots. While we may have fond memories of the original version of something that's been rebooted and are not happy with seeing it being rebooted, to a foreign audience who's had limited to no exposure to our old shows and movies, this is something fresh and new. So, it's not laziness, but things are changing and China is no longer the lucrative market it once was since they've been busy developing their own domestic movie business but the studios have been slow to change and are only now starting to slowly pivot back to trying to make movies that appeal to American audiences first and any money made overseas is just the icing on the cake.

I semi-agree. It's true that SFX spectacle translates better overseas.

But so does action, and that is not quite the same thing. A mid-budget action show like 'John Wick' delivers a lot of action without the cost of destroying whole cities & armies & planets.

IMO Disney has been pouring on the SFX spectacle way too hard without regard to the cost-effectiveness.

She's more Rick McCallum than Gary Kurtz, and Star Wars needs a Gary Kurtz.

I dunno what you call her besides an ineffective producer. How do you shoot 80% of a movie (with directors who are untested in the genre & size of it) and then decide the directors aren't working? I don't think that can be chalked up to anything other than failure-to-do-her-job.

Same with the JJA-mystery-plot of the sequel trilogy. The only way I can make sense of that decision is maybe she recalled the OT era and thought, "George mostly winged it. He made up the plot as he went along. It worked fine back then." There's an element of truth in that. But it's also selective memory to rationalize being careless now. That only works when you have somebody like 1970s George Lucas in the holster. He did better with a vague plan than most filmmakers do with a good one.


The Marvel MCU is now suffering from the same basic issue. Disney understands the concept that interlocking storylines can be leveraged to make more money. But they have never accepted/respected the fact that it requires solid interlocking stories and planning it all ahead of time.

It's a simple concept that a friggin 9yo would understand. But you can't make a $100m executive hear something when they really don't want to hear it.

 

[Cephus]

IMO Disney has been pouring on the SFX spectacle way too hard without regard to the cost-effectiveness.

I think the problem is more that they keep trying to top themselves and there's only so far that can go. It's a basic comic book problem, which makes it entirely understandable when it comes to Marvel. You start with a basic superhero. They face problems and have to dig deep to overcome them and then... they need to make the next enemy stronger. Then the hero has to get stronger. Lather, rinse, repeat until you've got Superman juggling planets and they have to reset the whole thing back to square one and do it over again.

In the very first movie, Iron Man faced a very simple enemy. It was a guy in a suit up against a guy in a suit. Then it just kept escalating until you were facing gods in the first Avengers movie, until you got to Thanos and the potential end of half of the life in the universe. Where do you go from there? Audiences don't want to go back to watching Tony Stark, or whoever you replace him with, punching a bad guy. That's one reason why, I think, in Phase 4, they started sidetracking into other things that weren't trying to top the last movie. The fact that identity politics got thrown into the mix and that alienated a huge part of their audience, I figure it was just them looking for something to do that wasn't "the universe is ending... AGAIN!" That's why the threat level kept getting smaller and "the message" kept getting bigger. Kevin Feige had no idea what else to do and he still doesn't.

Comics have never figured out the solution to the problem and no "cinematic universe" is going to either. You either need to reset everything, or, better, not grow as fast as they did. They didn't do the insanity that DC tried to do, but these things should take many, many years, over many, many movies, with only small changes along the way. Marvel didn't do it and now, I don't know that they can go back without losing their audience.

Granted, they've managed to drive away most of their audience now, so I'm not sure how much it really matters.

 

[batguy]

I think the problem is more that they keep trying to top themselves and there's only so far that can go. It's a basic comic book problem, which makes it entirely understandable when it comes to Marvel. You start with a basic superhero. They face problems and have to dig deep to overcome them and then... they need to make the next enemy stronger. Then the hero has to get stronger. Lather, rinse, repeat until you've got Superman juggling planets and they have to reset the whole thing back to square one and do it over again.

In the very first movie, Iron Man faced a very simple enemy. It was a guy in a suit up against a guy in a suit. Then it just kept escalating until you were facing gods in the first Avengers movie, until you got to Thanos and the potential end of half of the life in the universe. Where do you go from there? Audiences don't want to go back to watching Tony Stark, or whoever you replace him with, punching a bad guy. That's one reason why, I think, in Phase 4, they started sidetracking into other things that weren't trying to top the last movie. The fact that identity politics got thrown into the mix and that alienated a huge part of their audience, I figure it was just them looking for something to do that wasn't "the universe is ending... AGAIN!" That's why the threat level kept getting smaller and "the message" kept getting bigger. Kevin Feige had no idea what else to do and he still doesn't.

Comics have never figured out the solution to the problem and no "cinematic universe" is going to either. You either need to reset everything, or, better, not grow as fast as they did. They didn't do the insanity that DC tried to do, but these things should take many, many years, over many, many movies, with only small changes along the way. Marvel didn't do it and now, I don't know that they can go back without losing their audience.

Granted, they've managed to drive away most of their audience now, so I'm not sure how much it really matters.

True. That's a big part of it too. The expectations with the MCU can't get any bigger. Lots of TV shows run into that problem after they spent the first couple of seasons going big with finales.

I mean, it still takes you back to the same conversations we've been having at the individual movie levels. Poor planning/management. This is what it looks like at the macro level.

 

[blewis17]

Grosses​

DOMESTIC (41%)
$82,962,128
INTERNATIONAL (59%)
$119,267,487
WORLDWIDE
$202,229,615

Love it, like it, or hate it... the movie has performed poorly at the box office; it has not broken the $100 million domestic U.S. box office, and probably won't. At a $200 million worldwide gross, Marvel/Disney will NET less than $100 million from the film's theatrical release (again, we don't know streaming / DVD/ Blu-ray etc numbers).

Based on at least $300 million with production, reshoots, and advertising:
Marvel/Disney earns less than $100 million for a $300 million investment, and "loses" $200 million.

Which means: Marvel/Disney could have never made the movie, flushed $100 million down the toilet, and still be better off financially.

Which also means: Marvel/Disney could only make a profit if somehow total production and advertising were much less than $100 million total.

Which also, also means: it's not just a problem of:
1) "Lots of people really enjoyed the film, but the production costs were way too high"

...but also...

2) "Although lots of people really enjoyed the film, not enough actually went to see it in theaters to make it worthwhile financially to Marvel/Disney"

Which also, also, also means: Marvel/ Disney will have to sell $200-$300 million worth of DVD/Blu-ray/streaming to add to the theatrical release income to even begin to break even on the film.

I really enjoyed Tron: Legacy ($402 million box office) and Solo: a Star Wars Story ($392 million box office); respectable, but not earth shattering. And certainly not enough to warrant a film sequel for either. So it's not a matter of hating a film and wanting it to do poorly, but rather that Marvel/Disney/LFL need to desperately streamline and downsize their production pipeline and budgets for future films to even hope to make a profit in the current entertainment climate.

 

[NakedMoleRat]

It’s official now.

Marvel Will Part Ways With Jonathan Majors After Guilty Verdict

Mr. Majors was convicted of misdemeanor assault and harassment for attacking his girlfriend in a car. The company dropped the actor shortly after.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Solo4114]

It’s official now.

Marvel Will Part Ways With Jonathan Majors After Guilty Verdict

Mr. Majors was convicted of misdemeanor assault and harassment for attacking his girlfriend in a car. The company dropped the actor shortly after.

www.nytimes.com

Unsurprising. They don't want any kind of controversy applying to their movies. They're already having a tough enough time getting folks to go to them lately.

Now, initially, I thought this was a felony count, but it looks like it's a misdemeanor and basically what you'd get if you got into a barfight or something. Even so, it's high profile enough that I figured if he got convicted, even without jail time, that was it. He'd be done. And, well...here we are.

 

[NakedMoleRat]

I hope that he didn’t spend all of that money. It may be a long time before he’s cast in anything again.

 

[Usagi Pilgrim]

I enjoyed his work in Lovecraft Country & especially Loki & I hate to hear this, but at least the powers that be waited until there was an actual LEGAL verdict, & didn't give in to public outcry.

Either way, justice was served & they can move on.

 

[Solo4114]

Yeah, I'm hoping they just recast the role. I'm probably in the minority here, but I really dig Kang and the whole multiverse struggle. I'd also figure they're pretty heavily invested in the storyline now, so it wouldn't make any sense to just...drop everything.

One thing I'm wondering is how much stuff Majors had shot for any of the unreleased stuff, and whether they'd feel compelled to go back and reshoot (which would, of course, balloon the budget and virtually guarantee "box office bomb" status purely by virtue of having spent too much money on the picture(s)), or if they'll leave him in. Or, for that matter, if they've shot anything at all.

You'd hope they'd be smart and not have shot anything after about March when this all broke...but then Marvel hasn't exactly been smart in its budgeting and production approaches recently.

 

[jts1031]

Kang as a baddy was falling flat for me. Thanos was working from the shadows until Infinity Wars and then he was front and center. We've already had Kang get beat by Ant-Man, and let Sylvie run him through. Is there any doubt that a new Avengers team up would beat him? He's not been presented as a real threat yet.

 

[Usagi Pilgrim]

Yeah, I'm hoping they just recast the role. I'm probably in the minority here, but I really dig Kang and the whole multiverse struggle. I'd also figure they're pretty heavily invested in the storyline now, so it wouldn't make any sense to just...drop everything.

One thing I'm wondering is how much stuff Majors had shot for any of the unreleased stuff, and whether they'd feel compelled to go back and reshoot (which would, of course, balloon the budget and virtually guarantee "box office bomb" status purely by virtue of having spent too much money on the picture(s)), or if they'll leave him in. Or, for that matter, if they've shot anything at all.

You'd hope they'd be smart and not have shot anything after about March when this all broke...but then Marvel hasn't exactly been smart in its budgeting and production approaches recently.

Agreed.

I really don't think they've shot anything that's in the can, so to speak. If there was anything existing for the new Cap film, they're in the process of almost reshooting that from the ground up, so there's an easy fix.

I think a recast would be able to work well, if they simply say that since Kang was being constantly monitored by the TVA, he somehow altered his variants to hide in plain sight, so to speak. Just think, if they cast a different actor in every MARVEL project that includes him, sometimes revealing it was him & other times keep it a secret that he's there.

If they go with just one actor, which would probably be their route, I'd like to see David Washington, from TENET, & then have a possible cameo from Denzel as an older version at some point.

 

[NakedMoleRat]

He who is not remaining.

Really, just recast him and don’t mention it. We’re all smart enough to know what’s happened.

Put John Boyega in the role.

 

[Solo4114]

Kang as a baddy was falling flat for me. Thanos was working from the shadows until Infinity Wars and then he was front and center. We've already had Kang get beat by Ant-Man, and let Sylvie run him through. Is there any doubt that a new Avengers team up would beat him? He's not been presented as a real threat yet.

The dodge for that is just saying "Those were different variants. They were the 'easy' guys. The 'minibosses'. The real threats have yet to reveal themselves fully." And in some respects, the true threat wouldn't be one Kang operating on their own, but rather multiple Kangs operating together to divide the heroes and conquer them.

Agreed.

I really don't think they've shot anything that's in the can, so to speak. If there was anything existing for the new Cap film, they're in the process of almost reshooting that from the ground up, so there's an easy fix.

Oh God, another "reshot-from-the-ground-up" film?! What the hell is Marvel doing on its production end? I guess this is what Bob Iger meant by "We need more executives involved." I don't know that you necessarily need more, but you damn sure need different execs involved if your end result is multiple movies undergoing constant reshoots and jacking up the budgets.

I think a recast would be able to work well, if they simply say that since Kang was being constantly monitored by the TVA, he somehow altered his variants to hide in plain sight, so to speak. Just think, if they cast a different actor in every MARVEL project that includes him, sometimes revealing it was him & other times keep it a secret that he's there.

If they go with just one actor, which would probably be their route, I'd like to see David Washington, from TENET, & then have a possible cameo from Denzel as an older version at some point.

He who is not remaining.

Really, just recast him and don’t mention it. We’re all smart enough to know what’s happened.

Put John Boyega in the role.

I think there are any number of talented actors who could play the role. I just hope they cast someone who can manage it. Majors is undeniably talented as an actor, just apparently a ****head in real life (although he's young and could put his life back together at some point, I guess).

Given how things went with Star Wars, I dunno that Boyega is going to be all that interested in hopping back into blockbuster territory.

 

[AJK001]

I know I said I was done with this thread but could someone please tell me what Jonathan Majors has to do with The Marvels movie?

 

[Laspector]

Tell me again, what exactly is Kang trying to do?

 

[cboath]

Yeah, I'm hoping they just recast the role. I'm probably in the minority here, but I really dig Kang and the whole multiverse struggle. I'd also figure they're pretty heavily invested in the storyline now, so it wouldn't make any sense to just...drop everything.

One thing I'm wondering is how much stuff Majors had shot for any of the unreleased stuff, and whether they'd feel compelled to go back and reshoot (which would, of course, balloon the budget and virtually guarantee "box office bomb" status purely by virtue of having spent too much money on the picture(s)), or if they'll leave him in. Or, for that matter, if they've shot anything at all.

You'd hope they'd be smart and not have shot anything after about March when this all broke...but then Marvel hasn't exactly been smart in its budgeting and production approaches recently.

Have they been shooting anything since march? I'd think not with the strikes and all and it just getting back into swing a few weeks ago.