Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2014)

[KrangPrime]

How does their height really change anything? Look at the height discrepency between the 87 and the 03 turtles.

And using the genetic experiments angle didn't do much harm to the Spider-Man franchise. We've seen hundreds of changes to character back stories in comic books. I don't see how them being test subjects (something the IDW series has done to a lesser degree) has really changed the tone.

adding a foot to them doesn't change all that much. they are still small and nimble enough to be stealthy. Making them SIX foot PLUS, and so bulky that when they jump and land they make dents...that's a pretty significant change. no matter how good they where, they can't be stealthy that way.

they pretty much stole whole plots from the spiderman franchise. that's also part of the problem. it took three lazy writers to think those ideas up.
I got confused as to what we where talking/arguing for or against two posts back ;o). I hope I'm not the only one

 

[batguy]

And using the genetic experiments angle didn't do much harm to the Spider-Man franchise. We've seen hundreds of changes to character back stories in comic books. I don't see how them being test subjects (something the IDW series has done to a lesser degree) has really changed the tone.

Okay, so then why change it? It's change just for the sake of I'm-Michael-Bay-and-I-don't-have-to-give-a-f__k-about-the-source-material.

I'm sure there could be a great show about an alien guy with superpowers named Bruce Wayne who dresses up as a bat and fights crime. But it ain't Batman anymore.




It changes the tone when the turtles were intentionally created in any way. They were supposed to be mutant accidents. Look at the 2nd movie in the 1990s, where one of them was even having an existential crisis when he finds out the true circumstances of their creation. It was a huge part of the franchise that these were TURTLES - seemingly the least-cool animal you could think of for an action hero - living in a SEWER - the least cool place in NYC to dwell - and just trying to carve out an existence & survive. They were short, ugly, uncool, dirty . . . basically the antithesis of all that was badass heroes in the 1980s. And their father/mentor was big overgrown mutated rat.

There was a time when TMNT was not a household known thing. THIS was how you reacted to the idea of TMNT when first introduced to it. I'm old enough to remember. That's how it felt when you first saw the ninja turtles, and this was how you reacted to the origin story. Just like how it should still be affecting the fictional characters, both the mutants and the humans they encounter, in the fictional world where TMNT is still not a household thing.




But now they are something totally different in this new movie.

Why?

I dunno. Just because:
"I'm Michael Bay and I don't have to give a f__k about the source material. I'm a hack producer who can't make a good movie on my own but they know I can produce products. So I keep on getting stuck rehashing these idiotic 1980s toy cartoons, which I hate but I do it for the money. So f__k taking any creative risk, I'm just gonna do what has already worked recently. I had planned on rehashing my own Transformers backstory with these green critters, but too many people bitched when rumors of it leaked 2 years ago. So we'll just copy Spider-Man this time instead."


TMNT didn't deserve this. It has a multi-generational fanbase that would have supported a non-insulting reboot and happily introduced it to their kids anew.

 

[KrangPrime]

Okay, so then why change it? It's change just for the sake of I'm-Michael-Bay-and-I-don't-have-to-give-a-f__k-about-the-source-material.

TMNT didn't deserve this. It has a multi-generational fanbase that would have supported a non-insulting reboot and happily introduced it to their kids anew.

that's because no one but the creators EVER really took the turtles seriously. have you seen all the stuff they vetoed over the years? One producer wanted a movie where the only thing about the franchise that was kept was theturtles names. He wanted to hire famous comedians of the time like John Candy to be Donatello (as a guy, not a turtle in suit!) That's the kind of crap Kevin and Peter have been fending off for years until now. Now that PETER is no longer in the picture (Kevin has no 'Lets not do this because it's stupid' filter. He'll let anything go if he thinks it's cool), those same people who wanted to ruin the turtles before, because they don't think it's cool, or just don't get it, are now able to do so in full force.

Paramount just threw this at the one guy who did their other franchise movie and said, here, take it. we've got thor to worry about. you know, something that's cool. And that, to me, is one of the sadder tales of this picture. Paramount just didn't care to do it right. and no one was there to stop them and point them in the right direction.

 

[Westies14]

Beyond the size, taking any personal connection to Hamato Yoshi (the only thing that the 80s cartoon improved upon over the comics was making Splinter Yoshi himself rather than his pet) and Oroku Saki is a huge departure. Having them pick up a few things from a sewer-found copy of a martial arts book rather than having them be master ninja is inexplicable and a terrible decision. There was always an eastern/spiritual throughline with these characters grounded in martial arts and japanese culture. These things are just not the ninja turtles.

 

[KrangPrime]

Beyond the size, taking any personal connection to Hamato Yoshi (the only thing that the 80s cartoon improved upon over the comics was making Splinter Yoshi himself rather than his pet) and Oroku Saki is a huge departure. Having them pick up a few things from a sewer-found copy of a martial arts book rather than having them be master ninja is inexplicable and a terrible decision. There was always an eastern/spiritual throughline with these characters grounded in martial arts and japanese culture. These things are just not the ninja turtles.

And the other thing....the "I knew they would not be able to protect themselves" doesn't make sense anymore either. we already saw that a baby turtle had the strength to break glass with it's beak. imagine how strong the mini turtles where once mutated?

Also, I must have grown bored at this point, but did the turtles suddenly start growing once they hit the sewer, or where they starting to grow in the lab since they had already been injected? another bit of weird logic there, too...


sigh. reading reviews of this movie on official pages is frustrating. So many poser fans coming out of the woodwork. are all michael bay movie fans so crass? they don't seem to discuss so much as they seem to use terms like 'man babies', haters, and other colorful language to support this film. I also like the ones claiming to be fans, and yet call them Ralph and Mickey.

 

[seelsa73]

Why is it so hard for some people to wrap their heads around the idea that an actual TMNT fan might genuinely like this movie and isn't just jumping on a bandwagon or making bs excuses?

 

[Westies14]

It's possible, sure. I'm a huge fan of the turtles, and I enjoyed the first few seasons of Gilmore Girls. Luckily, no one tried to pretend that one was the other though. Enjoy it or not, the movie doesn't represent the turtles in some really fundamental ways - that's the main issue. It makes sense that fans of the characters would be disappointed that this is setting the table for the foreseeable future.

 

[crabra comander]

I wouldn't say I'm a fan.

However, "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles IV" story was by far my favorite comic.

http://www.dorkly.com/post/61062/every-version-of-teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-ruined-teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles#!bEwxIz

 

[KrangPrime]

I stopped reading with "And TMNT has ALWAYS been Dumb". that's the kind of disrespect I'm talkin' about.

Each franchise has rules. IF you respect those rules, and enjoy it based on those rules, does that make it dumb? Then you have something that comes in and totally changes those rules for no reason at all. all of a sudden, oh look, lots of people complaining.....must be nerds with no life.

lets see all the hate when you keep batmans parents alive in the next reboot. I bet no one will be saying 'the franchise was dumb before' or 'look at all the nerds....their opinion doesn't matter'. or 'the franchise didn't have any integrity to begin with.' This, as a turtle fan, is the kind of stuff we've been dealing with for a while and it gets frustrating ;o).


-edit I thought it was going to be like another of those Entertainment Weekly Articles that bashed EVERYTHING from the franchise...so went back and read it. Yeah. Just finished reading it. they got next mutation, Image comics, and last few seasons of 2003 right. every other aspect made me think that this guy was just doing it to incite people.

 

[AlexBC]

But then, Batman's story is wholly dependent on the death of his parents.

The Turtles are not dependent on any one specific origin. As long as you have the basics in place, baby turtles>mutagen>sewers>training under Splinter, then they work just fine.

 

[KrangPrime]

But then, Batman's story is wholly dependent on the death of his parents.

The Turtles are not dependent on any one specific origin. As long as you have the basics in place, baby turtles>mutagen>sewers>training under Splinter, then they work just fine.

so is the hamato yoshi aspect. you take that out, and the turtles have no connection to japan whatsoever, so why should they even become ninja in the first place? oh that's right, he read it from a book.

the problem here is, apart from film makers who just don't care to make what has always been there work.... is that things have been rebooted SO MANY TIMES now, that even if they did care, they feel the need to change things to stand out from what has come before. and that's where your problems start.

Just like how they where going to make it that the Suit gave superman his powers. fan outrage got that scrapped as well as I Recall.

 

[Solo4114]

so is the hamato yoshi aspect. you take that out, and the turtles have no connection to japan whatsoever, so why should they even become ninja in the first place? oh that's right, he read it from a book.

the problem here is, apart from film makers who just don't care to make what has always been there work.... is that things have been rebooted SO MANY TIMES now, that even if they did care, they feel the need to change things to stand out from what has come before. and that's where your problems start.

Just like how they where going to make it that the Suit gave superman his powers. fan outrage got that scrapped as well as I Recall.

What you describe is the fundamental conundrum of reboots.

When you reboot a movie, you have to both keep it the same and make it different. You have two goals that are diametrically opposed. If you keep it too much the same, the question becomes "Why'd you bother rebooting it? The original was good enough." If you change too much, the question is "Why'd you bother calling it [franchise name] in the first place? This is nothing like [franchise name]."

The balancing act is INCREDIBLY difficult to successfully manage. Most of the time, I think filmmakers hew far more towards "change everything," because....well...because screw it. The original material really doesn't matter. What matters is the BRAND. It's the BRAND that sells tickets, not the substance of the film.

Look at TMNT. Plenty of fans heard plenty of things that sounded AWFUL before the movie came out....yet plenty of those fans still went to see it. Look at the recent G.I. Joe films, and the Transformers films. Look at the Star Trek reboot. Look at the Amazing Spiderman reboot. Look at Man of Steel.

These films have taught filmmakers that the only thing that matters is BRANDING. The brand sells the tickets. Not the substance of the films. If Bay had decided that the Turtles WERE aliens, the film still would've made the same amount of money. It doesn't matter. People would see it because of the brand alone.

 

[KrangPrime]

as for man of steel... I was EXCITED to see that one at first. I had enjoyed all but the middle entry in the franchise, with it's incredibly boring joker. So it was interesting to see what Nolan could do when Super Powers are the Norm. Sadly, he seemed to make it an all out brawl. And forgot that the one thing that people liked About Superman, was hope and heart for the human race. Man of Steel hardly had any caring to it.


I have no interest in GI Joe or Transformers, so I didn't see those regardless. As for Star Trek....the only problem I had with that was blowing up Vulcan Re:star Wars. I didn't care for the sequel as much cause it went even further into reboot territory.


as for going to see movies because of the brand...in this case I saw Turtles so I could outcry it properly. The sequel will not get my money. Nor will the Blu Ray of this movie, unless it is released through RiffTrax live.

 

[Solo4114]

as for man of steel... I was EXCITED to see that one at first. I had enjoyed all but the middle entry in the franchise, with it's incredibly boring joker. So it was interesting to see what Nolan could do when Super Powers are the Norm. Sadly, he seemed to make it an all out brawl. And forgot that the one thing that people liked About Superman, was hope and heart for the human race. Man of Steel hardly had any caring to it.


I have no interest in GI Joe or Transformers, so I didn't see those regardless. As for Star Trek....the only problem I had with that was blowing up Vulcan Re:star Wars. I didn't care for the sequel as much cause it went even further into reboot territory.


as for going to see movies because of the brand...in this case I saw Turtles so I could outcry it properly. The sequel will not get my money. Nor will the Blu Ray of this movie, unless it is released through RiffTrax live.

Yeah, but that's my point: you paid to see it. Even if it was just so you could nitpick it to death....you still paid. The brand worked.

The process is simple:

1. Slap brand on product.
2. Watch fans of brand pay for product.
3. Profit.

You'll note there's no 2a. or 2.5 where it says "Hope fans like product." Your appreciation of the product is irrelevant. As long as it's good enough to new fans to want to see it, then it doesn't matter if you personally didn't like it. You still paid. They have your money. That's all they wanted. And there are enough old fans who will see the next one even if they thought this one was a total ****burger that, again, it won't matter.

Brands. It's all about brands.

Strip away the IP from these films and no one goes to see them. It's the brand that sells the tickets. Not the story.

 

[KrangPrime]

Strip away the IP from these films and no one goes to see them. It's the brand that sells the tickets. Not the story.

yeah, I get what you are saying... but you'd think the studio would care to make the product work without just relying on brand.
If I didn't go see the thing, people would accuse me of being a Michael bay hater and not giving the film a chance, so you can't win either way: )

 

[Solo4114]

yeah, I get what you are saying... but you'd think the studio would care to make the product work without just relying on brand.

Why would they care about that? A humdrum, mediocre film that sells a bunch of tickets...is a film that sells a bunch of tickets. End of story. Good enough to turn a profit is good enough. The rest doesn't really matter. I mean, I suspect that the people actually makign the film care about doing as good a job as they can with the material they're working with...but the material they're working with is whatever the suits decided to bankroll. And the suits decided to bankroll a brand.

If I didn't go see the thing, people would accuse me of being a Michael bay hater and not giving the film a chance, so you can't win either way: )

1. Who cares? **** 'em.

2. You win by not having spent money to see the film. I haven't seen any Transformers film since Transformers 1, and I count that as a triple win.

 

[Grimwood]

What about a fan film? People are doing some amazing things with props and costumes and... oh, wait. :devil

There was a recent Wolverine video made by fans posted here (somewhere) which I thought was pretty awesome. Sure, it lacked a back story, but the actors are believable and believed in what they were doing. To me, that speaks volumes.

The sad fact is, movies, regardless of how they are made, will never meet the strict requirements set by our brains and our expectations. Pick up a Stephen King novel, then watch one of movies based loosely on his story. Expectations set in childhood are rarely met in adulthood.

.02

 

[KrangPrime]

1. Who cares? **** 'em.

true, I just get tired of the 'you havn't seen it, you can't judge' whining ;o).

regarding fan films. There was a guy who posted a video with some amazing looking costume sculpts of bebop, rocksteady, casey, etc. But I don't know if anything ever came of that. I'd love to see what he can do with a kick starter budget if his script and production writing are as good as the sculpts looked...

 

[batguy]

. . . people would accuse me of being a Michael bay hater and not giving the film a chance . . .

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

[KrangPrime]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

;o).

Every review I see from people who like this thing are clearly fans of bays style, not the franchises that he is trying to portray. when they do reviews on why they think it's good as a TURTLES movie, it's almost laughable. especially when half of them say 'Mickey and Ralph'..

Anyway, I said my piece... unsubscribing before I get accused of saying that "I'm right and everyone who likes it is wrong:" I guess people don't like being told that WHY they like it isn't true to the turtle verse ;o).

have fun ;o).