Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Pre-release)

[Psab keel]

Psab keel, that's what prompted my rewrite project back in the early 2000s. I wanted to see if there were a way it could have all worked, and retained the same "mental mouthfeel" of Star Wars and Empire (if you've been paying any attention at all, you know I don't regard ROTJ as a satisfactory end to Luke's arc because of the impact compressing four episodes into one had on the story beats and character development). That's how I came to feel it was flawed from the get-go, from the choice Lucas made to start in the middle, thinking he only had one shot. I approached it to see how it would look laid out from Episode I through whatever, and when you listen to the story and the characters, rather than adhering to bullet-points to tick off. I don't like to list my critiques, because it comes across as Lucas-bashing, when I'm just trying to point out the structural errors made in the writing process.

But I do still believe in that latent greatness. Even if it means laying out the groundwork and leaving it to a future generation to re-make the saga. Like all the different attempts and interpretations of Dune or Lord of the Rings -- that were released or died on the vine. I appreciate the actors and performances and technical achievements and don't want to dismiss or diminish any of that. Some things are the sort of lightning-in-a-bottle that may never be able to be captured again. But I have to hang onto my hope for my big three fandoms -- Star Wars, Transformers, and Star Trek -- that they'll retain that essential core of inspiration that was there at the beginning, and that can't be extinguished by any amount of mishandling along the way.

And, as frustrating as it can be sometimes to see something that just works better than what we got, it's still satisfyingly cathartic to see that it doesn't have to be that way. I think that's how I've gotten through the dark times of those properties -- even when I've had to walk away for a few years it got so bad.

I've written long outlines in the past about how I would have done the prequels long after ROTS was released but ultimately for me I found it a much more helpful exercise in learning how to structure my stories rather than worry about correcting the errors in Lucas's. I can certainly appreciate your dedication to trying your hand at restructuring the saga as a means to see how it could work differently because I've done it too.

By the time TFA was released and ultimately TLJ I have made suggestions for what could have been done differently, more out of illustrating the point that it could have been done better than what we got, than for any real attachment to the story ideas I presented. I felt ROTJ was a satisfying conclusion to Luke's story and while it does have some flaws I can forgive it those because emotionally I felt it rounded his character arc out really well.

I'm much more content to just love the three I grew up on and the only hope I'm really holding onto is for a properly restored theatrical cut, but I'm not even counting so much on that.

Any analysis or criticism I have towards the series is better suited to use as a means of bettering my own fiction and not so much as a means to correct Star Wars. I'm much the same about fan fiction as I am about fan films. I'll just use whatever creative energies I have to focus on building my own world rather than play in George's.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

The EU was never canon in the first place. When it began, it was said that George/LFL wasn't beholden to any of it should they decide to make more films. The caveat was there from the get-go. The fact that people still get bent out of shape over it amazes me to no end.

It is more messy and complex than that, though, which is why some people get so wound up about it. The term didn't even exist until some time in the mid-'90s, well into the Renaissance, once they realized there was a lot more ancillary content coming than had been previously. I mentioned a while back the disparity between when the OT was coming out and after its momentum ceased (Ewok TV movies, Ewoks and Droids cartoons, etc.). From 1977 to 1990, we had the Goodwin newspaper comic strips, the Marvel comic series, one novel, six novellas, and a mattering of junior-readers stuff. By contrast, over the same span after the Renaissance (1991-2003), we got sixty-five novels, five short-story anthologies, a good forty or more Dark Horse Comics series and miniseries (depending on how one counts them), seventy young-readers books, and something like thirty video games (that were original-content, not adaptations of the films).

And not long after that (with a couple more years of ongoing ancillary content and another film), in an interview in the August '05 issue of Starlog, George said, of the EU:

I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.

But -- again demonstrating George has a loose grasp of his own personal timeline, here's what George has been involved with up to that point in the EU:

• James Luceno based his book Labyrinth of Evil on the background Lucas informed him of, of what happened right before Revenge of the Sith. Lucas also allowed him to explore the backstory of Sifo-Dyas and the mystery behind Kamino's erasure from the Jedi Archives, two plot points he originally intended to reveal in Revenge of the Sith.
• Lucas gave Genndy Tartakovsky information on specific events during the Clone Wars, which Genndy used in part of the Star Wars: Clone Wars microseries.
• When Terry Brooks was writing the novelization of The Phantom Menace, Lucas informed him of the extensive history of the Sith and Jedi before that time period, so he could include it in his book. For example, the character of Darth Bane is an original creation of Lucas', and although he did not include information on the character in his films, he informed Terry Brooks of the character to incorporate into the novelization. Lucas also gave Brooks other extensive bits of info of what went on during The Phantom Menace.
• Lucas wrote the prologue for Matthew Stover's novel Shatterpoint.
• During the production of the Shadows of the Empire multimedia project, Lucas instructed those involved to base the Prince Xizor character on this alien from The Star Wars Holiday Special (link to the clearer retouched image from the card game).
• Lucas met with Roy Thomas to help plan the early storylines for Marvel's Star Wars, and personally approved the direction Thomas planned to take the series.
• Lucas selected Archie Goodwin to become a writer for the Star Wars comic strip.
• Lucas helped Kevin J. Anderson develop aspects of the Sith and provided background notes for the Tales of the Jedi comics and The Jedi Academy Trilogy novels.
• Lucas decided that Delta Squad should have colored armor in Star Wars: Republic Commando, to match Episode III.
• Lucas instructed John Ostrander on the fate of Quinlan Vos in Republic 83: Hidden Enemy, Part 3.
• Lucas decreed that, following Episode III, Palpatine has only minor concern over the remaining Jedi.
• Lucas established that Darth Plagueis is a Muun.

So he always felt free to meddle in the EU -- he just couldn't be arsed to keep track of what those people then did with his input. Especially maddening when he contradicted his past self. For all the quality issues with many offerings -- why my print collection is less than half of what's been published (though I do have all the comics) -- there has tended to be more internal consistency from Heir to the Empire on than one finds in the the film saga. So for a lot of readers, that reliability is what they miss. Now, "always in motion is the future", and having that foundation pulled out from under their fandom puts a lot of people off-balance, which makes them scared and irritable and, well... Fear leads to anger, et cetera.

 

[DARTH ANIBAL]

I genuinely like the prequels better than the ST.

"Then you are lost!"

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I've written long outlines in the past about how I would have done the prequels long after ROTS was released but ultimately for me I found it a much more helpful exercise in learning how to structure my stories rather than worry about correcting the errors in Lucas's. I can certainly appreciate your dedication to trying your hand at restructuring the saga as a means to see how it could work differently because I've done it too.

I'd be curious in at least the broad strokes of where you went with it. And I'd be happy to offer my take in return, should you be interested. But not here -- PM if interested, so as to not muddy the ROS discussion.

I felt ROTJ was a satisfying conclusion to Luke's story and while it does have some flaws I can forgive it those because emotionally I felt it rounded his character arc out really well.

One of the things missing from George's notes or any exploration of (at least, I've never seen such) is what happens after he defeats the Emperor. By that point he'd read Campbell and knew the Hero's Journey. He refers to Luke's Final Trial a few times, but omits the next stage. I don't know how much he ever even thought about it. That's about two-thirds to three-quarters of the way through the cycle. And there are a couple very different ways it could go for Luke from there. George had no clear vision of what would come after that for him, and I saw the same thing through the EU -- he's just kind of... there, not really doing much on the galactic stage except dispensing snippets of regurgitated Jedi wisdom to a new generation of hopefuls.

At the threshold back to the Known World from the Unknown World is the big decision gate. The Hero has attained apotheosis -- the ultimate expression of their self and power and ability. They can get no better. At this point, they either trans-substantiate to the heavens or return to the world and live out their life, diminishing into normalcy. The only guidance George gave -- after the fact and very indirectly -- is away from the latter option. The EU had Luke become a teacher and get married and have a kid. Normalcy. George said no to the family part. But the Hero can't just remain detached from the world indefinitely, never returning to it and the life they left for the Journey.

Arndt said, of writing the early drafts for what would become TFA, that every time Luke showed up in the story, he kinda took over. That's because when we last saw him, he was at the veritable peak of his Hero-ness. Since George had vetoed him fading into normalness, they opted for trans-substantiation. I... have thoughts.

Any analysis or criticism I have towards the series is better suited to use as a means of bettering my own fiction and not so much as a means to correct Star Wars. I'm much the same about fan fiction as I am about fan films. I'll just use whatever creative energies I have to focus on building my own world rather than play in George's.

Also fair. I've never been good at that. I prefer playing in other people's sandboxes. Every attempt I've made at creating my own original universe, I can't help but see everything I'm deriving its elements from, and I get frustrated.

 

[jarvis]

It will turn out Kylo has been possessed by the force ghost of Palpetine since the Jedi school incident. That's the reason Luke disapeared himself in TLJ, he figured it out and has to cross over to help fight Palpetine from the spirit realm. With Luke's help Rey will beat him within an inch of his life casting out Palp's spirit in the process, thereby relinquishing Kylo's past sins. They will get together, have a kid and name him Skywalker Solo (rise of the skywalker). credits roll.

 

[sztriki]

It will turn out Kylo has been possessed by the force ghost of Palpetine since the Jedi school incident. That's the reason Luke disapeared himself in TLJ, he figured it out and has to cross over to help fight Palpetine from the spirit realm. With Luke's help Rey will beat him within an inch of his life casting out Palp's spirit in the process, thereby relinquishing Kylo's past sins. They will get together, have a kid and name him Skywalker Solo (rise of the skywalker). credits roll.

I need to bookmark this cuz this sounds so eerily plausible that it hurts.

 

[Joek3rr]

I'd be curious in at least the broad strokes of where you went with it. And I'd be happy to offer my take in return, should you be interested. But not here -- PM if interested, so as to not muddy the ROS discussion.

I've written long outlines in the past about how I would have done the prequels long after ROTS was released but ultimately for me I found it a much more helpful exercise in learning how to structure my stories rather than worry about correcting the errors in Lucas's. I can certainly appreciate your dedication to trying your hand at restructuring the saga as a means to see how it could work differently because I've done it too.

By the time TFA was released and ultimately TLJ I have made suggestions for what could have been done differently, more out of illustrating the point that it could have been done better than what we got, than for any real attachment to the story ideas I presented. I felt ROTJ was a satisfying conclusion to Luke's story and while it does have some flaws I can forgive it those because emotionally I felt it rounded his character arc out really well.

If you two wanted to share your ideas on my 'Let's talk all things Star Wars' thread, that would be awesome!

One of the things missing from George's notes or any exploration of (at least, I've never seen such) is what happens after he defeats the Emperor. By that point he'd read Campbell and knew the Hero's Journey. He refers to Luke's Final Trial a few times, but omits the next stage. I don't know how much he ever even thought about it. That's about two-thirds to three-quarters of the way through the cycle. And there are a couple very different ways it could go for Luke from there. George had no clear vision of what would come after that for him, and I saw the same thing through the EU -- he's just kind of... there, not really doing much on the galactic stage except dispensing snippets of regurgitated Jedi wisdom to a new generation of hopefuls.

At the threshold back to the Known World from the Unknown World is the big decision gate. The Hero has attained apotheosis -- the ultimate expression of their self and power and ability. They can get no better. At this point, they either trans-substantiate to the heavens or return to the world and live out their life, diminishing into normalcy. The only guidance George gave -- after the fact and very indirectly -- is away from the latter option. The EU had Luke become a teacher and get married and have a kid. Normalcy. George said no to the family part. But the Hero can't just remain detached from the world indefinitely, never returning to it and the life they left for the Journey.

Arndt said, of writing the early drafts for what would become TFA, that every time Luke showed up in the story, he kinda took over. That's because when we last saw him, he was at the veritable peak of his Hero-ness. Since George had vetoed him fading into normalness, they opted for trans-substantiation. I... have thoughts.

That's something I noticed, as I dipping my toes in Joseph Campbell's hero's journey/mono-myth. Is Luke story doesn't seem to come full circle, if you end with ROTJ. That's one of the things I like about TLJ, and least visually, you have Luke coming full circle. Looking at double sun set. Just a little bit of visual poetry, the kind George is rather fond of.

 

[thegnome]

I hope its better than episode eight

 

[Joek3rr]

Easter egg or something else?

 

[Halliwax]

just re use of props i think.

 

[Captain Dunsel]

As I read through some of this thread, while I do agree with every criticism made, (and I have thrown a ton of grenades at the Sequel Trilogy—and specifically TLJ—myself) I should probably temper my reactions by reminding myself of what the “Star Wars” films were always intended to be; serialized popcorn flicks that could be leveraged for merchandising. That’s it.

It is my own subjective lens that invests a ton of weight in these films that the creators really never intended.

Maybe if I (speaking only for myself) relaxed a bit more I would enjoy the product more. Maybe if I invested as little thought in the writing, characters, and plot as the creators of the new trilogy have, I would enjoy them more.

Maybe???

 

[thegnome]

Lando Calrissian is in episode nine which is awesome. He reminds me of Sam Malone from Cheers.

 

[Tan Djarka]

So, any advanced word on a trailer for SDCC?

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

So, any advanced word on a trailer for SDCC?

There will not be a panel at SDCC. There are thinking there be one at D23 late August so maybe look for a trailer release in conjunction with that.

 

[cboath]

Doesn't seem smart. You'd think after the last one they'd be wanting to stir up positive word and they don't seem to be doing anything just pushing it back and hoarding it for themselves at an investor's event.

 

[Jaitea]

With all the great films at the minute Star Wars seems to be completely off the boil

J

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

SDCC just doesn’t seem to be the event for studios any more. Sony also announced they wouldn’t be presenting at sdcc as well.

 

[JoeG]

Doesn't seem smart. You'd think after the last one they'd be wanting to stir up positive word and they don't seem to be doing anything just pushing it back and hoarding it for themselves at an investor's event.

The D23 Expo is not an investor's event. D23 is the official fan club of Disney. The expo they have every 2 years is open to the public. They get just as much, if not more, traction out of that as a panel at SDCC. Rather than being just 1 of many studios people are reporting on, they'll own the entire weekend.

 

[Tan Djarka]

SDCC just doesn’t seem to be the event for studios any more. Sony also announced they wouldn’t be presenting at sdcc as well.

Maybe it's returning to it's roots? Comic books... Just comic books.

 

[Psab keel]

Honestly it's more a pop culture convention than anything else. I'm sure after the reception of 8 Disney is trying play it safe on the 9 promotion including trailers.