Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Pre-release)

[Joek3rr]

When I saw a sky filled with Resistance ships packed tighter than a portly mans sock in the TROS trailer my immediate thought was 2 Star Destroyers pulling the Hyperkazi move would take most of it out in one hit. Thanks Rian.

No, 2 Star Destroyers hyperspace ramming isn't going to take most of those ships out. At best they'll take one each. At best. Unless it's a bunch of smaller craft, then heck you wouldn't even need to hyperspace ram.

 

[ConvergencePro]

Rey has known of the Force for 19 years. She's had more time on her own to connect with the Force then any of the other heroes we've seen. It's been her constant companion all of her life.

The quote is from Joseph Campbell. It's not that women don't have to struggle. But their struggle is very very different from a man's. This is from Maureen Murdock, a student of Campbell's, that created the Heroine's Journey. "The feminine journey is about going down deep into soul, healing and reclaiming, while the masculine journey is up and out, to spirit.”

You'll notice though with Luke, that all of his Force abilities he learned on his own. They just came to him.

And I agree with you on that one. It's Luke's rage and anger(the Dark Side) that give him the upper hand against Vader. Not his magically improved lightsaber skills.

Where is that conveyed anywhere in the film other than Rey's apparent Force autopilot? Also with Luke we got a very brief training session with Obi-wan on the falcon, creating a foundation for Lukes having begun training and understanding the force before any force abilities manifest in him. The gap between ANH and ESB can be filled with whatever the audience wants to imagine, whether Luke continued entirely on his own, or if Obi-wan left him things to learn from. It doesn't matter what it was, what matters is Luke was shown to the audience to have begun training, and by the end of the film begun to use the force. It didn't just magically happen to him because it needed to happen

 

[Psab keel]

The heroes journey can be applied to anyone regardless of gender. It sounds like Maureen Murdock wants to co opt life by having to assign gender roles to it. While there may be variations on the adventure (the hero with a thousand faces) and there are blatant differences in the sexes, I don't think in storytelling terms that the basic principles of fiction should be judged by different criteria. That's absurd. Either the story is good or it's bad. It's really that simple.

The heroes journey is a metaphorical expression of the human experience that transcends gender, race, creed, sexual orientation, etc. By defining a character (or person for that matter) solely on one of those elements of an entire personality then you reduce them down to nothing more than a construct and not as a human being. Often it's the very definition of sexist, racist etc.

I'm not suggesting that you think in this way Joek3rr, not at all, but this is the issue I take with injecting identity politics into entertainment and disguising it as a push for diversity for its own sake and not in service to a story.

Representation is important in media but not when it calls attention to itself because then it becomes virtue signaling and not about addressing the issue at hand, which in this case is telling a good story.

 

[Joek3rr]

Where is that conveyed anywhere in the film other than Rey's apparent Force autopilot? Also with Luke we got a very brief training session with Obi-wan on the falcon, creating a foundation for Lukes having begun training and understanding the force before any force abilities manifest in him. The gap between ANH and ESB can be filled with whatever the audience wants to imagine, whether Luke continued entirely on his own, or if Obi-wan left him things to learn from. It doesn't matter what it was, what matters is Luke was shown to the audience to have begun training, and by the end of the film begun to use the force. It didn't just magically happen to him because it needed to happen

"I am no Jedi, but I know the Force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes. Feel it. The light. It's always been there.(that's 19 years) It will guide you.

"Something inside me has always been there."(again that's 19 years)

 

[Joek3rr]

The heroes journey can be applied to anyone regardless of gender. It sounds like Maureen Murdock wants to co opt life by having to assign gender roles to it. While there may be variations on the adventure (the hero with a thousand faces) and there are blatant differences in the sexes, I don't think in storytelling terms that the basic principles of fiction should be judged by different criteria. That's absurd. Either the story is good or it's bad. It's really that simple.

The heroes journey is a metaphorical expression of the human experience that transcends gender, race, creed, sexual orientation, etc. By defining a character (or person for that matter) solely on one of those elements of an entire personality then you reduce them down to nothing more than a construct and not as a human being. Often it's the very definition of sexist, racist etc.

I'm not suggesting that you think in this way Joek3rr, not at all, but this is the issue I take with injecting identity politics into entertainment and disguising it as a push for diversity for its own sake and not in service to a story.

Representation is important in media but not when it calls attention to itself because then it becomes virtue signaling and not about addressing the issue at hand, which in this case is telling a good story.

If I'm understanding you, I think I agree and maybe disagree. As I see it there are elements of the hero's journey that belong and work eith both male and female characters. But the hero's journey is largely male focused. Hence the hero will encounter trials like the temptress. I mean in Joseph Campbell's own words, he says the woman doesn't go on the heroes journey. (Just think about the number of myths and legends that the main character is a woman. Off the top of my head, the closest person I can think of would be Jean d'Arc but that's more history then myth) So Maureen's goal was to adapt the hero's journey, for women. Because women, face different struggles and temptations then the man. Women and men are very very different beings.(thank goodness!) So the hero's journey doesn't work as effectively for women. As I understand it. Charlotte Brontë did something similar with Jane Eyre.

I found this to be an interesting read. Not sure I agree with everything. But it gives you an idea of the differences and similarities between the the hero's and heroine's journey.

Why Screenwriters Should Embrace The Heroine's Journey - ScreenCraft

Ken Miyamoto explores the differences between The Hero's Journey and The Heroine's Journey, and discusses why screenwriters should embrace the latter.

screencraft.org

 

[Axlotl]

THAN. You write "then" every time, when you mean "than".

"First we'll go here, THEN we'll go there."
"I'd rather be here THAN there."

 

[jhazard]

"I am no Jedi, but I know the Force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes. Feel it. The light. It's always been there.(that's 19 years) It will guide you.

"Something inside me has always been there."(again that's 19 years)

This suggests Rey felt "something". It does not suggest she knew it was the Force (she thought it was all a myth in her conversation with Han) or that she actively persued training, practicing her connection to it - or using it to enhance her performance or gain an advantage in any way (climbing, fighting, persuasion, etc).

She didn't know "the force" for 19 years.

Even after piloting the falcon unlike it's ever been flown before, she admits not knowing how she did. Imo, that shows she's not familiar with "using" the force at all - before her encounter with Kylo.

Rey (and the audience) needed Maz and the Saber to tell her what it was and how to feel it. She didn't identify it as the force before that.

 

[Psab keel]

I agree that the story will evolve when writing for certain types of characters and may not fit the hero cycle exactly as Campbell outlined it. Often even the most successful stories don't hit every single beat in the narrative but largely do the full cycle, ocaissinally omitting parts. As far as the article you linked, it had some interesting points, but it seemed to want to focus on female leads who have to prove their worth as women and not every story with a heroine needs to be about that. Wonder Woman was a great example of a story of proving her worth and one I really enjoyed as a movie, but someone like Sarah Conner in T1 and T2 wasn't out to prove her worth so much as the journey she experienced helped her embrace a resilience she didn't even know she possessed.

It all comes down to how well the writer is able to create characters who are relatable and charismatic enough to carry a story, regardless of their gender, etc.

I just feel like Star Wars itself has done better than Rey as a female character. Not only with Princess Leia but countless others though out the novels, comics, etc.

Not to mention the numerous strong female leads in other films. Is it great that this new trilogy has a female protagonist? Absolutely! I just wish they did a better job writing her and she's not a pioneer as far as female characters go, despite what Disney wants people to think.

 

[cboath]

I always giggled that George Lucas had a problem with the original “Star Wars” not having the image of a Ronto butt preceding the famous “these arent’t the droids you’re looking for" scene, and took the time to fix that in the Special Editions...

View attachment 1079114

...but he was perfectly happy with the Rebel briefing graphics being brought to you by the Atari 2600.

View attachment 1079113

I got news for you, the 2600 couldn't do graphics that good

 

[cboath]

Rey has known of the Force for 19 years. She's had more time on her own to connect with the Force then any of the other heroes we've seen. It's been her constant companion all of her life.

The quote is from Joseph Campbell. It's not that women don't have to struggle. But their struggle is very very different from a man's. This is from Maureen Murdock, a student of Campbell's, that created the Heroine's Journey. "The feminine journey is about going down deep into soul, healing and reclaiming, while the masculine journey is up and out, to spirit.”

You'll notice though with Luke, that all of his Force abilities he learned on his own. They just came to him.

And I agree with you on that one. It's Luke's rage and anger(the Dark Side) that give him the upper hand against Vader. Not his magically improved lightsaber skills.

I've had 40+ years to watch guys play NFL football. Doesn't mean i can do jack #$%( in regards to professional football. Nor that i ever could have. Knowing about something does not equal being able to use or excel at it, UNLESS you've specifically been training for it that whole time. If she'd already had ability, they'd have show it to us in the lead up on Jakku - they gave us nothing. She may have known it existed, but had no clue she had the ability to use it.

 

[Psab keel]

Precisely. Having a vague awareness of something is NOT the same thing as having expertise.

 

[ConvergencePro]

If I'm understanding you, I think I agree and maybe disagree. As I see it there are elements of the hero's journey that belong and work eith both male and female characters. But the hero's journey is largely male focused. Hence the hero will encounter trials like the temptress. I mean in Joseph Campbell's own words, he says the woman doesn't go on the heroes journey. (Just think about the number of myths and legends that the main character is a woman. Off the top of my head, the closest person I can think of would be Jean d'Arc but that's more history then myth) So Maureen's goal was to adapt the hero's journey, for women. Because women, face different struggles and temptations then the man. Women and men are very very different beings.(thank goodness!) So the hero's journey doesn't work as effectively for women. As I understand it. Charlotte Brontë did something similar with Jane Eyre.

I found this to be an interesting read. Not sure I agree with everything. But it gives you an idea of the differences and similarities between the the hero's and heroine's journey.

Why Screenwriters Should Embrace The Heroine's Journey - ScreenCraft

Ken Miyamoto explores the differences between The Hero's Journey and The Heroine's Journey, and discusses why screenwriters should embrace the latter.

screencraft.org

So wait, a female protagonists following the Hero’s Journey couldnt encounter a “temptress” because why exactly?
Id recommend you read the Witcher books to see just how wrong this concept is

 

[Laspector]

Now I know why bullies beat up Star Wars geeks in High school. I get it now.

 

[Mr Webber]

No, 2 Star Destroyers hyperspace ramming isn't going to take most of those ships out. At best they'll take one each. At best. Unless it's a bunch of smaller craft, then heck you wouldn't even need to hyperspace ram.

Well the ships in that scene are much closer to each other than the ones that were in that last dogs breakfast of a movie and they were all obliterated so basically in my opinion, you're wrong.

 

[Psab keel]

Am I a nerd?

 

[Master Boda]

Am I a nerd?

I think a lot of are nerds and bullies like FPJ call us names even when we don’t fit the bill.
The more I hear about the leaks for this movie has my curiosity peaked,might be a decent movie or one hell of a train wreck.

 

[Joek3rr]

This suggests Rey felt "something". It does not suggest she knew it was the Force (she thought it was all a myth in her conversation with Han) or that she actively persued training, practicing her connection to it - or using it to enhance her performance or gain an advantage in any way (climbing, fighting, persuasion, etc).

She didn't know "the force" for 19 years.

Even after piloting the falcon unlike it's ever been flown before, she admits not knowing how she did. Imo, that shows she's not familiar with "using" the force at all - before her encounter with Kylo.

Rey (and the audience) needed Maz and the Saber to tell her what it was and how to feel it. She didn't identify it as the force before that.

I've had 40+ years to watch guys play NFL football. Doesn't mean i can do jack #$%( in regards to professional football. Nor that i ever could have. Knowing about something does not equal being able to use or excel at it, UNLESS you've specifically been training for it that whole time. If she'd already had ability, they'd have show it to us in the lead up on Jakku - they gave us nothing. She may have known it existed, but had no clue she had the ability to use it.

She thought Luke was a myth, not the Force. I mean she has some knowledge of the Force. As unlike Luke, she doesn't go 'what the heck is the Force?' I would say that her mere existence and survival, a little girl growing up on her own on Jakku, suggests, that the Force has been some sort of companion. Does she 'know' about the Force? No. But she does know of something. Like Shmi and Anakin, they realize that Anakin has something special. Do they know that it's specifically the Force? I don't think so. But they know there's 'something' that allows him to fly podracers.

And again I remind people that we've seen a young boy and a toddler, who both 'know' of something, and it's just instinctive and innate that they lift objects with their minds.

 

[Psab keel]

I know I am. I was just laughing at myself.

 

[Master Boda]

She thought Luke was a myth, not the Force. I mean she has some knowledge of the Force. As unlike Luke, she doesn't go 'what the heck is the Force?' I would say that her mere existence and survival, a little girl growing up on her own on Jakku, suggests, that the Force has been some sort of companion. Does she 'know' about the Force? No. But she does know of something. Like Shmi and Anakin, they realize that Anakin has something special. Do they know that it's specifically the Force? I don't think so. But they know there's 'something' that allows him to fly podracers.

And again I remind people that we've seen a young boy and a toddler, who both 'know' of something, and it's just instinctive and innate that they lift objects with their minds.

In TFA when Han found Rey and Finn aboard the Falcon,Han was telling them about Luke looking for the first Jedi temple,Rey replied “the Jedi were real”.Rey thought Luke and the Jedi were a myth,without the Jedi there would be no knowledge of the Force.So how does Rey not know of Luke and the Jedi but know of the Force?

 

[ConvergencePro]

In TFA when Han found Rey and Finn aboard the Falcon,Han was telling them about Luke looking for the first Jedi temple,Rey replied “the Jedi were real”.Rey thought Luke and the Jedi were a myth,without the Jedi there would be no knowledge of the Force.So how does Rey not know of Luke and the Jedi but know of the Force?

CLEARLY its all because the Light rises to meet the Dark

oh I made myself sad now...