Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Pre-release)

IMO, Joek3r mostly reacts to the critiques, quite efectively may I add. So effective that it causes a lot of frustration and puts in perspective the poor knowledge a lot of these people really have about these stories.
:confused::cautious::unsure::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

His knowledge of Star Wars, in-universe and real-world lore and history, is indeed prodigious. Why I don't dismiss him out of hand. But he is also the very definition of an apologist, in both the literal sense and the vernacular (no, seriously, you can check me on this -- go look it up). Yes, there are a few people who are determined to hate all the "Disney Star Wars" offerings in all media, and I feel pity for them. Others, like myself, could go toe-to-toe with him on deep-delve lore (like how George actually hadn't read or heard of Joseph Campbell when he wrote Star Wars, and it was only people telling him how his movie was the Hero's Journey that prompted him to afterward, or how Harrison re-wrote most of the horrible dialogue George had written for Han, or how the Sequel Trilogy plot thumbnail was written by George well before the sale to Disney, or... but you get the idea). But it's more than that.

I have been reading since I was 2 or 3. I remember getting up early before school in kindergarten to watch Star Blazers. I was a well-behaved kid and my parents took me with them to the movies, so I saw Star Wars when I was 2, Star Trek: TMP and ESB when I was 5, Wrath of Khan when I was 6, ROTJ when I was 8... And kicked into higher gear once I hit 9 and 10 years old -- Ghostbusters, Gremlins, Buckaroo Banzai, 2010, Terminator, Search for Spock, Back to the Future... They were also first-generation Trekkies, in college at the time, and some of those who wrote in to try to save the show each time. So I grew up with that on as background noise. Being raised by people with such inquisitive minds, dedicated bibliophiles, audiophiles, cinemaphiles... Well, these days I've got well over a thousand books (of which only about fifty are in my to-be-read stack), three thousand comics, hundreds of movies, anime, TV series, documentaries...

I have gotten, I like to think, a decently-honed sense of what constitutes a well-structured, well-written story, in all those media and more. And my -- and others' -- well-informed critique that George had a lot of ideas but never liked actually writing, that he liked the technology and process but hated working with people, that his inherent lack of a writer's instinct led to egregious and irreparable flaws in the structure of his Star Wars universe right from the get-go, that other people coming in later and misinterpreting things or being otherwise intellectually lazy has sometimes contributed gems, but more often compounded existing issues or introduced new ones -- all that is based on understanding, not lack of.

George had occasional spasms of self-awareness, when he told on himself, when he acknowledged his shortcomings and sought assistance to shore them up, which makes the rest of it all the more frustrating to us. We see, from what we've gotten, hints of what it could have been with a skilled writer taking his ideas and fleshing them out, a knowledgeable producer to ease the load on his shoulders and encourage him to let the story take as long as it takes to tell and not rush it, an instinctive editor like Marcia who can push for inclusions and exclusions that help the story, and so on like that. We love what we love, and because we know what we do about the craft, we know how much better it could have been, and how easily it could have been so. You said above that what might be "better" for some might be worse for those who like what we've got. I argue we're not really trying to undo any of the major story beats -- just present them better. Like Animaniacs had stuff that appealed to adults while sailing over kids' heads, but also had stuff that appealed to kids that adults enjoyed, too, I don't think it's an impossible goal. Psab keel can tell you the degree to which I believe this, but you seem to not be a fan of his, so there's that.

When we say that the shot framing in the prequels is flat and amateurish, we can (and have) pointed to exactly what we mean, and provide comparisons. When we say that the story is compressed and vital information is missing, we're not just stupid or lack movie-comprehension skills. We know there's stuff in the ancillary material (video games, comics, novels, magazine articles) that fills in some of the holes, but it is a valid argument that one should not have to read the tie-in fiction to be able to follow what's going on. The failure of the people actually writing the Sequel Trilogy is that they started in media res, like the original, but that doesn't work, because there's a body of six films and a TV series behind it now. The prior episode left off with a particular state of affairs. The opening crawl of the first new episode needs to bring the audience up to speed with absolute need-to-know. First paragraph, the tone of this episode and what happened previously. Second paragraph, a thumbnail of what's happened between then and now. Third/final paragraph, setting up context of the opening shot.

TFA's crawl did okay on #3 (Leia's sent Poe to get the map piece, and that's what we see, more or less, once we transition from the crawl to the movie), but failed utterly on #1. Luke disappearing needs to be later, not the first sentence. To tell us what's happened since the Ewok party, the context we're coming into, it needs to read more like:
A generation has passed and the galaxy has become tense once more. Fractious politics in the New Republic Senate threaten to tear that body asunder the same way the Old Republic collapsed.

Recently, a new group calling themselves the First Order has been encroaching on the edges of Republic space. Senator Leia Organa, her warnings ignored, has resigned to form a resistance movement.

But then a mysterious calamity befell Luke Skywalker's new Jedi training center and he disappeared. Leia, desperate to find her brother, has sent her most trusted pilot to run down a lead....
Or something. It is a valid criticism to say the audience needed to be better informed of what had transpired since the last episode. Not everything, but enough to not be spending the whole movie trying to figure out what was going on. And, further, it is valid to say there needed to be a little more of the "old normal" ROTJ established at the beginning, even as things were crumbling. It is valid to say it should not be treated like the original film, i.e. hinting at nonexistent previous episodes that we just "missed". WE are going from episode VI to VII and theoretically haven't missed anything. We, the audience, should have, based on how people in the movie are responding to things, seen Luke training Ben, Ben's turn, the destruction of the training center, Luke telling Han and Leia and leaving despite their pleas, and the First Order finally making their move at least before moving on from there with Poe getting the map piece and so forth.

We have also, with few exceptions, maintaind all along that there are a lot of moments and elements and aspects of all the films that we like, to varying individual degrees and including the Prequels and Sequels, and not a blanket 100% "we hate everything about this movie and anyone who likes it is an idiot" (and the Wook's been banned for beating that long-dead horse). We are saying we like something (or are trying to like somethign or want to like something) despite its flaws, while the rebuttal we are getting is "you're mistaken -- it has no flaws". Over, and over, and over, and over. We get Joek3rr's position, and he has frequent good insights and arguments, but he is in error where the facts are concerned in this case. He points out information that explains things people are confused by that was in this novel or that game, while ignoring that it should have been in the movie. He points out that there's limited screen time, while ignoring that there should have been more movies for the story to have the room it needed to be told. He defends every creative choice with the vehemence of a True Believer, impervious to any objective argument about how this character arc is forced, or that sequence was badly staged, or this scene needed to be in this movie while that scene needed to be cut, etc., etc.

Effective would be if he acknowledged our points, considered them, and maybe once in a while conceded that one or another had some credence. The overwhelming sense we who engage with him have is that, to oversimplify, the execution of the Sequel Trilogy has been the Emperor's New Clothes, we're saying the Emperor is naked, and he (and you) are saying no he isn't it's the finest silk and ermine and if you can't see it you obviously need to educate yourself.
 
However my overall opinion is probably based on the fact I love reading, so extra books to read are never an issue for me really, when it comes to even gaining even a slight bit of extra info from them

Extra books are great and all and can certainly help add creative elements to any existing story... but requiring your audience to seek out 3rd party information in order to understan core elements behind whats going on in your new story which is a sequel to a preexisting universe?? To me thats a serious issue and glaring hallmark of bad writing. A film’s story should really be able to stand on its own and likewise its sequels follow suit. It’s clear they simply didn’t think they needed to put that effort in simply because StarWars...

These new ST films have honestly made me appreciate the PT more even with all its flaws

The OT is a product of someone wanting to create something along with the help of dozens of others for support, guidance and forced revision where necessary

The PT is a product of someone wanting to create something again, but this time trying to prove they can do it without anyone questioning their ideas. A wonderful dream at which they failed miserably

The ST is a product of a giant corporation who bought the property and is trying to recreate that same something to generate $$$$ and no other reason, and it really does show in the total lack of care put into it
 
Correction, blew up 5 planets. You can't blow up a system as it's a collection of items and they didn't blow up the sun(s). Any ships no on planet/orbit should have been fine.
Is a sun by itself a system, though? Also (and, again, this needed to be stated on screen, not in the ancillary material), the entire New Republic Navy had been de-mobilized and was in port at (IIRC) Hosnian Prime's moon. There may be one or a few ships still out there, but that strike did, in fact, wipe out the entire New Republic military.
 
So someone challenges you in Star Wars knowledge has a different opinion and is an apologist? LOL! Whatever you say..... And BTW neither him or I or anyone with a different opinion has ever said the ST is perfect. On the other hand some of you treat the OT like it was perfect...it wasn't. Most of you saw the OT through the eyes of a child, not an adult. Of course we believe these were the most awesome films ever made. If you could see them objectively you will see they have as many if not more flaws sometimes, than the OT. You will never, ever have the same reaction to ANY Star Wars film done today like the one you had in 1977 when the first movie was shown in theaters....never. Some have a tough time with that fact and thats okay. The unhealthy side of this is how obsessive some "fans" have become thinking they own the story, news flash, none of you own it. It is what it is. I take it as it is, ENTERTAINMENT.

Having said that some of you still bring the most absurd, nit pick things to find and basically complain endlessly about it. Most recent one? Not seeing Kylos cape reflection a puddle of water....please, really? The OT movies are PLAGUED....PLAGUED by similar errors, some even worse and yet is more convenient to just ignore it. I think some of you need to seriously move on.
 
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Having said that some of you still bring the most absurd, nit pick things to find and basically complain endlessly about it. Most recent one? Not seeing Kylos cape reflection a puddle of water....please, really? The OT movies are PLAGUED....PLAGUED by similar errors, some even worse and yet is more convenient to just ignore it. I think some of you need to seriously move on.
Yea, you in the first place. Really tried my best not to provide trollfood, but since you called me out on it...

Was the reflection there? No. So where did I make something heinous by pointing it out? Did I say the whole thing sucks and is rubbish and is worthless because there’s a goof in the visual effects? No. I merely pointed out a goof I noticed. I also pointed out the stormtrooper who bangs his head in the doorway and the fact that Han has his vest on the closeup and goes down to the freezing chamber without it when I noticed them back in the day. Along with quite a few goofs I noticed in Jaws, Highlander, Back to the Future, Terminator, Gremlins etc and I love those movies. The goofs are there still.
So if anybody needs to move on it’s probably the person who comes to this thread every once in a while to make snarky comments and pick fights with people who don’t love certain movies the same way.
 
Extra books are great and all and can certainly help add creative elements to any existing story... but requiring your audience to seek out 3rd party information in order to understan core elements behind whats going on in your new story which is a sequel to a preexisting universe?? To me thats a serious issue and glaring hallmark of bad writing. A film’s story should really be able to stand on its own and likewise its sequels follow suit. It’s clear they simply didn’t think they needed to put that effort in simply because StarWars...

These new ST films have honestly made me appreciate the PT more even with all its flaws

The OT is a product of someone wanting to create something along with the help of dozens of others for support, guidance and forced revision where necessary

The PT is a product of someone wanting to create something again, but this time trying to prove they can do it without anyone questioning their ideas. A wonderful dream at which they failed miserably

The ST is a product of a giant corporation who bought the property and is trying to recreate that same something to generate $$$$ and no other reason, and it really does show in the total lack of care put into it

Could say that, or could say there's no need to know every detail on the whys and wherefores in a film.

Bad writing? Possibly. It wouldn't be the first set of Star Wars films that were given that critique. However i'm not an expert in it, nor too bothered personally about thingsbeing left out of the films. I never needed to know why or how Luke built his green bladed saber, but loved it when I read it in the EU book that told me that info.

Don't get me wrong, i'd love to see parts i've read on the big screen. Having said that, I just can't get it into my head that it's an issue for me. In a strange way, I wish I could as I'd like to see what others are seeing that make them dislike the ST, as I might be able to understand their points probably far better than I do at the moment.
 
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Nope. I will not move on. Sorry. I have the same right as you to speak my mind. Its easier to try and turn things around and pretend everything is an attack, blah, blah, blah. I think its hypocritical to try to behave like saints when is EVIDENT most of you simply DONT like dealing with anyone with a different opinion. Me in the first place? A troll? Just because I think your point is absurd.....to me it is, and, get this, I will stay and intervene here as you do.

I contribute with builds and like to share my work with others. There are some here that love to post here and yet I have YET never seen NOTHING relatable to prop building and collecting, NOTHING. So I believe I will stay. Thank you
 
Well Starkiller blew up the Hosnian system. In one blow the Republic was leaderless and without a fleet. Many Republic world's decided to join the First Order. Some out of fear, some because they wanted security.

Well the FO was a big thing before they blew up the Hosnian system. So there was no point at all to get blown up with this little resistance.

Leia, whilst a senator, urged the New Republic to build its forces against the FO, but was ignored and ridiculed for it by her political opponents. One of which publicly revealed that Darth Vader was her father, which she had kept secret because she knew it would instantly ruin her politically (which it did).

This also was how Ben Solo found out who his grandfather was, which further alienated him from his parents, whom he already felt neglected and forgotten by.

All in the books available.... yeah, yeah I've heard the "why should we read books about it" argument before. Don't know the answer to that, and don't particularly care. Just sharing the info

Well, if you have to read books to get the whole plot then you made a ****** movie. Or in this case ****** movies.
I'm not UPF Star Wars fan. I love the OT and grew up with it and it influenced a lot in my life but what I really liked about the old canon was that the lore enriched the universe and did not fill up the cracks for lazy script writers.
 
Having said that some of you still bring the most absurd, nit pick things to find and basically complain endlessly about it. Most recent one? Not seeing Kylos cape reflection a puddle of water....please, really?
Its easier to try and turn things around and pretend everything is an attack, blah, blah, blah.
Rrright...


I think some of you need to seriously move on.
Nope. I will not move on. Sorry. I have the same right as you to speak my mind.
Okay...

I think its hypocritical to try to behave like saints when is EVIDENT most of you simply DONT like dealing with anyone with a different opinion

Uh-huh...sure.


Just because I think your point is absurd.....

Okay. Here's what I said:

Btw check closely the crane shot when Rey and Kylo are duelling on the Death Star wreckage with the waves all over...is it me or Kylo has no cape on his reflection?
What was so absurd?

I contribute with builds and like to share my work with others. There are some here that love to post here and yet I have YET never seen NOTHING relatable to prop building and collecting, NOTHING. So I believe I will stay. Thank you
I'm happy for you. Honestly. I've been working on a helicopter model in the past 3 months. Normally it'd take me a weekend to finish one, unfortunately I've had very little time and space for the hobby in the past couple of years. Didn't know we had to justify and prove ourselves to level up as members so that our opinions would be worth more than others'. For the record I truly thought that by saying "need to move on" you meant mentally move on and that's how my response was meant as well. I didn't even think you assumed that people need to physically get out of the forum.
 
Could say that, or could say there's no need to know every detail on the whys and wherefores in a film.

Bad writing? Possibly. It wouldn't be the first set of Star Wars films that were given that critique. However i'm not an expert in it, nor too bothered personally about thingsbeing left out of the films. I never needed to know why or how Luke built his green bladed saber, but loved it when I read it in the EU book that told me that info.

Don't get me wrong, i'd love to see parts i've read on the big screen. Having said that, I just can't get it into my head that it's an issue for me. In a strange way, I wish I could as I'd like to see what others are seeing that make them dislike the ST, as I might be able to understand their points probably far better than I do at the moment.

Luke having built a new lightsaber while having clearly honed his skills with the force during the brief time gap between ESB and ROTJ with pre-established training in ESB, and entirely new enemy faction with seemingly unending recources and power that literally destroys the government that took over after the Empires fall with little to no explanation as to how are VASTLY different things.

One is believable within the knowledge we have from the previous film, the other is jarring as hell and makes you feel like you’re missing and entire movie

Just like having the entire foundation of your next film revolve around a fuel deprived space chase with literally no explanation as to why the FO didn’t just send one ship on ahead to cut off the Resistance is Bad Writing

This Entire Thread in a nutshell. Goddamn Stockholm's syndrome
 
Extra books are great and all and can certainly help add creative elements to any existing story... but requiring your audience to seek out 3rd party information in order to understan core elements behind whats going on in your new story which is a sequel to a preexisting universe?? To me thats a serious issue and glaring hallmark of bad writing. A film’s story should really be able to stand on its own and likewise its sequels follow suit. It’s clear they simply didn’t think they needed to put that effort in simply because StarWars...

These new ST films have honestly made me appreciate the PT more even with all its flaws

The OT is a product of someone wanting to create something along with the help of dozens of others for support, guidance and forced revision where necessary

The PT is a product of someone wanting to create something again, but this time trying to prove they can do it without anyone questioning their ideas. A wonderful dream at which they failed miserably

The ST is a product of a giant corporation who bought the property and is trying to recreate that same something to generate $$$$ and no other reason, and it really does show in the total lack of care put into it

So this what I find funny about this.

You appreciate the PT more. Yet the PT is one big explanation of some dialogue in OT. It's literally ancillary material for the Orignal Trilogy. To show how the Emperor became the Emperor. How the Republic fell. How there was only a handful of Jedi. How Anakin fell. All this background for the Orignal Trilogy.

But now fast forward to the ST. It gives us about the same amount of information as the OT did. But suddenly everyone needs all this background to understand the story? Huh....
 
Luke having built a new lightsaber while having clearly honed his skills with the force during the brief time gap between ESB and ROTJ with pre-established training in ESB, and entirely new enemy faction with seemingly unending recources and power that literally destroys the government that took over after the Empires fall with little to no explanation as to how are VASTLY different things.

One is believable within the knowledge we have from the previous film, the other is jarring as hell and makes you feel like you’re missing and entire movie

Just like having the entire foundation of your next film revolve around a fuel deprived space chase with literally no explanation as to why the FO didn’t just send one ship on ahead to cut off the Resistance is Bad Writing

This Entire Thread in a nutshell. Goddamn Stockholm's syndrome

That's your opinion. Mine leads me to disagree with yours. Such is life...
 
So this what I find funny about this.

You appreciate the PT more. Yet the PT is one big explanation of some dialogue in OT. It's literally ancillary material for the Orignal Trilogy. To show how the Emperor became the Emperor. How the Republic fell. How there was only a handful of Jedi. How Anakin fell. All this background for the Orignal Trilogy.

But now fast forward to the ST. It gives us about the same amount of information as the OT did. But suddenly everyone needs all this background to understand the story? Huh....

I appreciate Prequels more now not because I like them more. They’re still garbage movies IMO. But I no longer view the PT a soulless cash grab like Ive come to view the ST. The Prequels are still really bad films, but for very different reasons. The Prequels are bad because Lucas wanted to prove to everybody he didn’t need all the people who questioned him and told him NO back when they made the OT. Core story wise those films are fairly alright, its in their execution that they fail.

The OT could do whatever the hell it wanted because it’s literally the beginning of the story and every sequel film in the OT after StarWars (ANH) followed suit with the information from the previous film. The ST are still SEQUELS to those core OT films and as such have to abide by the information given within them and their characters, or provide information within itself to fill that gap for a bridge. It doesn’t need to be everything but it cant be literally nothing which is what we got because they were too lazy to write for it knowing folks like yourself wont care about that because its a movie that has a StarWars label

Im not trying to convince you guys to dislike the ST films. I think its great you’re able to enjoy them and I honestly wish I could too because I honestly wanted to. Its ok to like bad movies. But I wont let a brand label allow me to make excuses for lazy writing. Giving genuine criticism of these things is how we improve them for the future
 
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So this what I find funny about this.

You appreciate the PT more. Yet the PT is one big explanation of some dialogue in OT. It's literally ancillary material for the Orignal Trilogy. To show how the Emperor became the Emperor. How the Republic fell. How there was only a handful of Jedi. How Anakin fell. All this background for the Orignal Trilogy.

But now fast forward to the ST. It gives us about the same amount of information as the OT did. But suddenly everyone needs all this background to understand the story? Huh....
Because the ST isn't starting from scratch, it's building on what came before it, the OT. If this was a Star Wars story that wasn't a continuation of the previous story, it wouldn't need to fill in the 30 missing years. The missing elements are apparently out there in ancillary material, if it was in the actual films the GA would know the answers too.
You seem like a pretty smart guy, I'm sure you get the concept.
EDIT: looks like Boba beat me to it!
 
So this what I find funny about this.

You appreciate the PT more. Yet the PT is one big explanation of some dialogue in OT. It's literally ancillary material for the Orignal Trilogy. To show how the Emperor became the Emperor. How the Republic fell. How there was only a handful of Jedi. How Anakin fell. All this background for the Orignal Trilogy.

But now fast forward to the ST. It gives us about the same amount of information as the OT did. But suddenly everyone needs all this background to understand the story? Huh....
This is the height of the cognitive dissonance people have with the "ST doesn't explain anything" crowd. Oh, the OT was first so it doesn't have to explain? Hoseshit! Complete, 100% fresh, prize-winning horse manure! People give a pass for the OT because they have nostalgia for it.. In fact, it gives us even LESS background than the ST does. We simply accepted that the OT didn't need to give us an explanation, because back then, people weren't entitled, spoiled, whiny little brats who have to shred everything down to last molecule and pick at it over and over and over until fans like myself don't even want to be fans anymore. My enjoyment of this franchise has become the bitter mote of what it once was for two reasons:
1. Disney pricing me outside of it.
2. The whiny fans.

The first movie literally saw Vader's helmet falling off in the cockpit of his TIE Fighter, but god forbid there's unfinished CGI in a half-second shot of a teaser trailer. Lucas' characters had better plot armor than the actual armor the Empire's enforcers wore. I mean, let's face it, the Empire's elite legion was defeated by teddy bears with neolithic weaponry... AND WE ****ING ACCEPTED THAT. The Empire existed, we didn't NEED to know why or how in 1977. Nobody effing cared!!! But god forbid we don't get some spoonfed expository ******** scene that would have been picked apart and derided anyway. Literally most of the background for the original characters Lucas pulled out of his ass in some interview, but suddenly we have a problem with ancillary material? The hypocrisy among this fandom is egregious. The fandom is undoubtedly the WORST thing that has ever happened to Star Wars.
 
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To add on to my previous post about this fandom: consider this... the fans became so terribly picky and whiny that we literally chased the creator out of business. We're where we are now BECAUSE we couldn't be satisfied and made it not fun to be a part of the creative process anymore. We nearly drove two SW actors to suicide, one of whom has been a trainwreck ever since because of it. I'm not saying the entire fandom is disgusting, there's a lot of great, fun, and creative fans out there. But this fandom has a dark side, and it's bigger than most other fandom's. There's criticism, then there's toxicity... and I feel like Star Wars fans display a lot more of the latter.

Personally, I think this meme has a lot of truth to it:
4c0.jpg
 
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I don't give the OT a pass for the sake of nostalgia, I give some of the effects a pass as a product of their time but I don't give a pass to any of the plot points or poor writing decisions...and there are quite a few. Some fans don't like the PT, some don't like the ST. The common denominator we share as fans is the Original trilogy of Star Wars films! Are we ALL just living on nostalgia? Is that really why Star Wars has been the most successful brand in film and merchandise? I don't think nostalgia carries it that far. Having a critical discussion about film is whining? I think people need to stop getting so butt hurt they start attacking others, we lost a couple of very long time members over a Star Wars discussion turned personal a while back (both of them were acting like ass hats).
I was talking SW with two apprentices today (both prequel kids) and we were all enjoying debating various story aspects through out the SW universe, pointing out plot holes, entertaining various what if scenarios, smiling and joking.
If a bunch of hot head construction workers can manage a civil discussion about Star Wars, we can to.;)
 
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