Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)
- Thread starter Vivek
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Dontdissthefett
Well-Known Member
Exactly. No musician is able to approach creating as a clean slate, they are always encumbered with what they’ve done and what they’ve heard before. Anyone can listen to their favorite musicians and hear the influences that molded them into the players they are, and hear those influences time and time again in everything to do. The way those influences and their own musical education and ideas come together is called a style. Everyone, including John Williams has a style and for the greats, that style is unmistakeable.
John's theme for Hook is his theme for Harry Potter is his love theme for Anakin and Padme in AOTC. I honestly am not sure to what extent he even realizes he's doing it beyond "just liking those notes in that sequence". As much as I consider the turn of the late '70s to early '80s to be his peak (Superman, ESB, Raiders), don't ever watch Empire and Raiders back to back. I love both scores, but they're almost indistinguishable at times.
He also has other brain farts. Like how on the Empire score, he was dissatisfied with Vader's Theme from the first film, so he wrote a new one. That familiar cue is titled "Darth Vader's Theme (Imperial March)". It is a Vader cue, not a generic Empire cue. So as much as I absolutely adore the mustering yard shot from the end of AOTC, including the music... the music is wrong.
On the flip side, the best case of retroactive foreshadowing I've ever seen in film was how he took the Emperor's Theme from ROTJ, shifted it into major key, bumped it up-tempo, and it's the celebration music at the end of TPM.
So, like so many things, I can see evidence both for and against in just about everything Williams does, so I can't definitively declare anything beyond useless generalities. Sometimes he re-uses riffs and sometimes he weaves deliberate links and sometimes he forgets and uses the thing in the wrong place, and the specifics of what any of those are is largely pointless to speculate on.
He also has other brain farts. Like how on the Empire score, he was dissatisfied with Vader's Theme from the first film, so he wrote a new one. That familiar cue is titled "Darth Vader's Theme (Imperial March)". It is a Vader cue, not a generic Empire cue. So as much as I absolutely adore the mustering yard shot from the end of AOTC, including the music... the music is wrong.
On the flip side, the best case of retroactive foreshadowing I've ever seen in film was how he took the Emperor's Theme from ROTJ, shifted it into major key, bumped it up-tempo, and it's the celebration music at the end of TPM.
So, like so many things, I can see evidence both for and against in just about everything Williams does, so I can't definitively declare anything beyond useless generalities. Sometimes he re-uses riffs and sometimes he weaves deliberate links and sometimes he forgets and uses the thing in the wrong place, and the specifics of what any of those are is largely pointless to speculate on.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Though that's probably George going. 'And, uh, I'd like the Imperial March playing here.'
Joek3rr
Master Member
I highly suggest you listen to The Soundtrack Show, the episdoes on Star Wars were a real eye opener. You'll see how musically John tells the story, in classic Wagner fashion.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Probably not, sorry
PantheraGem
Sr Member
Somewhat related. At least according to this, the music editor had more to do with TRoS score than Williams did.
sztriki
Sr Member
I'm not saying that's not the case, Wagnerian leitmotifs were an important driving force since Lucas and Williams first met.
What I'm saying that it's a massive stretch suggesting the Rey/Palp connection was all planned out from the beginning based on the first 3 notes of the themes.
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Maybe it's like taking a whiz. Once you start you can't stop.
The music of the sequel trilogy can best be summed up as "REMEBER STAR WAAAAAARS?!".
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Joek3rr
Master Member
I dunno. Han and Leia's love theme starts on the first two notes of Leia's theme, before going off and doing its own thing.
You're running on the false assumption that John Williams has anything to do with the planning stages of the writing of these films (which is the issue at hand.) Williams comes toward the end of production and retroactively ties musical themes together based on what the nearly completed film looks like. Writing the script for a film and scoring the music for a film are two totally separate processes. I'm not sure why you are equating the two other than to justify your love of the ST. I have no problem with your admiration of the movies but at the least if you're going to defend a creative choice be honest about why you like it rather than make illogical assumptions based on your personal preferences rather than facts.
sztriki
Sr Member
It does but surely you do see the difference. In case of ESB he saw a finished cut of th movie where Leia and Han fall in love, they have shared scenes, kiss, I love you, so he took a previous theme and modified it or expanded on it.
What you're suggesting is that he did that with Rey's theme 2 movies and 4 years ahead of anyone admittedly knowing about that relationship. I would chalk that up to coincidence, would be rather curious to hear what he would say on this.
I will admit though that I can see a tiny speck of sense in it based on the fact that TROS feels like JJ trying to bend the whole thing back to something that he had in mind, Simon Pegg did say that JJ had a different idea about Rey's lineage than what came out of TLJ but then it again speaks volumes of how the trilogy as a whole was planned out.
QUESTION RE: Palpatine and possessing Rey.
I know that this was not the intention with ROTJ, but hearing Palps in TROS tell Rey that she needs to strike him down, so that his spirit can be free to possess her body, makes me wonder about Luke's throne room confrontation in ROTJ.
Are we NOW supposed to think that was what Palps was trying to get Luke to do all along? "Strike me down with all of your hatred, and your journey toward the dark side will be complete!"
...meaning, Palps would possess Luke? It would certainly be a major retcon, but is that also canon now?!
...and what does it mean, that Vader STOPPED Luke's blade from hitting Palps? Did Vader "know" (retroactively) that Palps would simply possess Luke?!
My take on Vader in ROTJ is that he was neutered from TESB, where he was TRYING to get Luke on his side, to take on Palps. But by ROTJ, Vader has all but given up on defeating Palpatine and was resigned to fate.
Of course, it COULD be that the victor would have to understand what was about to happen, and willingly kill/be possessed by the sith spirit.
My brain hurts.
I know that this was not the intention with ROTJ, but hearing Palps in TROS tell Rey that she needs to strike him down, so that his spirit can be free to possess her body, makes me wonder about Luke's throne room confrontation in ROTJ.
Are we NOW supposed to think that was what Palps was trying to get Luke to do all along? "Strike me down with all of your hatred, and your journey toward the dark side will be complete!"
...meaning, Palps would possess Luke? It would certainly be a major retcon, but is that also canon now?!
...and what does it mean, that Vader STOPPED Luke's blade from hitting Palps? Did Vader "know" (retroactively) that Palps would simply possess Luke?!
My take on Vader in ROTJ is that he was neutered from TESB, where he was TRYING to get Luke on his side, to take on Palps. But by ROTJ, Vader has all but given up on defeating Palpatine and was resigned to fate.
Of course, it COULD be that the victor would have to understand what was about to happen, and willingly kill/be possessed by the sith spirit.
My brain hurts.
I wouldn't think too much into it, precisely for the reason that it was almost certainly not even considered by JJ whilst figuring out how to shoe horn Palpatine in.
My personal reading of that ROTJ scene is based off what came before in ESB etc. Which is that the plan was to simply get Luke to strike out in anger, kill Vader in anger, then become his new apprentice
My personal reading of that ROTJ scene is based off what came before in ESB etc. Which is that the plan was to simply get Luke to strike out in anger, kill Vader in anger, then become his new apprentice
Joek3rr
Master Member
I should clarify. I don't know if this shows Palpatine himself coming back. But I think it indicates that Rey Palpatine was a thing back during TFA. I mean they planned out parts of this, like Rey becoming a Skywalker. So while Rey's theme has a connection to the Force theme, it does not have a connection to Luke's theme. Luke's theme is the 'Main Title.'
And we can't ignore Jett Lucas comments - "Anastasia and the force awakens have strikingly similar stories."
So here's what I'm seeing. It starts on the root note, which 'A', rises to the minor 3rd, a 'C', back to the 'A', up to the 'C' again, down to the 'A', then to a 'G'. Play those notes on a piano. 'A-C-A-C-A-G', that's the Emperor's theme.
Maybe I'm just seeing this. But then again this is John Williams who wrote the celebration music at the end of The Phantom Menace as the Emperor's theme in a major key. So it's possible this is what he was doing. But maybe I'm off my rocker....
Joek3rr
Master Member
I'm going to say no. The only reason Palpatine wants to transfer his spirit into Rey is because his clone body is crap and it ain't working out for him. In ROTJ there's no reason for him to go into Luke, he's got a clone body standing by, which at that point he thinks is going to work.
sztriki
Sr Member
Fair. I still think the similarity is very superficial and is a typical minor scale melody, might be wrong. Again would be really curious what Williams would say. But if you're right that to me confirms how disjointed the trilogy is. I can't be a hypocrite, I did have the feeling after seeing TROS that JJ had his ideas about where he thought things would go, then RJ was given full control, came up with his own story, then someone disliked Colin Trevorrow's idea, brought back JJ who then tried to do U turns. So yea you may be onto something. Again if you're right it proves to me that Ep8 was a total misstep and I'm not saying that just to say "I'm right anyway".
CT1138
Sr Member
Indeed. I've noticed that I've picked up a sort of ear for picking out patterns used by certain composers. John Williams, James Horner, and Hans Zimmer being the ones I've most picked up the stylizations of. I just remember watching "Apollo 13" one afternoon when in my teens, and listening to the soundtrack in the movie, thinking to myself "This sounds like a James Horner composition." But a lot of singer/songwriters just have this sound that is uniquely their own, not just OST composers. A Bob Dylan song sounds like a Bob Dylan song, a Led Zeppelin song sounds like a Led Zeppelin song, and so forth.
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