Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[sztriki]

I just remember watching "Apollo 13" one afternoon when in my teens, and listening to the soundtrack in the movie, thinking to myself "This sounds like a James Horner composition."

He's probably the worst offender, he didn't just write similar styles he literally reused themes to the note. The many themes from Aliens were in Wolfen or Wrath of Khan, he also has a signature "menace" melody that was in almost every movie from Willow through Enemy at the Gates to Perfect Storm and it just took me out of the movie every time I heard it...
Also I just recently noticed that many John Williams theme echo Hook theme (the main theme, not Hook's motif). Home Alone, Jurassic Park, Anakin and Padme's love theme, and prob a few more I can't think of now.

 

[CT1138]

He's probably the worst offender, he didn't just write similar styles he literally reused themes to the note. The many themes from Aliens were in Wolfen or Wrath of Khan, he also has a signature "menace" melody that was in almost every movie from Willow through Enemy at the Gates to Perfect Storm and it just took me out of the movie every time I heard it...

True, I've noticed the same. You can hear excerpts of "Ripley's Rescue" from the Aliens OST in the track "Death of Quaritch" from Avatar.

 

[Solo4114]

Horner also has that kettle drum motif that pops up in both Gorky Park and 48 hrs. He just rips himself off. It's been known for ages.

I honestly love it. Palpatine is like the devil in this story. Always there. Tempting, perverting, twisting. He's like Sauron, just because he "dies" doesn't mean he's gone.

The problems with bringing Palpatine back are twofold. First, it was never lampshaded or made clear. Making Snoke into Palpatine's sock-puppet-account doesn't even seem to match up with what info we had surrounding TFA, where apparently Luke, Leia, and Han knew who he was and thought he was somehow involved in Ben's turn.

Turning Ben doesn't seem to make a ton of sense as a goal, either, unless his plan was also to have Ben be his younger apprentice while he inhabits Rey's body or whatever. None of that seems thought through. It's just beats that happen.

The other problem is that it hollows out the victory from the OT. I mean, to be fair, any story that sufficiently threatens the galaxy to the point where both the old heroes and the new ones get into the fight would have to hollow out their victory, but this goes beyond even the general failure of "Man, I thought we saved the galaxy!" and into "Haven't we LIVED this movie already?" The OT stops mattering as much in and of itself when Palpatine turns into Jason who just keeps coming back each time you kill him, and each time, he can't seem to do anything other than "I dunno...I guess I'll just, like, do that whole Empire thing again. Maybe I'll rebrand, though. Like an MCI-->Worldcom thing."

I'm not opposed to having brought back Palps, but they did it in the most wet fart kind of way. There was no build up, just ;fart noise; here you go, a real villain, happy?
I wasn't consulted, but it could have been done more artfully. But also, it didn't need to be this way. We could've just gone down a road where Ben went full darkside and Snoke was never explained and we didn't need a new/reheated villain for this movie because Driver can act like a mofo.

I do think it could've been done, or at least done a lot better. But I think having Ben -- or better still, in my view, one of the Knights of Ren -- take over and become the major villain would've been far, far better and more interesting. Snoke's backstory wouldn't matter (it's just another stupid JJ mystery box turd), and we could just move on.

My vision for a post-Ep. IX world would've been:

1. Abandoning the trilogy format, which I see as a straightjacket.

2. Ben gets ousted from the First Order and nearly killed in Ep. X, as he proves to be a weaker leader than expected. The Knights of Ren, led by maybe 3 specific knights, would be the ones to kick him out and betray him.

3. The new Rebellion would score a major victory sufficient to make it clear that the First Order was not going to take over the galaxy, and people would start to resist/rise up against it, rather than just the whole galaxy send off the All Together Now Armada just to tie things up in a bow at the end of Ep. X.

4. This would lead into Ep. XI, wherein Rey would begin rebuilding the Jedi, Ben would be isolated himself, and would eventually have a face-turn that takes a while after much soul searching, and would sacrifice himself at the end to put things right. No kiss, though. There'd be no romance between him and Rey, or if there was one, it'd be WAY more built-up over time.

5. The Knights of Ren would ultimately just boil down to one or two knights, as they'd end up killing themselves off due to infighting, or dying in fights against the new Rebellion (possibly on purpose, as the leader sends them off on too-difficult missions specifically with the idea of "If they die, I benefit. If they win, I benefit."), and this might take up to another 2-3 episodes because THE TRILOGY FORMAT IS UNNECESSARY.

It really was pointless bringing Palpatine back, just to do nothing but "explain" things that never needed explaining, whilst providing a really easily defeated bad guy for the sake of it.

Again, I have to point out that i'm a big fan of TFA/TLJ, but TROS for me exacerbated all the issues in them and just went further in highlighting the complete lack of forethought in the entire direction of the ST.

Adding Palpatine could've been done well, but he just wasn't. Around 50 in universe years later, he couldn't learn the lesson that lightning was a pretty poor attack against a saber wielding opponent, whilst simultaneously being the same super smart villain who engineered the clone wars, patiently turned Anakin away from the Jedi, and took over the galaxy to universal applomb.... That's just ridiculous, and they knew it.

I don't think they knew it. I think it never occurred to them in the first place.

JJ is a roller-coaster architect. He designs rides to be thrilling. He's very focused on the drops, or the spins, or the loops. He wants the audience to feel thrills and chills, to scream and cheer, etc. I think he goes into a story having certain moments very clear in his mind. I think that's a pretty common storytelling aspect; you go in knowing that you want to work certain scenes into the story. BUT, for JJ, the overall narrative in his story is just a means of getting you to the next thrill, and it's that next thrill he's most concerned with.

So, I think he's thinking less about "Hey, wait. Didn't this knucklehead already get killed by too much force lightning last time?" and more like "Oh man, it's gonna look so cool when she reflects the lightning into his face and it melts like the Nazis at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark! She could have this moment of doubt and then she's all the Jedi and suddenly pulls out this second sabre and blammo! Lightning in the face, baby!"

I think you can look at TROS and see a lot of bits like that. It's why the macguffins feel so pointless, too. Because they are. It's why Finn's big "Rey I need to tell you something!" moment ends up being totally forgotten. It's just meant to convey "Oh crap! They're stuck in something like quicksand and might die!" rather than having any larger meaning or import. It's just to convey "Finn cares....about something and is really worried they might die!"

It's why 3PO's memory is restored after very poignantly giving it up. It's why Chewie is saved after Rey accidentally killed him. Over and over and over, it's....just a beat. How you get there isn't important. What matters is that it happens the appropriate amount of time after the last beat, and it makes the audience feel XYZ.

To be clear, JJ is a friggin' master at this stuff. He is immensely talented at invoking emotions in his audience and hitting beats. If you're happy to strap into his rollercoaster and just go with it, he gives you a genuine thrill-ride. It's just one that, afterwards, you either barely remember, or to the extent you do, doesn't hold together as a coherent story.

It reminds me of the first Transporter film, which was a film that involved Jason Statham traveling from one thrilling fight/stunt sequence to another, and the actual travel itself doesn't really matter. You're just there for the fights and the stunts, and everything in between is just "And then he walked to the next place where he fought."

Did someone invent time travel, or am I just looking at posts from six months ago?

Sic mundus creatus est.

 

[Psab keel]

Funny how the original films were able to thrill us and managed to have some depth too in a way that profoundly impacted the world. It seems too many movies these days are all about emotional manipulation rather than being sincere. That has everything to do with having a clear theme in the writing and any truly great movie is informed by it.

In the right hands Star Wars was pure movie magic.

 

[Joek3rr]

I'm not saying that's not the case, Wagnerian leitmotifs were an important driving force since Lucas and Williams first met.
What I'm saying that it's a massive stretch suggesting the Rey/Palp connection was all planned out from the beginning based on the first 3 notes of the themes.

I came across an article today. It somewhat pertains to our discussion.

Star Wars' Kathleen Kennedy on the Long Road to Ending the Skywalkers' Story

Before Star Wars belonged to Disney, it belonged to Kathleen Kennedy. George Lucas himself picked the legendary producer to run his beloved namesake, Lucasfilm, before Mickey Mouse swooped in and bought it all up. And at that time the plan was always this: A new trilogy of films, which ends...

io9.gizmodo.com

 

[HeartBlade]

Ok why does the ST have to conclude the Skywalker saga? That felt really jarring, that episode IX was suddenly the conclusion to the 9 film series when it really felt like it’s own thing.

The fact that you sat down with 8 people to hash out an overarching story and then letting RJ do his own thing is so disrespectful to the 8 people who brainstormed the story.

If the emperor coming back was a thing from the start, it should have been foreshadowed somewhat in the actual story. Honestly, I doubt any fan had any notion that the emperor was making a comeback until the trailer for episode 9.

The ST is definately trying to be more relevant than it has any right to be.

 

[HMSwolfe]

The only thing more insulting than to continually insist that the entire OT and PT were planned out from the beginning and that it was all the work of the “mastermind” George Lucas is to continually insist that the ST had any planning whatsoever, let alone act like JJ’s terrible mystery boxes actually had answers when we all know they didn’t. What motivation would Kennedy or any other bigwig connected to the trilogy have to tell the truth about the ST, which has been regarded as an unmitigated disaster by most? Sure, they made money, but they’ve broken the brand, perhaps irreparably. I know they have for me, thanks to a joint effort by TROS and announcements about the Mandalorian season 2. Why would a money-grubbing producer with no obvious talent or skill like Kennedy come out and say, “Yeah, we decided after TLJ that fans were upset, and that we needed to get back in their good graces by indulging in what we think they want”? No! She’s doing damage control, trying to salvage the Star Wars brand so that it might be profitable in the future. That’s all that TROS is. It isn’t even a movie. It’s just damage control. A three-hour long attempt to spin the ST as though it were some grand finale to a story it was barely connected to in the first place. An attempt to profit off of plot points and emotional beats from one of the biggest blockbusters of the decade, Endgame. An attempt to give everyone what they want without doing anything original, noteworthy, worthwhile, or artistic. Anyone and everyone here can say, “But this is explained in a book/comic/show/cereal box,” or insist that “they enjoyed it, so it’s good,” or that “so-and-so says that they always planned things to be this way, and I take everything I hear from billionaires with no humanity at face value,” but it will never change the fact that TROS will not outlive this decade. It will fade away. Disney may try to force it down our throats again and again, may try to make the ST stick, but it’s nothing. No matter what anyone else here thinks Star Wars is, to me it is only three films, and nothing more. Three films made by production crews that didn’t take anything seriously, by actors that self-consciously repeated cheesy dialogue about an all-powerful force while talking to a seven-foot tall man in a dog outfit, by special-effects crews that were inventing techniques faster than they could shoot them. Three films that have stood the test of time, and shown to several generations of movie-goers the power and magic of cinema. Films far away from studio interests, guild regulations, and short-lived fads; films that have inspired thousands of people. Those films will live on—while those who defend the ST, who think Dave Filoni is George Lucas’ second coming, who are more interested in the silly mechanics and lore of a made-up universe than the actual story and storytelling involved will eventually fall silent. It does not matter how long it takes. Quality stands the test of time. Fads do not. Maybe—almost certainly—I’ll ruffle some feathers with what I’ve said. But I stand by my words. I have watched this thread go on too long, watched the same tired arguments by shills and pot-stirrers get lobbed back and forth over and over again. I frankly wish both this thread and Star Wars would end. It’s clear that no one is capable of recapturing the true essence of the series, and even less so while in the clutches of one of the most vile monopolies of this century.

 

[Solo4114]

The only thing more insulting than to continually insist that the entire OT and PT were planned out from the beginning and that it was all the work of the “mastermind” George Lucas is to continually insist that the ST had any planning whatsoever, let alone act like JJ’s terrible mystery boxes actually had answers when we all know they didn’t. What motivation would Kennedy or any other bigwig connected to the trilogy have to tell the truth about the ST, which has been regarded as an unmitigated disaster by most?

Two points. First, I absolutely agree about the criticism of JJ's mystery boxes. I think the issue is that, for a lot of people in Hollywood, that is planning. Coming up with the mystery boxes is the plan. That's what constitutes planning. "We came up with the mysteries and the ideas for really cool scenes....ok, let's start shooting!" Second, I don't think the ST is an unmitigated disaster. I think it's a flawed product. There's a lot of good stuff in it. The actors were terrific and incredibly charismatic. I wish they had a better story to work with. I love TLJ in spite of its warts. And honestly, as a simple rollercoaster ride, I really liked TFA and TROS. They're "fun" movies. They aren't "good" movies, but they're fun. The thing is I can see the strings JJ's pulling to make them fun, and that's the part that I think is crappy. And they're a mess story-wise.

Sure, they made money, but they’ve broken the brand, perhaps irreparably. I know they have for me, thanks to a joint effort by TROS and announcements about the Mandalorian season 2. Why would a money-grubbing producer with no obvious talent or skill like Kennedy come out and say, “Yeah, we decided after TLJ that fans were upset, and that we needed to get back in their good graces by indulging in what we think they want”? No! She’s doing damage control, trying to salvage the Star Wars brand so that it might be profitable in the future. That’s all that TROS is. It isn’t even a movie. It’s just damage control. A three-hour long attempt to spin the ST as though it were some grand finale to a story it was barely connected to in the first place. An attempt to profit off of plot points and emotional beats from one of the biggest blockbusters of the decade, Endgame. An attempt to give everyone what they want without doing anything original, noteworthy, worthwhile, or artistic.

I promise you, the brand isn't broken. If TPM couldn't kill the franchise, nothing can. And that's fine. That's to be expected. I mean, hell, after the prequels came out, I thought I was done with Star Wars (new Star Wars, anyway), but then I found the Clone Wars (which I really enjoy), and I've mostly liked the new movies, even though I bellyache about JJ's shoddy writing. I dug The Mandalorian Season 1. I'm excited for Season 2. I'm less enthused about The Bad Batch and I still haven't seen Resistance (which just sounded kinda...blah). But I dig what I've seen of Rebels (most of seasons 1 and 2). There's good stuff. I just treat it mostly as a buffet anymore. I find that makes me a lot less angry about the franchise than I used to be. (Not saying you're angry, mind you, just explaining my own experience.)

Anyone and everyone here can say, “But this is explained in a book/comic/show/cereal box,” or insist that “they enjoyed it, so it’s good,” or that “so-and-so says that they always planned things to be this way, and I take everything I hear from billionaires with no humanity at face value,” but it will never change the fact that TROS will not outlive this decade. It will fade away. Disney may try to force it down our throats again and again, may try to make the ST stick, but it’s nothing. No matter what anyone else here thinks Star Wars is, to me it is only three films, and nothing more. Three films made by production crews that didn’t take anything seriously, by actors that self-consciously repeated cheesy dialogue about an all-powerful force while talking to a seven-foot tall man in a dog outfit, by special-effects crews that were inventing techniques faster than they could shoot them. Three films that have stood the test of time, and shown to several generations of movie-goers the power and magic of cinema. Films far away from studio interests, guild regulations, and short-lived fads; films that have inspired thousands of people. Those films will live on—while those who defend the ST, who think Dave Filoni is George Lucas’ second coming, who are more interested in the silly mechanics and lore of a made-up universe than the actual story and storytelling involved will eventually fall silent. It does not matter how long it takes. Quality stands the test of time. Fads do not. Maybe—almost certainly—I’ll ruffle some feathers with what I’ve said. But I stand by my words. I have watched this thread go on too long, watched the same tired arguments by shills and pot-stirrers get lobbed back and forth over and over again. I frankly wish both this thread and Star Wars would end. It’s clear that no one is capable of recapturing the true essence of the series, and even less so while in the clutches of one of the most vile monopolies of this century.

I bolded that last part because I want to address it specifically in response to your overall point.

You're absolutely right. No one is capable of recapturing the vibe of the original films, the spirit of them. They were a product of their time, and are deeply rooted in a number of different cultural factors from that era and we just....aren't there anymore. Culture itself functions differently (like, waaaaaay, way differently) now than it did from 1977-1983. We consume it and interact with it differently. It's created differently by people with different ideals, upbringings, and experiences. Everything that went into creating the OT, and especially the first two films, is just...different. And gone.

The past is a foreign country to which we cannot return. And I, for one, no longer care to try. Watching the original Star Wars is great. I love doing it. I love sharing it with my kid. But it's also kinda like home movies, ya know? Visions of a bygone age, fondly remembered.

After the PT came out, I was incredibly angry at how the series had so shifted. ROTS was...ok...but handled poorly pacing-wise (I maintain this is because they wasted an entire film on "Jim Henson's Anakin Babies"). The entire franchise seemed to be all about the new stuff, and the old stuff I loved was being shoved aside to make way for new crap I didn't care about and actively disliked. Over time, though, my frustration about that faded and got to a point where I could appreciate certain aspects of the newer stuff. Now, my attitude is basically that Star Wars is....whatever I choose it to be from the available stuff that's out there. I take what I want, and I leave the rest, and there's enough that I enjoy that, you know, I'm good. I have enough Star Wars in my life to keep me happy, and I've stopped holding it to a standard that it literally cannot achieve. I hope you can find a similar place (or maybe you're already there, in which case, awesome!).

 

[Joek3rr]

The only thing more insulting than to continually insist that the entire OT and PT were planned out from the beginning and that it was all the work of the “mastermind” George Lucas is to continually insist that the ST had any planning whatsoever, let alone act like JJ’s terrible mystery boxes actually had answers when we all know they didn’t. What motivation would Kennedy or any other bigwig connected to the trilogy have to tell the truth about the ST, which has been regarded as an unmitigated disaster by most? Sure, they made money, but they’ve broken the brand, perhaps irreparably. I know they have for me, thanks to a joint effort by TROS and announcements about the Mandalorian season 2. Why would a money-grubbing producer with no obvious talent or skill like Kennedy come out and say, “Yeah, we decided after TLJ that fans were upset, and that we needed to get back in their good graces by indulging in what we think they want”? No! She’s doing damage control, trying to salvage the Star Wars brand so that it might be profitable in the future. That’s all that TROS is. It isn’t even a movie. It’s just damage control. A three-hour long attempt to spin the ST as though it were some grand finale to a story it was barely connected to in the first place. An attempt to profit off of plot points and emotional beats from one of the biggest blockbusters of the decade, Endgame. An attempt to give everyone what they want without doing anything original, noteworthy, worthwhile, or artistic. Anyone and everyone here can say, “But this is explained in a book/comic/show/cereal box,” or insist that “they enjoyed it, so it’s good,” or that “so-and-so says that they always planned things to be this way, and I take everything I hear from billionaires with no humanity at face value,” but it will never change the fact that TROS will not outlive this decade. It will fade away. Disney may try to force it down our throats again and again, may try to make the ST stick, but it’s nothing. No matter what anyone else here thinks Star Wars is, to me it is only three films, and nothing more. Three films made by production crews that didn’t take anything seriously, by actors that self-consciously repeated cheesy dialogue about an all-powerful force while talking to a seven-foot tall man in a dog outfit, by special-effects crews that were inventing techniques faster than they could shoot them. Three films that have stood the test of time, and shown to several generations of movie-goers the power and magic of cinema. Films far away from studio interests, guild regulations, and short-lived fads; films that have inspired thousands of people. Those films will live on—while those who defend the ST, who think Dave Filoni is George Lucas’ second coming, who are more interested in the silly mechanics and lore of a made-up universe than the actual story and storytelling involved will eventually fall silent. It does not matter how long it takes. Quality stands the test of time. Fads do not. Maybe—almost certainly—I’ll ruffle some feathers with what I’ve said. But I stand by my words. I have watched this thread go on too long, watched the same tired arguments by shills and pot-stirrers get lobbed back and forth over and over again. I frankly wish both this thread and Star Wars would end. It’s clear that no one is capable of recapturing the true essence of the series, and even less so while in the clutches of one of the most vile monopolies of this century.

That really just shows a generational shift. I may have been introduced to Star Wars with the OT, and I now consider it to be my favorite of the three trilogies. But no mistake, I'm a late 90's early 2000's kid, that thought the PT was the best thing next to sliced bread.

 

[drcraig13]

I'm a late 90's early 2000's kid, that thought the PT was the best thing next to sliced bread.

Get off my lawn.

 

[sztriki]

All this talk made me rewatch the Snoke scenes in TLJ. Andy Serkis is bloody killing it, the little faces he makes, the way he carries his voice, body language and the quality of the sfx are just great. I also give credit to direction. I wish he was kept and developed a bit more instead of getting back Palp, and I don't mind that he was just Snoke and not some secret something from a previous movie. I think there was more potential than just saying aaa he doesn't matter cuz Palpatine.

 

[BTTUK]

Never takes long for someone to (incorrectly) use words like shills, to describe someone, who simply types/voices a differing opinion.

 

[cboath]

Ok why does the ST have to conclude the Skywalker saga? That felt really jarring, that episode IX was suddenly the conclusion to the 9 film series when it really felt like it’s own thing.

The fact that you sat down with 8 people to hash out an overarching story and then letting RJ do his own thing is so disrespectful to the 8 people who brainstormed the story.

If the emperor coming back was a thing from the start, it should have been foreshadowed somewhat in the actual story. Honestly, I doubt any fan had any notion that the emperor was making a comeback until the trailer for episode 9.

The ST is definately trying to be more relevant than it has any right to be.

Making it the end of the skywalker saga is very jarring because it's picking up after a 30 year hiatus more or less, and you barely see anything of what 'skywalker' was to the audience, that being Luke. Technically Ben's a skywalker but no one thinks of him in that vein really, they think of him as Kylo. We never see Ben as Ben. Not really. There's nothing tying the audience to him being a skywalker you think of or care about as one. There's no audience attachment in that respect really, so Luke getting 10-15 minutes of screen time in the whole trilogy makes for a rather abrupt end to what people consider the skyalker saga, namely Luke.

And to be picky, they didn't actually end the saga. Rey takes the name skywalker which will project the name for a good while to come, especially if she ever has kids of her own. It's the same basic premise as an adopted child. Hard to 'end the saga' if there's a 10-12 with her in it as Rey Skywalker...

Truthfully, this shouldn't have been called 7-9, just a new 1-3, or an unnumbered trilogy. There was no reason to 'end the saga' short of getting people to accept no more original cast members - which was clearly the plan as they were all slated to get killed throughout this thing.

 

[Joek3rr]

Making it the end of the skywalker saga is very jarring because it's picking up after a 30 year hiatus more or less, and you barely see anything of what 'skywalker' was to the audience, that being Luke. Technically Ben's a skywalker but no one thinks of him in that vein really, they think of him as Kylo. We never see Ben as Ben. Not really. There's nothing tying the audience to him being a skywalker you think of or care about as one. There's no audience attachment in that respect really, so Luke getting 10-15 minutes of screen time in the whole trilogy makes for a rather abrupt end to what people consider the skyalker saga, namely Luke.

And to be picky, they didn't actually end the saga. Rey takes the name skywalker which will project the name for a good while to come, especially if she ever has kids of her own. It's the same basic premise as an adopted child. Hard to 'end the saga' if there's a 10-12 with her in it as Rey Skywalker...

Truthfully, this shouldn't have been called 7-9, just a new 1-3, or an unnumbered trilogy. There was no reason to 'end the saga' short of getting people to accept no more original cast members - which was clearly the plan as they were all slated to get killed throughout this thing.

Leia is a Skywalker.

That's one of the things I love about the ST. They tried to make good on the "there is another." Of course they were being hampered by age, and Carrie's untimely passing. But they tried their darndest, and I love it.

 

[HeartBlade]

Making it the end of the skywalker saga is very jarring because it's picking up after a 30 year hiatus more or less, and you barely see anything of what 'skywalker' was to the audience, that being Luke. Technically Ben's a skywalker but no one thinks of him in that vein really, they think of him as Kylo. We never see Ben as Ben. Not really. There's nothing tying the audience to him being a skywalker you think of or care about as one. There's no audience attachment in that respect really, so Luke getting 10-15 minutes of screen time in the whole trilogy makes for a rather abrupt end to what people consider the skyalker saga, namely Luke.

And to be picky, they didn't actually end the saga. Rey takes the name skywalker which will project the name for a good while to come, especially if she ever has kids of her own. It's the same basic premise as an adopted child. Hard to 'end the saga' if there's a 10-12 with her in it as Rey Skywalker...

Truthfully, this shouldn't have been called 7-9, just a new 1-3, or an unnumbered trilogy. There was no reason to 'end the saga' short of getting people to accept no more original cast members - which was clearly the plan as they were all slated to get killed throughout this thing.

Yes from a certain point of view, Skywalker lives but Rey is literally Skywalker in name only.

Now if it was just a name, it’s fine, but Skywalker is more than just a name. Anakin is a ******-like figure (born with no father) and is gifted genetically with an unrivaled gift (More midiclorians than any other living thing), thus being uniquely positioned as the one who will bring balance to the force.

even though Anakin fails, there is still hope because that same lineage is passed down to his 2 children in Luke and Leia. They also have Anakin’s genetics and thus, his potential. In sense, it’s the same as royal blood. It’s why Obi Wan dedicated his life to protect Luke instead of searching for another “one”, why Yoda said there is still another regarding Leia even though she had no training, why they were “a new hope”

Now Rey is completely unrelated to the Skywalkers in any shape or form. On the contrary, she is a Palpatine who, while also insanely talented in the force, is still nowhere near as powerful as Anakin (I think Lucas said before that fully realized Anakin would have been twice as strong as Palpatine).

Essentially, just as an adopted child into the royal family can’t take the throne and become king, Rey can’t be a “Skywalker” because she doesn’t have the blood lineage and Rey can never be since she doesn’t have the blood of Skywalker running through her veins.

With Ben dead along with Leia and Luke, unless Luke has a secret love child, the Skywalker lineage has been eradicated.

 

[cboath]

Leia is a Skywalker.

That's one of the things I love about the ST. They tried to make good on the "there is another." Of course they were being hampered by age, and Carrie's untimely passing. But they tried their darndest, and I love it.

I didn't say she wasn't, not sure i even mentioned her. But, you say Leia, Skywalker isn't one of the first 10 things that comes to mind. In the OT, we knew leia was a skywalker for the last 20 minutes out of 7 hours. It's not an aspect of her that resonates with people from what they've seen. That's very different if you read all the books and/or the lead up books to E7. But therein lies a problem with the ST. In order to 'get' everything they did you had to read 3-4 books minimum. You can't do that and be successful.

It's not to say she's not a skywalker, of course she is. It's just no one really consciously thinks of her that way. THE skywalker was luke, then anakin. You can argue the nits, i suppose, on are you part of the families ongong story if you were never a part of the family? Are you part of your father's family if you don't meet him until you're 20+, and at that, he's cutting your hand off and you're willing to die as opposed to go off with him?

Frankly, with the fact we saw (sort of) Leia spending a year or so training Rey, There was more 'family activity' between Rey/Leia than there was between Leia/Vader/Anakin or even Luke/Vader/Anakin. Luke and Leia didn't meet til ostensibly their 20's. That's not really a family saga.

You go from the end of ROTJ learning there IS a family, to TFA where you lose a family member (albeit an inlaw), and then lose the next two in the next two flicks. You never get any family sense from them because it goes from 'hey we're related' immediately onscreen to 'luke's vanished'. The most family sense in the ST is that was a family that broke up.

In the end, if you want to end a family saga, there should be a family story to end. There wasn't. You missing absolutely NOTHING from the ST if you push it out 100 years, kylo is the kid of two other people and his teacher is some one we never heard of before. Nothing. the name/family of Skywalker brought nothing to the storyline. If you're ending that supposed storyline, the whole thing needs to have a lot more to do with the family aspect and it really didn't. Everything family related, Luke's failure, Ben's fall, etc, all happened BEFORE the ST and we pick up once it's done.

And finally, and i really say this all from the point of debate, i'm not sure why blood has anything to do with it. It's the name that would keep the iconology, myth, and/or story alive. The point of that ending was that Luke/Leia would always be with Rey in some way. By taking the name she's trying to pass forward what they brought her, which in essence keeps the name/saga alive. From a certain point of view, anyhow. The story doesn't end of someone can keep it alive.

 

[HeartBlade]

I didn't say she wasn't, not sure i even mentioned her. But, you say Leia, Skywalker isn't one of the first 10 things that comes to mind. In the OT, we knew leia was a skywalker for the last 20 minutes out of 7 hours. It's not an aspect of her that resonates with people from what they've seen. That's very different if you read all the books and/or the lead up books to E7. But therein lies a problem with the ST. In order to 'get' everything they did you had to read 3-4 books minimum. You can't do that and be successful.

It's not to say she's not a skywalker, of course she is. It's just no one really consciously thinks of her that way. THE skywalker was luke, then anakin. You can argue the nits, i suppose, on are you part of the families ongong story if you were never a part of the family? Are you part of your father's family if you don't meet him until you're 20+, and at that, he's cutting your hand off and you're willing to die as opposed to go off with him?

Frankly, with the fact we saw (sort of) Leia spending a year or so training Rey, There was more 'family activity' between Rey/Leia than there was between Leia/Vader/Anakin or even Luke/Vader/Anakin. Luke and Leia didn't meet til ostensibly their 20's. That's not really a family saga.

You go from the end of ROTJ learning there IS a family, to TFA where you lose a family member (albeit an inlaw), and then lose the next two in the next two flicks. You never get any family sense from them because it goes from 'hey we're related' immediately onscreen to 'luke's vanished'. The most family sense in the ST is that was a family that broke up.

In the end, if you want to end a family saga, there should be a family story to end. There wasn't. You missing absolutely NOTHING from the ST if you push it out 100 years, kylo is the kid of two other people and his teacher is some one we never heard of before. Nothing. the name/family of Skywalker brought nothing to the storyline. If you're ending that supposed storyline, the whole thing needs to have a lot more to do with the family aspect and it really didn't. Everything family related, Luke's failure, Ben's fall, etc, all happened BEFORE the ST and we pick up once it's done.

And finally, and i really say this all from the point of debate, i'm not sure why blood has anything to do with it. It's the name that would keep the iconology, myth, and/or story alive. The point of that ending was that Luke/Leia would always be with Rey in some way. By taking the name she's trying to pass forward what they brought her, which in essence keeps the name/saga alive. From a certain point of view, anyhow. The story doesn't end of someone can keep it alive.

it’s a family drama in a sense that the story revolves around the Skywalkers. The Skywalkers are the “main characters” of the story. It’s not a traditional the family sits down to have dinner, more like a Mexican soap drama where Juan was actually Demitri’s evil twin.

Regarding the blood, it’s honestly pretty central to the Star Wars mythos. OT establishes being a Jedi as rare, thus why Luke is the to become a Jedi and not someone more capable like Wedge or Han Solo. There is an innate talent that is needed to be a jedi. As much as it is a surprise that Darth Vader is Luke’s father, it makes sense because it shows where Luke got his force talent from. The fact that Leia also possesses the talent to be a Jedi and the reveal that she is Luke’s sister thus implies that talent in the force can be “passed” on from parent to child.

the PT doubles down on this by making Anakin the One. The PT shows that there were many Jedi and so the audience could ask why Luke? Why not just find another force-sensitive kid, train him non-stop, and have him take on Vader? The PT shows that Anakin is the one and is thus born with an unprecedented midicolorian amount. As much as I hate the midis, it shows that Anakin has an unrivaled innate potential. Just like you can’t teach a basketball player to be tall, you can’t teach force sensitivity.

Thus, it makes sense why Luke and Leia were the galaxy’s last hope. Only they have the same high midi count from being the child of Skywalker and thus only they have enough innate potential to possibly rival and defeat Vader. That is why the “Skywalker” lineage/blood matters. That’s why we know off the bat that Ben/Kylo Ren is a huge threat, because the Skywalker blood runs through his veins and thus the power that comes from being a Skywalker.

if Skywalker were just a name, then Rey skywalker could continue the story no problem. But the PT introduced midicolorians and Rey‘s blood doesn’t meet the hype since she is in name only. And now that Luke is dead with no kids, Leia is dead with only Ben, and Ben is dead with no kids, the blood died has died out along with its potential.

Now Disney could remedy this in one of 2 ways. Drop the one concept entirely and have the story follow more mediocre Jedi as they struggle through solving the galaxy’s problems. Or have the birth of a “new” one which would just repeat the same story. The first removes the “power fantasy”of seeing the new heights the force can or should reach while the second will never succeed imo (aka see Terminator Dark Fate and killing off John Connor for Dani Ramos).

 

[Halliwax]

amazed this is still going, you guys are die hards i tell ya.

this is a positive post, dont take this the wrong way

 

[JediMichael]

amazed this is still going, you guys are die hards i tell ya.

this is a positive post, dont take this the wrong way

Ha, I'm sure enough people could come up with enough topics and ideas for these 9 movies to go on another 100+ years. That is if a virus/racist/offended person hasn't completely destroyed the whole human race altogether......right?

 

[cboath]

meh, in the end, saying it's end of the skywalker saga is just a big retcon.

The OT was about Luke, period. Contrary to GL's retcon when he came up with the prequels, it was never the story of vader. He'd worked a little backstory to get to where he was, but the OT was Luke's story. The PT was essentially Anakin's story, but the ST was Rey's story. If i bill a trilogy as the end of the skywalker saga, i'd expect to focus on the skywalker family, not the granddaughter of the emperor...