Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[Joek3rr]

meh, in the end, saying it's end of the skywalker saga is just a big retcon.

The OT was about Luke, period. Contrary to GL's retcon when he came up with the prequels, it was never the story of vader. He'd worked a little backstory to get to where he was, but the OT was Luke's story. The PT was essentially Anakin's story, but the ST was Rey's story. If i bill a trilogy as the end of the skywalker saga, i'd expect to focus on the skywalker family, not the granddaughter of the emperor...

Star Wars has evolved and changed greatly over the years. There have been these shifts in the storytelling. Let me see if I can explain my thinking.

Star Wars began as the adventures of Luke Skywalker and company. Luke was the focus, I mean the 'Main Title' is Luke's theme. Luke was meant to be the main character of the whole saga. But everything changes with 'Empire.' There are two major shifts. First is making the Emperor a Force user. Originally he wasn't, this changes the story in a big way, though it doesn't become apparent until the Prequels. But the biggest change is the moment that Anakin and Vader become the same character. At that moment Star Wars is no longer just the Flash Gorden-esque adventures of Luke Skywalker and company. It becomes a dramatic story about the Skywalkers, and the repercussions their actions have on the galaxy. "Return' doubles down on that notion by making Leia a member of that family.

Then came the Prequels. They shifted the story again. First was its focus on the man who would become the Emperor, Palpatine. Making the story about him just as much as it is about the Skywalkers. And secondly was it making Anakin a prophesied chosen one. This pulls the focus completely off of Luke and makes Anakin the central character of the saga. Now Luke's actions are merely fulfilling the prophecy about Anakin. Making Luke play second fiddle, even in his trilogy.

But then came the infamous Sequels. They attempt to right the wrongs done to Luke. Not by pulling the focus from Anakin, but sharing the focus, so to speak. It shows that it's the entire family that is really the "chosen ones." It's not just Anakin that brings balance, but it's the family, the Skywalker family that brings balance. The whole family gets the focus, not just Anakin, or Luke. But Leia and Ben, and yes, even Rey. It also continues the idea that story is also about Palpatine, just as much as it is about the Skywalkers.

 

[Psab keel]

But the Skywalker family doesn't bring balance in the ST. The Palpatine's do. All the Skywalkers do in this trilogy is mess things up, allowing Palpatine's return and then get killed off.

They should just call the ST the Rise of the Palpatines. Considering all the Skywalkers are dead by the end of this trilogy and their sacrifices have been rendered meaningless, I'd say it's an incorrect assumption to call this is the end of the Skywalker saga other than to kill them off one by one.

The end of the Skywalker Saga was Return of the Jedi. This new trilogy has more to do with the Palpatine bloodline than anything else.

 

[Joek3rr]

But the Skywalker family doesn't bring balance in the ST. The Palpatine's do. All the Skywalkers do in this trilogy is mess things up, allowing Palpatine's return and then get killed off.

They should just call the ST the Rise of the Palpatines. Considering all the Skywalkers are dead by the end of this trilogy and their sacrifices have been rendered meaningless, I'd say it's an incorrect assumption to call this is the end of the Skywalker saga other than to kill them off one by one.

The end of the Skywalker Saga was Return of the Jedi. This new trilogy has more to do with the Palpatine bloodline than anything else.

But they do. Rey is a Skywalker. Chosen by the Force to be a Skywalker no less. Brought back from the dead by the last Skywalker. And her mentors, both of them. Luke briefly, and Leia, are both Skywalkers. So the Skywalker family still brings balance.

 

[Psab keel]

Skywalker in name only. Nothing more.

Rey's accomplishments are all her own and the Skywalkers can't be credited with them. In the same way Rey can't take credit for any of the Skywalker's accomplishments. If anything, Rey taking the name not only undermines the victories of the Skywalker's but also diminishes Rey's agency by not allowing her to reclaim the name Palpatine and transform it from a symbol of evil to a symbol of light having defeated her grandfather.

I'm not convinced there was an overall plan, despite your sincere insistence to the contrary. The only thing I am convinced of is that you are willing to justify any choice (or excuse) they make and if that's what gives you enjoyment more power to you. I'm one of many who feels otherwise.

 

[cboath]

But they do. Rey is a Skywalker. Chosen by the Force to be a Skywalker no less. Brought back from the dead by the last Skywalker. And her mentors, both of them. Luke briefly, and Leia, are both Skywalkers. So the Skywalker family still brings balance.

Ok, right there. It doesn't work both ways.

If the force chooses Rey to be Skywalker, She's a Skywalker and the Skywalker saga does not end.

If she's not a skywalker, the saga ends, but the ST was as noted about the rise of the palpatines.

 

[cboath]

Skywalker in name only. Nothing more.

Rey's accomplishments are all her own and the Skywalkers can't be credited with them. In the same way Rey can't take credit for any of the Skywalker's accomplishments. If anything, Rey taking the name not only undermines the victories of the Skywalker's but also diminishes Rey's agency by not allowing her to reclaim the name Palpatine and transform it from a symbol of evil to a symbol of light having defeated her grandfather.

I'm not convinced there was an overall plan, despite your sincere insistence to the contrary. The only thing I am convinced of is that you are willing to justify any choice (or excuse) they make and if that's what gives you enjoyment more power to you. I'm one of many who feels otherwise.

Well, it's not like you see people name Hitler trying to reclaim that name....I'd say the atrocities of the empire are at least in the same ballpart as tthat of the nazi's...

Does Leia further the legacy (i.e. saga) of the Organa's?

Does it actually matter? All this comes from the bs tagline of billing the trilogy as the end of the skywalker saga, which it doesn't really as this trilogy was the rise of rey and her defeating evil. Pretty much like the OT was the story of Luke's rise and his defeat of evil.

 

[Joek3rr]

Skywalker in name only. Nothing more.

Rey's accomplishments are all her own and the Skywalkers can't be credited with them. In the same way Rey can't take credit for any of the Skywalker's accomplishments. If anything, Rey taking the name not only undermines the victories of the Skywalker's but also diminishes Rey's agency by not allowing her to reclaim the name Palpatine and transform it from a symbol of evil to a symbol of light having defeated her grandfather.

I'm not convinced there was an overall plan, despite your sincere insistence to the contrary. The only thing I am convinced of is that you are willing to justify any choice (or excuse) they make and if that's what gives you enjoyment more power to you. I'm one of many who feels otherwise.

I mean that’s kinda their point.

 

[Joek3rr]

Ok, right there. It doesn't work both ways.

If the force chooses Rey to be Skywalker, She's a Skywalker and the Skywalker saga does not end.

If she's not a skywalker, the saga ends, but the ST was as noted about the rise of the palpatines.

But again thats kinda the point of it all. The Skywalker Saga (ie that bloodline from Shmi to Ben) is ended. Rey is not of that bloodline. She's a new Skywalker.

 

[Psab keel]

In name only.

 

[Paul Andrew]

Given the fantastic nature of Anakin's birth the difference is academic. It's not like having the last name Skywalker made Shmi special.

 

[HeartBlade]

Given the fantastic nature of Anakin's birth the difference is academic. It's not like having the last name Skywalker made Shmi special.

Honestly this. Rey is Skywalker in name only and makes a huge difference. Skywalker post-Anakin is no longer a last name like Jones or Jinn. It’s a marker that indicates that the person is someone with the lineage of the one and thus possesses their unrivaled force potential.

It’s why the Skywalker name carries so much weight to people in the know. Anakin was the one and had unrivaled force potential because of it. Being of his lineage, Luke, Leia, and Ben also have that incredible potential. Han is technically also part of the “Skywalker family” but no one expects him to be a super Jedi because he doesn’t share the lineage.

Same with Rey. She does have a strong lineage (the Palpatines) but Sheev pales in comparison to Anakin in terms of potential (Anakin at full potential would be twice as strong as Sheev).

Disney f’ed up the trilogy by killing off Ben. It honestly would have been better if Rey died, ending the Palpatine line and having Ben go on a redemption quest, learning how the next line of Jedi should be as one who has experience in both the light and dark sides of the force. Rey wasn’t chosen to become a Skywalker, he has no relationship apart from being a student (and arguably learnt little based on the comics). Rey literally is Skywalker in name only.

 

[HeartBlade]

I really don’t get why this is hard to understand. Even RoS delves into this concept with Rey fearing that she will fall to the dark side because she is a Palpatine. Nevermind the fact that she can shoot force lightning (again without training unless Leia has some questionable teaching methods). The dark side and Sheev’s power is in her blood.

I do think it was a huge missed opportunity for Ben to not be the last Skywalker. He would have done what both Luke and Anakin couldn’t, become a master of both the light and dark side. Anakin fell to the dark and Luke never ventured to go there. It’s also implied in PT that once you go dark, you don’t come back which is why Yoda and Obi wan never dreamed that Vader could be redeemed.

Ben could have been the first one “in the movies at least” who would have knowledge of both the light side and dark side from actual experience and possibly control over both. As a Skywalker with that knowledge, he may learn how to bring true balance to the force from that knowledge and then establish a new Jedi order based on those insights, one where the force is for everyone as Luke wanted.

 

[Paul Andrew]

Honestly this. Rey is Skywalker in name only and makes a huge difference. Skywalker post-Anakin is no longer a last name like Jones or Jinn. It’s a marker that indicates that the person is someone with the lineage of the one and thus possesses their unrivaled force potential.

It’s why the Skywalker name carries so much weight to people in the know. Anakin was the one and had unrivaled force potential because of it. Being of his lineage, Luke, Leia, and Ben also have that incredible potential. Han is technically also part of the “Skywalker family” but no one expects him to be a super Jedi because he doesn’t share the lineage.

Same with Rey. She does have a strong lineage (the Palpatines) but Sheev pales in comparison to Anakin in terms of potential (Anakin at full potential would be twice as strong as Sheev).

Disney f’ed up the trilogy by killing off Ben. It honestly would have been better if Rey died, ending the Palpatine line and having Ben go on a redemption quest, learning how the next line of Jedi should be as one who has experience in both the light and dark sides of the force. Rey wasn’t chosen to become a Skywalker, he has no relationship apart from being a student (and arguably learnt little based on the comics). Rey literally is Skywalker in name only.

That was not my point at all. The name is just a name. It doesn't signify anything more than a familial tie, and Rey taking the name Skywalker at the end of TRoS as a way of severing her remaining tie to the emperor and dedicating herself to the light is perfectly fine.
Also, I don't know where you get this Anakin would be twice as strong as Sheev stuff. Strength in the force isn't really ever quantified, except in midichlorian levels, and that doesn't ever get translated into practical terms like the number of xwings you can unswamp. It's like saying the Hulk is twice as strong as Superman, or my dad can beat up your dad. Like, I guess maybe but it also doesn't matter because there's no strongman carnival game to measure force strength.

 

[Psab keel]

Well considering there was never any danger of her turning to the dark side, I'd argue that it's a moot point.

 

[HeartBlade]

That was not my point at all. The name is just a name. It doesn't signify anything more than a familial tie, and Rey taking the name Skywalker at the end of TRoS as a way of severing her remaining tie to the emperor and dedicating herself to the light is perfectly fine.
Also, I don't know where you get this Anakin would be twice as strong as Sheev stuff. Strength in the force isn't really ever quantified, except in midichlorian levels, and that doesn't ever get translated into practical terms like the number of xwings you can unswamp. It's like saying the Hulk is twice as strong as Superman, or my dad can beat up your dad. Like, I guess maybe but it also doesn't matter because there's no strongman carnival game to measure force strength.

Ok. Sorry for misunderstanding your previous point. And I also completely disagree with you then.

Anakin’s birth is almost divine as stated by Lucas himself.

“An interesting character tidbit Lucas sneaked into The Phantom Menace is the possibility that Anakin's absent father is divine, an idea he got not from the New Testament but from the many further examples cited by Campbell in a chapter called "Folk Stories of Virgin Motherhood...Qui-Gon's investigation suggests that the Force itself is Anakin's father. It did the deed not in the form of invisible airborne sperm, exactly, but as something Lucas calls "mitichlorians." In other words, Darth Vader is a demigod”

Anakin is a demigod like-figure. We also know that midiclorians can be passed down through blood and thus Anakin’s progeny also possess demigod-like force potential (maybe not as much as Anakin but still powerful. This I’m unsure).

From the creator’s mouth about how strong Anakin could have been.

“Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful," he says. "But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor.”

Anakin could have been 2 times as strong as Palpatine but due to being burned and becoming more machine than man, as Vader he only reached 40% of his potential. Also thus why Palpatine disliked Vader and wanted to replace him with Luke.

Source: vanity Fair

STAR WARS: THE LAST BATTLE | Vanity Fair

Opening May 19, Star Wars: Episode III— Revenge of the Sith is set on eight different planets, with an entire army of Wookiees and what promises to be the ultimate lightsaber duel. ANNIE LEIBOVITZ shoots the movie's behind-the-scenes heroes while JIM WINDOLF gets the inside scoop from director...

archive.vanityfair.com

Saying Skywalker is just a name is akin to saying ***** ****** is just a name. I know ***** didn’t have any children contrary to what the Da Vinci code says but if he did, his son John ****** would be much more likely to be godly than John Smith and John Smith taking the ****** name doesn’t make him godly.

 

[Joek3rr]

Ok. Sorry for misunderstanding your previous point. And I also completely disagree with you then.

Anakin’s birth is almost divine as stated by Lucas himself.

“An interesting character tidbit Lucas sneaked into The Phantom Menace is the possibility that Anakin's absent father is divine, an idea he got not from the New Testament but from the many further examples cited by Campbell in a chapter called "Folk Stories of Virgin Motherhood...Qui-Gon's investigation suggests that the Force itself is Anakin's father. It did the deed not in the form of invisible airborne sperm, exactly, but as something Lucas calls "mitichlorians." In other words, Darth Vader is a demigod”

Anakin is a demigod like-figure. We also know that midiclorians can be passed down through blood and thus Anakin’s progeny also possess demigod-like force potential (maybe not as much as Anakin but still powerful. This I’m unsure).

From the creator’s mouth about how strong Anakin could have been.

“Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful," he says. "But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor.”

Anakin could have been 2 times as strong as Palpatine but due to being burned and becoming more machine than man, as Vader he only reached 40% of his potential. Also thus why Palpatine disliked Vader and wanted to replace him with Luke.

Source: vanity Fair

STAR WARS: THE LAST BATTLE | Vanity Fair

Opening May 19, Star Wars: Episode III— Revenge of the Sith is set on eight different planets, with an entire army of Wookiees and what promises to be the ultimate lightsaber duel. ANNIE LEIBOVITZ shoots the movie's behind-the-scenes heroes while JIM WINDOLF gets the inside scoop from director...

archive.vanityfair.com

Saying Skywalker is just a name is akin to saying ***** ****** is just a name. I know ***** didn’t have any children contrary to what the Da Vinci code says but if he did, his son John ****** would be much more likely to be godly than John Smith and John Smith taking the ****** name doesn’t make him godly.

****** isn't a last name. ****** means "the anointed one" or "the chosen one." So it's a title which comes from the Greek word χριστός (chrīstós). They didn't have last names back then. So ***** was identified from the other men with the name *****, as ***** of Nazareth, which was his home town.

 

[Joek3rr]

I have to say. If they continue the story forward I'd love to see that the Skywalker family is made up entirely of orphans, like Rey.

 

[HeartBlade]

****** isn't a last name. ****** means "the anointed one" or "the chosen one." So it's a title which comes from the Greek word χριστός (chrīstós). They didn't have last names back then. So ***** was identified from the other men with the name *****, as ***** of Nazareth, which was his home town.

yeah thanks for missing the point entirely. If this is a troll attempt, good job.

***** didn’t have a last name or children. But if he did, they would likely also be divine beings because you know, they are the child of the son of God. But no one should expect Mary to also be a demigod even if she married ***** because she doesn’t have his divine bloodline in her veins.

Otherwise, you can essentially say that all force users are stupid and incompetent. Vader is just one force user so why bother training Luke to be a Jedi despite him being too old? Why not find another force sensitive kid and train him. Since all force users are the same, broom kid can totally defeat Vader and Palpatine on his own right? After all, they are all force users.

 

[cboath]

Honestly this. Rey is Skywalker in name only and makes a huge difference. Skywalker post-Anakin is no longer a last name like Jones or Jinn. It’s a marker that indicates that the person is someone with the lineage of the one and thus possesses their unrivaled force potential.

It’s why the Skywalker name carries so much weight to people in the know. Anakin was the one and had unrivaled force potential because of it. Being of his lineage, Luke, Leia, and Ben also have that incredible potential. Han is technically also part of the “Skywalker family” but no one expects him to be a super Jedi because he doesn’t share the lineage.

Same with Rey. She does have a strong lineage (the Palpatines) but Sheev pales in comparison to Anakin in terms of potential (Anakin at full potential would be twice as strong as Sheev).

Disney f’ed up the trilogy by killing off Ben. It honestly would have been better if Rey died, ending the Palpatine line and having Ben go on a redemption quest, learning how the next line of Jedi should be as one who has experience in both the light and dark sides of the force. Rey wasn’t chosen to become a Skywalker, he has no relationship apart from being a student (and arguably learnt little based on the comics). Rey literally is Skywalker in name only.

But does it?

No one heard Luke's name in the OT and said 'Holy @#$%? Skywalker? Are you related to Anakin??' Hell, not even Leia, who'd been told the stories of obi wan and the clone wars, etc, and knew to contact Obi Wan to get the whole thing started.

As far as George's thougths on what Anakin could have been. It wasn't oncreen or in the books, so it's not really relevant. And besides, since NO ONE ever saw a power of that level due to him getting burned up, it's completely irrelevant. If Anakin Skywalker was such a big thing, the name would have been known and Luke would have known of him as well - a @#$% load more than 'we was a freighter pilot' Even if his aunt/uncle told him Anakin wasn't his father, it was Fred Skywalker the freighter pilot, when he found out Anakin was his father, he'd have known all the stories out there if the name such a great thing.

He didn't. And yeah, we all know that's because Anakin wasn't anything special until 15 years after ROTJ. But that's why you can't just make up a bunch of stuff to predate what you've done because it won't connect worth a damn.

I like the idea of switch up who dies though. But, they f'd up this trilogy way before that part of things.

 

[Bigdaddy]

Ok. Sorry for misunderstanding your previous point. And I also completely disagree with you then.

Anakin’s birth is almost divine as stated by Lucas himself.

“An interesting character tidbit Lucas sneaked into The Phantom Menace is the possibility that Anakin's absent father is divine, an idea he got not from the New Testament but from the many further examples cited by Campbell in a chapter called "Folk Stories of Virgin Motherhood...Qui-Gon's investigation suggests that the Force itself is Anakin's father. It did the deed not in the form of invisible airborne sperm, exactly, but as something Lucas calls "mitichlorians." In other words, Darth Vader is a demigod”

Anakin is a demigod like-figure. We also know that midiclorians can be passed down through blood and thus Anakin’s progeny also possess demigod-like force potential (maybe not as much as Anakin but still powerful. This I’m unsure).

From the creator’s mouth about how strong Anakin could have been.

“Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful," he says. "But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor.”

Anakin could have been 2 times as strong as Palpatine but due to being burned and becoming more machine than man, as Vader he only reached 40% of his potential. Also thus why Palpatine disliked Vader and wanted to replace him with Luke.

Source: vanity Fair

STAR WARS: THE LAST BATTLE | Vanity Fair

Opening May 19, Star Wars: Episode III— Revenge of the Sith is set on eight different planets, with an entire army of Wookiees and what promises to be the ultimate lightsaber duel. ANNIE LEIBOVITZ shoots the movie's behind-the-scenes heroes while JIM WINDOLF gets the inside scoop from director...

archive.vanityfair.com

Saying Skywalker is just a name is akin to saying ***** ****** is just a name. I know ***** didn’t have any children contrary to what the Da Vinci code says but if he did, his son John ****** would be much more likely to be godly than John Smith and John Smith taking the ****** name doesn’t make him godly.

George's ideas about who is more powerful are interesting but they don't play out on screen, therefore they aren't part of the PT story. Since the reimagined SW universe of the ST leans so heavily into the lore of GL's reimagined PT SW, I would assume Anakin is Palpatine's biological son and the source of the Skywalker bloodline's force potential. Unfortunately this renders the Skywalker name as meaningless as the actions, sacrifices and triumphs that occurred in the OT.

Edit: When it comes to Star Wars, this is my general policy.