Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[HeartBlade]

I personally didn’t mind the lightsaber fights in PT, OT, and TFA since they told different stories imo.

OT Obi is old and Luke is young and still relatively untrained. The swings are kind of wild and the form isn’t great but I can attribute it to that. There is much more emotion and it’s not about being flashy but “raw”. It’s not amazing sword combat but it’s not supposed to be.

I agree PT is almost “too choreographed” But I chalk that up to the Jedi being trained for decades in forms that it’s by instinct. When the enemy does this, this is how you react and counter. They do the same motions their entire lives training for hours, that is how they fight. The Obi-Anakin fight in 3 stands out as a result because they both know each other so well training together and thus can predict each other (thus the lightsaber twirling which is still kind of stupid).

I thought TFA was a good fight. Finn sucked and was toyed with by Kylo. Rey also sucked and was basically running away and going in for lucky stabs as expected. The belief in the force and lucky strike is part of the journey so is acceptable.

TLJ was really disappointing though. There are instances where Rey is clearly open for an attack and the guard doesn’t strike or instances where the enemy’s weapon just disappears. Really disappointing and once pointed out, hard to ignore. Also hurts since these guards should be well trained and going in for the kill.

Rey Kylo is ok in IX but the Palpatine was again flashy. I honestly don’t know what could have been done to make this fight good though.

 

[sztriki]

TLJ was really disappointing though. There are instances where Rey is clearly open for an attack and the guard doesn’t strike or instances where the enemy’s weapon just disappears. Really disappointing and once pointed out, hard to ignore. Also hurts since these guards should be well trained and going in for the kill.

Agreed that was really cringey for me too. Also the big problem with that is it's basically a level-ending boss fight. The guards are just fodder for the duo to hack up, there's no real danger there and the fight itself is not a storytelling device other than Rey and Ren are on the same side (ubtil they're not 2 minutes later).

Rey Kylo is ok in IX but the Palpatine was again flashy. I honestly don’t know what could have been done to make this fight good though.

Not having the movie that way. Ah crap I'm starting it again...

 

[RedheadKevin]

I feel like TRoS was two great Star Wars movies smooshed into one rushed mediocre one. I envision that JJ's crew wrote a trilogy of movies, but TLJ was a speed bump in that plan, so they had to fit the rest of JJ's trilogy into the last movie, and they were now beholden to Rian Johnson's new canon. Apart from Luke's and Snoke's deaths, and the concept of a dyad in the Force, nothing that affects the overall trilogy happens in TLJ. If they had committed to one person making the ST, you could have had TFA end with Rey finding Luke's grave on Ahch-To.
Then, movie 2 starts with Kylo hearing voices that he should betray Snoke. Training with Luke's Force Ghost (and maybe other Force Ghosts,) Rey discovers that she and Kylo are connected through the Force. The Voices get Kylo to betray and kill Snoke to conform to the Sith Rule of Two, and then learn of Palpatine's survival on Exogol. There. I just put the important parts of TLJ into the first 10 minutes of the second movie, and set up the rest of the trilogy.
JJ's movie 2 would be Poe, Finn, and Rey exploring to find the Sith artifacts, and would end with Rey beating and then healing Kylo, and the Han scene. Unlike ESB that ended on a downer cliffhanger, this would end on a positive cliffhanger. Kylo Ren is dead and Ben Solo is back, and he's ready to stop Palpatine and try for a shot at redemption. The last movie would have them discovering Palpatine, the big battles, Reylo being resolved, etc.
Instead we got 2 hours of forced social commentary in the middle of the Sequel Trilogy, forcing all the plot to be squeezed into the final sprint to the finish.

There are instances where Rey is clearly open for an attack and the guard doesn’t strike or instances where the enemy’s weapon just disappears.

This is one reason Episode 1 has the best fighting in the Saga. If you watch, the moves are choreographed so that every one would be a killing blow if it wasn't blocked. This was intentional by Nick Gillard, who was creating fights for the best swordsmen in the universe, who can also see the future. The Episode 1 Special Features had a great video about this. "Prime of the Jedi" video. The rest of the Prequels had a lot of swinging at nothing, or just aiming for each other's sword. It got really bad in the Sequel Trilogy, where they fudged a lot of the fighting by digitally removing a weapon or having nonsensical strikes against the floor or something. I did like to see that Rey and Kylo got sweaty and tired, actually exerting themselves physically in their fights. Most of the other Jedi fights weren't as sweaty.

 

[cboath]

I think it's funny that blades will bump off the floor or the wall, but they cut hands right off, they cut certain objects right in half, and qui gon can shove a blade into a foot thick (or more) blast door....nice to know they make floors that are lightsaber resistant in a galaxy where only 3-4 people actually have a lightsaber..

 

[Laspector]

Wait, you're looking for logic in the Star Wars Universe? There was never none to begin with......even back when we all liked it....Don't say that there was..

 

[Psab keel]

I think you mistake logic for continuity. There are certainly continuity errors between the films, but there is an inherent story logic (or attempted one in the case of the new films) or else it would all be utter nonsense.

 

[Joek3rr]

I feel like TRoS was two great Star Wars movies smooshed into one rushed mediocre one. I envision that JJ's crew wrote a trilogy of movies, but TLJ was a speed bump in that plan, so they had to fit the rest of JJ's trilogy into the last movie, and they were now beholden to Rian Johnson's new canon. Apart from Luke's and Snoke's deaths, and the concept of a dyad in the Force, nothing that affects the overall trilogy happens in TLJ. If they had committed to one person making the ST, you could have had TFA end with Rey finding Luke's grave on Ahch-To.
Then, movie 2 starts with Kylo hearing voices that he should betray Snoke. Training with Luke's Force Ghost (and maybe other Force Ghosts,) Rey discovers that she and Kylo are connected through the Force. The Voices get Kylo to betray and kill Snoke to conform to the Sith Rule of Two, and then learn of Palpatine's survival on Exogol. There. I just put the important parts of TLJ into the first 10 minutes of the second movie, and set up the rest of the trilogy.
JJ's movie 2 would be Poe, Finn, and Rey exploring to find the Sith artifacts, and would end with Rey beating and then healing Kylo, and the Han scene. Unlike ESB that ended on a downer cliffhanger, this would end on a positive cliffhanger. Kylo Ren is dead and Ben Solo is back, and he's ready to stop Palpatine and try for a shot at redemption. The last movie would have them discovering Palpatine, the big battles, Reylo being resolved, etc.
Instead we got 2 hours of forced social commentary in the middle of the Sequel Trilogy, forcing all the plot to be squeezed into the final sprint to the finish.


This is one reason Episode 1 has the best fighting in the Saga. If you watch, the moves are choreographed so that every one would be a killing blow if it wasn't blocked. This was intentional by Nick Gillard, who was creating fights for the best swordsmen in the universe, who can also see the future. The Episode 1 Special Features had a great video about this. "Prime of the Jedi" video. The rest of the Prequels had a lot of swinging at nothing, or just aiming for each other's sword. It got really bad in the Sequel Trilogy, where they fudged a lot of the fighting by digitally removing a weapon or having nonsensical strikes against the floor or something. I did like to see that Rey and Kylo got sweaty and tired, actually exerting themselves physically in their fights. Most of the other Jedi fights weren't as sweaty.

Oh the Prequel fights are horrid.

https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthankrayt/comments/fy4j9h

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Gawd, that subreddit name makes me hurt. The salt planet was Crait. Krayt are a kind of large land reptile found, at least, on Tatooine. #fakefan

ETA: I was being facetious, but tone doesn't always translate -- especially when one is tired as hell. The above should be read in Comic Shop Guy voice.

 

[Psab keel]

 

[HeartBlade]

I actually disagree with the assessment of many of those moves as being “bad”.

Obi Wan’s “head butted” seemed to be a feint to get Maul’s attention while Qui Gon went in for the strike. Seems perfectly reasonable.

the later half where Obi-Wan and Mail are swinging wildly, this is Obi-wan drawing on his anger after Qui-Gon’s death. He is angry and so would be fighting more aggressively/recklessly, makes perfect sense. And fighters arnt perfect, sometimes their strikes suck.

Lightsaber twirling I see as a slight shielding technique and mixing up moves to confuse the opponent.

standing around like idiots. It’s implied that Palpatine is lightning fast to the point that the other 2 couldn’t react before being struck down. It’s less these Jedi are incompetent and more Palpatine is such a badass that only Windu could keep up.

The Obi was swipe against Anakin after the jump, he missed.Yes skilled fighters can sometimes miss their strikes. Shocking.

I do agree the Maul death was bs since he had the high ground but the others are mostly missed opportunities to strike (because you know, Jedi and Sith are still human), legit misses, or make perfect sense.

none of them had an enemy launch a strike, see the strike about to connect, and then move to avoid hitting Rey or have their weapons suddenly disappear and can’t hit Rey. I can only chalk this up to Rey not only having force powers but power of the author lol.

 

[sztriki]

Oh the Prequel fights are horrid.

https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthankrayt/comments/fy4j9h

This is awesome and so overdue...
BTW I had this feeling before but now seeing it side by side can confirm that the saber blades started to look like really cheap photoshop works from AOTC onwards. TPM had kind of more interesting looking or coloured ones, similar to OT, rest is just a white hard edged line with some coloured fuzz around it.

 

[Joek3rr]

I actually disagree with the assessment of many of those moves as being “bad”.

Obi Wan’s “head butted” seemed to be a feint to get Maul’s attention while Qui Gon went in for the strike. Seems perfectly reasonable.

the later half where Obi-Wan and Mail are swinging wildly, this is Obi-wan drawing on his anger after Qui-Gon’s death. He is angry and so would be fighting more aggressively/recklessly, makes perfect sense. And fighters arnt perfect, sometimes their strikes suck.

Lightsaber twirling I see as a slight shielding technique and mixing up moves to confuse the opponent.

standing around like idiots. It’s implied that Palpatine is lightning fast to the point that the other 2 couldn’t react before being struck down. It’s less these Jedi are incompetent and more Palpatine is such a badass that only Windu could keep up.

The Obi was swipe against Anakin after the jump, he missed.Yes skilled fighters can sometimes miss their strikes. Shocking.

I do agree the Maul death was bs since he had the high ground but the others are mostly missed opportunities to strike (because you know, Jedi and Sith are still human), legit misses, or make perfect sense.

none of them had an enemy launch a strike, see the strike about to connect, and then move to avoid hitting Rey or have their weapons suddenly disappear and can’t hit Rey. I can only chalk this up to Rey not only having force powers but power of the author lol.

Don't make me bring the numerous ducks that occur even though the saber is a parsec above their head.

Or the mysterious disappearing Obi-Wan in Attack of the Clones.....

 

[HeartBlade]

Disappearing Obi wan? I do think episode 2 had terrible fights though you won’t get an argument from me. Episode 2 was TLJ of the prequels imo. It was really ambitious but Lucas writes terrible dialogue and the pacing is off. The screaming twirling Yoda was a big down spot for me in 2. I know he is a warrior but the style was just off.

Honestly when it comes to fights, one of my favorites is the final one between Maul and Obi Wan in the cartoon. Given that the Jedi were based off samurai to some extent with kendo being used in OT, I would have preferred Yoda being more of an iaido-master than rabid monkey.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

The screaming twirling Yoda was a big down spot for me in 2. I know he is a warrior but the style was just off.

"Wars not make one great."

Honestly when it comes to fights, one of my favorites is the final one between Maul and Obi Wan in the cartoon. Given that the Jedi were based off samurai to some extent with kendo being used in OT, I would have preferred Yoda being more of an iaido-master than rabid monkey.

I feel like he should have been more like Musashi -- such a master he no longer carried a sword and could still beat all comers with his walking stick. My kneejerk rewrite as I left the theater with my friends was:

DOOKU: Our abilities with the Force are too evenly matched. This contest can only be decided by -- *ignites lightsaber* -- our skill with a lightsaber.

YODA: *grunts disappointedly and drops a building on him*

 

[Psab keel]

Bob Anderson's work is truly missed.

 

[HeartBlade]

"Wars not make one great."

I feel like he should have been more like Musashi -- such a master he no longer carried a sword and could still beat all comers with his walking stick. My kneejerk rewrite as I left the theater with my friends was:

DOOKU: Our abilities with the Force are too evenly matched. This contest can only be decided by -- *ignites lightsaber* -- our skill with a lightsaber.

YODA: *grunts disappointedly and drops a building on him*

yeah the twirling just seemed off. I heard fans defend it saying Yoda was a great warrior so it’s “obvious” that he can use a lightsaber and not just the force but aggressive slashing doesn’t mean power imo.

Although they are completely different, I find the sniper who can pick off targets one shot on kill to be scarier than a huge guy using spray and pray with a turret.

even if Yoda were to use a saber, maybe he made a quick wave of his hand and Dooku sees his hilt split in 2, not realizing Yoda disarmed him. Or they exchange a strike and Dooku thinks he won, cutting a little of Yoda’s cloak but his saber breaks apart.

I did think the episode 3 battle between Palpatine and Yoda was good though. Less a battle of saber skills and more a battle using the force. it did end poorly though with Yoda fleeing after falling but not critically injured or anything. I think the novel mentions he senses guards coming as backup so he decides to flee but this doesn’t seem “exile” worthy. Episode 3 wasn’t as bad and had some very good high moments but also some lows that needed to be taken to fit with the OT.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I mean, this is the TROS thread and not really the place for it, but when it goets right down to it, we shouldn't have seen Yoda at all until Empire, so his fighting style -- or not -- should be moot. *shrug*

 

[HMSwolfe]

I think I might hate this thread more than TROS at this point

 

[Prop Collector]

There are those who discuss fine cinema and those who discuss crappy movies. I think the internet has more of the latter.

 

[HanSolo2187]

I think I might hate this thread more than TROS at this point

Agreed. I have Disney+ and I have yet to watch TROS even though I could do so at any time. Pretty much where I'm at with the movie and the whole ST.