Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[HeartBlade]

Pa

Oh so because it was in the OT that's why it gets a pass.......

So let me get this straight. Palpatine uses lightning, but that's not a plot hole, even though Vader in the previous films didn't.

But Rey uses Force heal, but that's a plot hole, because other Jedi from the previous films didn't?

Yeah, that's sure seems like a big whopping double standard to me.

i think this line of thinking is wrong.

Palpatine is able to use force lightning because he is an incredibly powerful force user. He is the big bad, the master of darth vader who was initially seen as this incredibly powerful user and one who even Vader feared. Showing this incredible power that makes even Luke (a Jedi knight at this point) completely helpless and begging for help just shows how powerful he is. It also helps explain why Vader dies when throwing Palpatine off (the lightning short circuits his life support) so narratively, the power to generate lightning is necessary as opposed to fire, etc.

Honestly, force healing becomes a huge issue because it is the most sought after force power in the story.

let’s remember why Anakin, the chosen one, the one who is strongest and most gifted in the force, went to the dark side. He wanted the power to heal, to prevent the ones he loved from dying. Rey’s force healing is the OP power that Anakin sought, a power he could not learn from being a Jedi.

and Rey not only is able to use this power despite not being the one, she is able to learn this from ancient Jedi texts? The problem is first, the movies establish this isn’t a Jedi power. This is reinforced by external media, the sith focus on powers to prolong their lives and live unnaturally long life spans while Jedi accept their natural demise and become part of the living force.

yes, force healing is a thing in video games, mainly because playing a game where you don’t have healing magic and needing to rely on limited items is hard (one reason why dark souls is hard). But even in video games, you can’t use the force to revive someone from death. Rey’s force healing is too OP and creates a huge issue with the lore.

 

[Joek3rr]

I agree

Seriously though lol...

In the case of the Emperor shooting lightning while Vader and Luke apparently can't...it's alluded to that he's more powerful than either of them so him having that ability while they don't isn't inconsistent.

But the bigger issue is when a newly introduced force power complicates previous events that could have benefited from their use like why Obi-Wan didn't use the force to heal Qui-Gon or Anakin to heal Padme. They both were strong with the force and more trained than Rey and Ben so they should have been able to use it.


Yeah exactly. Cool force power right? But it ended up creating a huge inconsistency. One in which Obi-Wan could've saved Qui-Gon. That was bad writing on GL's part.

I don't mind the introduction of new force powers but you have to be very careful with the type of powers you introduce. If they make the character overpowered or create a contradiction with past events, it's best to leave those crazy force powers to video games. Otherwise you end up having to do mental gymnastics to justify them. Just like lightspeed ramming

I think the better answer. Is some have abilities that others don't. I was just thinking about this today. Luke communicates with Leia via telepathy. But in the PT, all the Jedi are using communicators and holograms.

 

[HeartBlade]

Let’s put it this way with another franchise, LotR.

let’s say there is a sequel to LotR. Aragon is the failed king of Gondor and a new female warrior has risen up to defeat the new forces of darkness. The ST ends with Sauron coming back to life, being the true leader of the new forces, and the new warrior defeating Sauron by throwing another ring of power into Mount Doom. She also uses a herbal mixture to revive one of the Nazgul.

there are 2 big issues:
1) so what prevents Sauron from coming to life again? The way female warrior killed Sauron in the ST is no different to how Frodo defeated him the first time

2) why didn’t the fellowship use this mixture before? They could have healed Boromir, taken the risk to fight the Nazgul or orc armies, etc. (you could say there are healing herbs in LotR games but that is arguably for gameplay purposes only)

 

[Joek3rr]

Pa


i think this line of thinking is wrong.

Palpatine is able to use force lightning because he is an incredibly powerful force user. He is the big bad, the master of darth vader who was initially seen as this incredibly powerful user and one who even Vader feared. Showing this incredible power that makes even Luke (a Jedi knight at this point) completely helpless and begging for help just shows how powerful he is. It also helps explain why Vader dies when throwing Palpatine off (the lightning short circuits his life support) so narratively, the power to generate lightning is necessary as opposed to fire, etc.

Honestly, force healing becomes a huge issue because it is the most sought after force power in the story.

let’s remember why Anakin, the chosen one, the one who is strongest and most gifted in the force, went to the dark side. He wanted the power to heal, to prevent the ones he loved from dying. Rey’s force healing is the OP power that Anakin sought, a power he could not learn from being a Jedi.

and Rey not only is able to use this power despite not being the one, she is able to learn this from ancient Jedi texts? The problem is first, the movies establish this isn’t a Jedi power. This is reinforced by external media, the sith focus on powers to prolong their lives and live unnaturally long life spans while Jedi accept their natural demise and become part of the living force.

yes, force healing is a thing in video games, mainly because playing a game where you don’t have healing magic and needing to rely on limited items is hard (one reason why dark souls is hard). But even in video games, you can’t use the force to revive someone from death. Rey’s force healing is too OP and creates a huge issue with the lore.

But that's the point of the whole Force healing thing though in this movie. Anakin wanted the power to save the one he loved. Ironically he had that power all along. But he's to selfish. Remember this "All I want is your love." "Love won't save you Padmé, only my new power."
But we know his love would have saved her. Ben ends up saving the one he loves, but it costs him his own.

 

[Bigdaddy]

Ain't that the truth.

Just watching Captain America The First Avenger the other day. Bullets are shown to clearly hit his shield and stop dead. But The Winter Soldier bullets ricochet off his shield.

That kind of thing doesn't bother me, (I never even noticed it) since it has no real effect on the plot. If Cap was suddenly shooting lasers out of his eyes in WS, that would be too much for me.

 

[HeartBlade]

Force

I think the better answer. Is some have abilities that others don't. I was just thinking about this today. Luke communicates with Leia via telepathy. But in the PT, all the Jedi are using communicators and holograms.

Force telepathy between Luke and Leia was to hint at their strong connection and foreshadow Leia as also being force sensitive (not sure if Lucas wanted to hint that Leia is Luke’s sister then, especially since the second kiss is then included).

in other media like the books, force telepathy is a thing between Jedi with a strong bond or destined bond. Qui Gon took Obi wan as his apprentice because they could communicate telepathically between each other. Yoda is implied to have some telepathy with the Jedi, feeling immense pain when order 66 is carried out in episode 3.

 

[HMSwolfe]

I think a big problem stems from treating the force like a superpower or magic. Let me draw a parallel to a book series that borrowed a lot of the same plot points and story structure, the Eragon books.

In the second book, Eragon goes to learn more about magic from Oromis, a mystical elf/Dragon Rider; the last of his kind, and previously thought dead. Eragon’s training specifically focuses on how the magic works, and learning certain abilities. In the climax of the series, how the magic works—as well as knowing certain abilities—are integral to defeating Galbatorix, the evil emperor.
The difference is, in ANH, Obi-Wan doesn’t teach Luke the specific power to “see the droid ball” or “hit the target”. When he goes to train with Yoda, we aren’t shown Yoda teaching him “how to access the jump really high out of a carbon freezing chamber” power. The force is meant to be a simple and uncomplicated plot device that merely represents the spiritual aspect of the Hero’s journey—it’s all in service of the good vs. evil storyline. Complicating the force for the sake of “expanding the lore” or “introducing new force powers” is totally outside of the scope of the force of where it needs to be as a storytelling device.

Furthermore, making characters that are overpowered only serves to weaken them. Why do you think Warner Bros. has had such a hard time getting audiences to connect to Superman? He’s a nearly flawless character—he can do practically anything, and he always does what’s right. That might be “cool” from an action scene perspective, or a nice superhero to have in real life, but it doesn’t make for an interesting character.

 

[HeartBlade]

But that's the point of the whole Force healing thing though in this movie. Anakin wanted the power to save the one he loved. Ironically he had that power all along. But he's to selfish. Remember this "All I want is your love." "Love won't save you Padmé, only my new power."
But we know his love would have saved her. Ben ends up saving the one he loves, but it costs him his own.

I never saw Anakin as selfish. More afraid and overconfident in his power. He thinks the Jedi can do anything (his impression of Jedi as a kid in episode 1) and as the destined Jedi, he should be able to prevent even the ones he loves from dying.

if it was selfishness, why couldn’t Obi wan do it? He certainly loved Qui Gon as a father figure and wasn’t selfish. Yoda wasn’t shown as selfish and a strong Jedi. He could have maybe gone to revive some of the Jedi that fell from order 66 instead of just go into exile.

if Anakin was also selfish, couldn’t he have healed himself when he was darth Vader to return to a human body? I know the comics say Jedi can heal their wounds and Anakin couldn’t because his light side or sadness prevented him but that’s not explained in the movies nor does Palpatine attempt to heal Vader despite wanting a powerful apprentice.

 

[Lightning]

The problem is first, the movies establish this isn’t a Jedi power. This is reinforced by external media, the sith focus on powers to prolong their lives and live unnaturally long life spans while Jedi accept their natural demise and become part of the living force.

We should make a distinction between giving up your own life force to heal another (something a Sith would never do) and taking another's lifeforce forcibly for yourself or a third party.

nor does Palpatine attempt to heal Vader despite wanting a powerful apprentice.

In hindsite, it's very likely that Palpatine was draining Padme to keep Anakin alive at the end of ROTS

 

[HeartBlade]

Furthermore, making characters that are overpowered only serves to weaken them. Why do you think Warner Bros. has had such a hard time getting audiences to connect to Superman? He’s a nearly flawless character—he can do practically anything, and he always does what’s right. That might be “cool” from an action scene perspective, or a nice superhero to have in real life, but it doesn’t make for an interesting character.

Can’t agree more. very few OP characters are done right and even OP characters like Goku from dragonball always have an enemy that completely annihilates him at the beginning, requiring training and new power to overcome.

Pure OP don’t right is maybe Saitama from one punch man whose stick is he is OP and is dissatisfied with life and society because of it (despite being the OP hero, he is not loved and actively disrespected)

Batman has tended to be more popular than Superman because Batman is still a mortal man and thus, there is tension in the possibility he can lose and needs to come up with something amazing to win. The marvel movies had done with pretty well except for Captain Marvel who is so OP, she can single-handily take out thanos’ ship and honestly beat Thanos one-on-one, to the point that the Russo brothers had to keep her occupied elsewhere so she doesn’t single handily solve endgame on her own. OP characters ruin the story and remove tension very easily.

 

[HMSwolfe]

Ultimately, the force-healing aspect of the film is incredibly pointless—it’s not like the writers were backed into a corner and had to introduce it—they simply could have changed what happens in those moments. Rey could have overpowered Kylo Ren and gotten away, leaving him to brood. At the end, it could have just been Ben who dies, without an unnecessary “let me give you my life force so I die and you live.” The writers put it in because they wanted to; not because the story needed it, not because it made sense, not because it was cool, they just wanted to.

 

[cboath]

Thats very simple, all the stuff they have added in this Disney trilogy has had tremendous ripple effects on the first six movies. Why didnt Obi Wan heal Qiu Gon? Why didnt Anakin heal his mother or Padme? Why didnt Luke heal Anakin? Why didnt Yoda and Ben reign down lightning destruction? etc etc etc. They were only added to make Rey even more powerful or to feed this reylo bulldust and dont bring up any fan fiction unknown by 98% of people who follow Star Wars movies either.

Heres the thing about Ahmed Best, he said quite unequivocally that the MEDIA were responsible for the issues he went through and it has never been reported that he received ANY death threats. KMT has never come out and actually explained why she left Instagram and I have never seen any screen grabs showing anything to indicate why. The fact you used these two overplayed, unsubstantiated examples to try and play off the reality before your eyes is frankly pathetic.

First reference i saw on that (healing) was an EU book (which I know doesn't count), but it said the healing aspect was a rare specialty as I recall. If you go with that, it's very possible they didn't have that ability.

During the PT, that book had already been written and multiple games had the ability in them as well. So, it was something GL simply didn't use. GL did add speed, for example, in the PT which was first used in games...so there's a precedent for taking stuff from non-canon resources by GL.

Padme doesn't fit because she died 'of a broken heart' well away from Anakin - after he was lava toast. He never got near her after he chocked her and was in full rage mode as well - another reason he didn't heal her, he flat out didn't want to at the time. As for Obi wan? You have to know whats wrong with someone to heal them. If she actually died of a broken heart, you can't mend that medically.

I'd also toss in - soldiers. Not all soldiers are good/adept/capable of the same thing. The army has snipers and pilots as examples. What are the odds the sniper is a good pilot? Or the pilot a good sniper? etc? Just because you can access the force doesn't mean you can do everything under the sun.

obviously, the answer is, they hadn't thought of the power yet. You could easily add powers in the PT because we never saw jedi being jedi. We also saw a grand total of what? 20? and of those we saw 7ish use powers. So almost assuredly we didn't see every power they were capable of. The taking of doppleganger to the absurd (here let me teleport you a lightsaber through this invisible wormhole) is too much. Healing? no.

 

[cboath]

But why don't we see him use it? If Palpatine can, why not Vader?

Because right now what I'm getting is. If Rey and Ben can use Force heal, why not Luke or Obi-Wan etc?

Looking at it logically, being more machine than human, if vader uses it he shorts out his suit and dies.

 

[Jagjaguwar]

Honestly I don’t have any problem with any of the Force powers we see in any of the films, on their own. Even with the expanded powers we see in the prequels (acrobat Jedi leaping around), and in the sequels (seemingly everyone deciding to project themselves across the galaxy).

I think where it becomes problematic is when it’s all taken as a whole. When you have 3 movies in the middle where force powers seem much less, well... powerful. It just makes for a bit of a jarring transition. This is also a big reason why I hated the Yoda and Sidious saber fighting styles in the PT. Would much, much rather have seen them just use sparse attacks that sent opponents staggering backwards than... a twirling old man and little green frog ping-ponging off the walls.

 

[Solo4114]

Wait, we're all in a tizzy because Rey was able to use the Force to heal wounds?

Why is this a problem? Just because it never appeared before?

 

[Joek3rr]

Looking at it logically, being more machine than human, if vader uses it he shorts out his suit and dies.

I would think he could have his suit insulated to protect against effects of the lightning?

 

[Joek3rr]

Ultimately, the force-healing aspect of the film is incredibly pointless—it’s not like the writers were backed into a corner and had to introduce it—they simply could have changed what happens in those moments. Rey could have overpowered Kylo Ren and gotten away, leaving him to brood. At the end, it could have just been Ben who dies, without an unnecessary “let me give you my life force so I die and you live.” The writers put it in because they wanted to; not because the story needed it, not because it made sense, not because it was cool, they just wanted to.

From my point of view it completes the reverse Anakin/Padmé metaphor, thingy. Ben Solo, whole thing has been trying to finish what he's grandfather started. And Ben literally did just that. Anakin fell to the Dark Side in an attempt to prevent the one he loved from dying. And Ben Solo is able to just what his grandfather couldn't. Or at least that's how I see it.

 

[Joek3rr]

We should make a distinction between giving up your own life force to heal another (something a Sith would never do) and taking another's lifeforce forcibly for yourself or a third party.



In hindsite, it's very likely that Palpatine was draining Padme to keep Anakin alive at the end of ROTS

Or perhaps Anakin in his blind rage drew on his wife's life? Palpatine does say that in Anakin's anger he seemed to have killed her, but then again he could be lying.

 

[Jaitea]

I predicted it,....this thread would be full of people trying to make sense out of nonsense

This film contradicts itself, the other 2 Disney ST movies & the Real Star Wars movies

In a few years folks will look back at this time with embarrassment,....hopefully by then we will have SW films of some quality

J

 

[Joek3rr]

I never saw Anakin as selfish. More afraid and overconfident in his power. He thinks the Jedi can do anything (his impression of Jedi as a kid in episode 1) and as the destined Jedi, he should be able to prevent even the ones he loves from dying.

if it was selfishness, why couldn’t Obi wan do it? He certainly loved Qui Gon as a father figure and wasn’t selfish. Yoda wasn’t shown as selfish and a strong Jedi. He could have maybe gone to revive some of the Jedi that fell from order 66 instead of just go into exile.

if Anakin was also selfish, couldn’t he have healed himself when he was darth Vader to return to a human body? I know the comics say Jedi can heal their wounds and Anakin couldn’t because his light side or sadness prevented him but that’s not explained in the movies nor does Palpatine attempt to heal Vader despite wanting a powerful apprentice.

It's George Lucas that said that Anakin's love for Padmé is a selfish possessive kind of love. Not a selfless love. The kind of love that says 'I'll give my life to you.' There is no greater love then this.