Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[Joek3rr]

My point is, people are still trying to make Disney and Lucasfilm look like they’ve “planned it all out” and it “all makes sense”, but they didn’t. It’s a lie. It’s been proven time and time again, by interviews with those involved and by the films themselves, that they did not have a plan. Rey wasn’t “struggling with anger and the dark side because secretly, she’s a Palpatine and we’re going to reveal that later!” She struggles with anger and the dark side because those are human struggles and common themes of Star Wars. It was in the prior films because that’s what happens in movies. The protagonist has to discover themself and has to struggle with the inner conflict, the duality of human nature. Colin Trevorrow said he stepped down because 8 derailed his plans. Rian Johnson said in response to the negative feedback about 8 and him “derailing” the narrative that there were no finished plot lines. And many others. Leaked scripts, discussion with actors. Stop trying to convince anyone that these were planned movies, that Palpatine was always behind it and that Rey was always set in stone as the character she turned out to be. Kathleen Kennedy can talk all day about how “we always wanted Palpatine back”, but just bringing up his name in a writer’s room meeting in 2014 doesn’t mean they actually considered his involvement, let alone “planned on it”. I brought up Luke because ANH doesn’t hint at Vader always having been his father. Luke isn’t angry that his aunt and uncle are killed because he’s got that “Hayden Christensen” blood in him. The filmmakers used existing open space in the previous film to open up the universe and deepen the characters. The same did not happen in the ST.

Well we do know that Rey taking the Skywalker name was established by 2014. And Jett Lucas suggesting that there was similarities to Anastasia.

 

[Kylash]

That bit about Palpatine looking like his “action figure” hurts... because so far there’s no sign they’ll ever make one.

 

[vader45]

I didn’t think he had any face damage. In fact, it looked to me like they had called Ian McDiarmid up about two months before the premiere and shot all his scenes in a day. It looked like they just slapped some dark lipstick on him and then changed his eyes and hands with VFX.

When he sucks the life out of Ren and Rey he goes back to the familiar facial look with new robes that have red underneath(Wich I absolutely LOVE)

 

[vader45]

I will say this, as much as I actually like VII & IX(Hate VIII) they will never compare to the OT. The OT feels real, it's aura gives off this feel of authenticity. Some of the elements in the OT are not exactly "Original" but it still feels authentic like they tried. ANH shows the hard work Lucas put into it and the struggles and hurdles he had to overcome. He really wanted his film made and seen by the public.

Now that Disney owns the franchise it seems like they are just whipping out movies left and right just because they have the resources. We got 5 films in 8 years when it took Lucas 28 years to make 6 with each trilogy having a 3 year hiatus between films. Now it's down to 2 with the Sequels. They don't give me that authentic aura the OT has. They feel like pale imitations of their masters. I may enjoy them for what they are but it's not the same as they just feel so fake.

 

[robstyle]

My point is, people are still trying to make Disney and Lucasfilm look like they’ve “planned it all out” and it “all makes sense”, but they didn’t. It’s a lie. It’s been proven time and time again...

There was a synopsis, about 90 pages if I recall, for the new trilogy. Thats why I said it will be great when that goes public someday. There is a tongue in cheek direct quote out there from JJ that was something along the lines of of how much he wished he was directing EP8 after he had seen the RJ script. If that EP8 didnt happen, and the synopsis was followed, coherent trilogy. But, where do you go after EP8 took all the wind out of the sails to subvert our expectations? Somehow EP9 turned into a Goonies movie with a stage play end boss fight and Used Cars "mile of cars" in space. Hard to believe, but there was a plan at one point. Maybe in ten years we will get an HBO DocuDrama about all of it.

 

[Jaitea]

I will say this, as much as I actually like VII & IX(Hate VIII) they will never compare to the OT. The OT feels real, it's aura gives off this feel of authenticity. Some of the elements in the OT are not exactly "Original" but it still feels authentic like they tried. ANH shows the hard work Lucas put into it and the struggles and hurdles he had to overcome. He really wanted his film made and seen by the public.

Now that Disney owns the franchise it seems like they are just whipping out movies left and right just because they have the resources. We got 5 films in 8 years when it took Lucas 28 years to make 6 with each trilogy having a 3 year hiatus between films. Now it's down to 2 with the Sequels. They don't give me that authentic aura the OT has. They feel like pale imitations of their masters. I may enjoy them for what they are but it's not the same as they just feel so fake.

That’s why I call Disney Star Wars ‘Disney Star Wars’ & Lucas’s Star Wars ‘Real Star Wars’
Just because Disney owns the rights to make new SW films doesn’t make the new films canon, they can say it is, because they own it, but it will never be.

If the rights for The Beatles were sold to a new company & that company started writing more Beatles tunes, or making new tunes out of samples of the old tunes,...would that be The Beatles?
The Lucas Star Wars films, were films conceived by Lucas & brought to a reality by a team of creators who moulded his vision

Disney Star Wars displays, ‘Based on characters created by George Lucas’,....because thats what it is,.....Expanded Universe written by people who don't 'get' Star Wars .....mostly....Rogue One & The Mandalorian, 'get' pretty close

It's only there to make money, not for art

J

 

[BTTUK]

My point is, people are still trying to make Disney and Lucasfilm look like they’ve “planned it all out” and it “all makes sense”, but they didn’t. It’s a lie. It’s been proven time and time again, by interviews with those involved and by the films themselves, that they did not have a plan. Rey wasn’t “struggling with anger and the dark side because secretly, she’s a Palpatine and we’re going to reveal that later!” She struggles with anger and the dark side because those are human struggles and common themes of Star Wars. It was in the prior films because that’s what happens in movies. The protagonist has to discover themself and has to struggle with the inner conflict, the duality of human nature. Colin Trevorrow said he stepped down because 8 derailed his plans. Rian Johnson said in response to the negative feedback about 8 and him “derailing” the narrative that there were no finished plot lines. And many others. Leaked scripts, discussion with actors. Stop trying to convince anyone that these were planned movies, that Palpatine was always behind it and that Rey was always set in stone as the character she turned out to be. Kathleen Kennedy can talk all day about how “we always wanted Palpatine back”, but just bringing up his name in a writer’s room meeting in 2014 doesn’t mean they actually considered his involvement, let alone “planned on it”. I brought up Luke because ANH doesn’t hint at Vader always having been his father. Luke isn’t angry that his aunt and uncle are killed because he’s got that “Hayden Christensen” blood in him. The filmmakers used existing open space in the previous film to open up the universe and deepen the characters. The same did not happen in the ST.

I don't disagree with you at all, and never in my comment did I say it makes sense of their desperation to seem to try and force a plan into existence, that was so obviously not there. I feel them trying to do so is far worse than just openly saying "we got a new toy, and played with it to death, and simply mis-used it" a.k.a. Got it wrong more often than not. I'd personally respect that admission far more.

I simply wanted to point out that in my opinion, what they are trying to explain away with Rey, isn't connected to Luke's actions, and that they aren't trying to make a catch all template that applies to Luke in your example.

I'm more than willing to criticise this attempt at trying to change Rey's story to fit what they want to say they had "planned", however if something makes sense to me (whether I agree or not with it), i'm happy to say so and put forward my thoughts on it too. Which in this instance was that they are at least treating Rey like a different person with different motivations as a force user, rather than, in my opinion, the very bland similar way the Jedi in the PT were handled. I don't think they've done it well, but I like the attempt. It also highlights how they mis-understood Luke too, and seemingly acknowledge that without realising it.

 

[sztriki]

I don't think anyone involved was that sophisticated or knew the existing story well enough to pull that off.

To flip it a bit. If someone was trying to prod into your mind, you'd be angry too. It's not a weakness it's human (and for that matter probably universal) nature. Again, in the forest, you witness that guy kill Han and then slit your buddy through the spine and you're going to be exceeding mad. Once again, human nature, not character flaw or weakness. Maybe a full fledged jedi can kill their emotions in those scenarios (though i'm not entirely sure), but a someone off a backwater planet with zero training? Um, no.

Both instances are fight or flight instinct. Being a prisoner and having your head invaded, you do what you can to fight back and get out. In the course of fighting back, you find yourself in the other guys head, NO ONE says 'oops' this is bad i gotta leave. They say, what can i see here to help me get out of this. Forest is the same. You have a guy you know is a killer after you, you do what you gotta do to get out alive.

You could really spin things and say the 'let me go', 'drop your gun', and even 'these aren't the droids your looking for' and 'he can go about his business' are dark side commands as well as you're forcing someone to do something they don't want to do.

Saved me a lot of typing there, thanks. Following this logic then Obi-Wan is darkside-y cuz he got pissed when Maul impaled Ginny and he was yelling angrily in Anakin's face in AOTC. The thing where I can agree with the aforementioned things is that this (being naturally angry and scared in those situations while also recognizing that she has incredible powers) COULD HAVE been developed into something interesting and different over the trilogy but alas...

Another thing that popped in mind, was the Forceskype not done by Snoke? Who promptly got bisected so how exactly were they having an actual lightsaber fight through the Force? Palpie v2.0 was broadcasting all the way from Exegol? Then what was the point of Snoke in the first place if he has such a huge range?

 

[HMSwolfe]

Another thing that popped in mind, was the Forceskype not done by Snoke? Who promptly got bisected so how exactly were they having an actual lightsaber fight through the Force? Palpie v2.0 was broadcasting all the way from Exegol? Then what was the point of Snoke in the first place if he has such a huge range?

More revisionism, I’m afraid. I’m sure someone will chime in about how they’re a “diode” and how that was always planned and Snoke was lying about the Forceskyping. Or, if it was Snoke, and he “activated their diode-ness”, it brings another question. If Palpatine had the resources to construct and upkeep a fleet of a thousand Star Destroyers with Death Star tech, as well as the ability to clone powerful dark side users like Snoke, why didn’t he just have an army of Snokes? He could have just wiped out any opposition with even fifty or so Snokes. Heck, it even seems strange he’d rely on technology rather than the Force, considering Vader didn’t put too much stock in the first Death Star compared to the power of the Force. In fact, why need Rey at all? Just make a clone or whatever like Snoke, with all the powers, but no memory or whatever, and then make that clone kill him so he could possess them. I’m sure someone will say, “but that’s what he did, because the official novelization of the film says that Rey’s father was a clone, not a son,” but that doesn’t count because that is also more stuff made up after the fact to cover up sloppy writing in an excuse just to get Palpatine into the story. Why does “failed clone” in some instances translate to “Palpatine’s body is breaking up because it can’t handle his evil” and in others it means “it’s a dude who looks nothing like him who turned out to be a regular guy with no power who wanted to be good”?

 

[HeartBlade]

if you guys were in KK’s position and tasked to direct the new trilogy, how would you go about doing it?

Personally, I would keep the Lucas treatments and have some prominent Star Wars authors (since they are likely fans) and some actors work shop ideas to create an exciting trilogy. Mark Hamil seems to have a good grasp on Luke and Fischer was a script doctor as well as Leia so her insights would be invaluable. Also actively have Lucas in the mix as an advisor, working with his ideas for 2 reasons:

1) he will feel appreciated and support the movies which is always a plus
2) worst case if it goes bad, you can say original director made them as well

once the story for all 3 is done, select one director or a group of directors and stick to the story. They can add their own artistic design through the visuals, dialogue, actors, etc but the story must remain intact.

 

[sztriki]

if you guys were in KK’s position and tasked to direct the new trilogy, how would you go about doing it?

Personally, I would keep the Lucas treatments and have some prominent Star Wars authors (since they are likely fans) and some actors work shop ideas to create an exciting trilogy. Mark Hamil seems to have a good grasp on Luke and Fischer was a script doctor as well as Leia so her insights would be invaluable. Also actively have Lucas in the mix as an advisor, working with his ideas for 2 reasons:

1) he will feel appreciated and support the movies which is always a plus
2) worst case if it goes bad, you can say original director made them as well

once the story for all 3 is done, select one director or a group of directors and stick to the story. They can add their own artistic design through the visuals, dialogue, actors, etc but the story must remain intact.

Other than keeping Lucas that close (which is something he apparently did not want, although that prob came after they told him to jog on) agree with all of the above. Considering George has been writing the book of "What could have been great" with the OT re-releases, prequels and Indy 4 I would not put that much stock in his ideas anymore.

 

[Joek3rr]

if you guys were in KK’s position and tasked to direct the new trilogy, how would you go about doing it?

Personally, I would keep the Lucas treatments and have some prominent Star Wars authors (since they are likely fans) and some actors work shop ideas to create an exciting trilogy. Mark Hamil seems to have a good grasp on Luke and Fischer was a script doctor as well as Leia so her insights would be invaluable. Also actively have Lucas in the mix as an advisor, working with his ideas for 2 reasons:

1) he will feel appreciated and support the movies which is always a plus
2) worst case if it goes bad, you can say original director made them as well

once the story for all 3 is done, select one director or a group of directors and stick to the story. They can add their own artistic design through the visuals, dialogue, actors, etc but the story must remain intact.

I had a similar idea. They would have been doing somthing different for sure. As I'm not sure there's ever been a film series that has planned out to that level.

But I have to admit Kathy's idea of bringing 3 different filmmakers that are Star Wars fans first, to give their own take on Star Wars, is also interesting. Kinda a love story of sorts from 3 different people. That's what was the plan. JJ, Rian, Trevorrow. But then Carrie's death threw a huge monkey wrench in things.

 

[DARTH ANIBAL]

Most importantly, when the two battle in the snow, its right there in everyones face when the red and blue glow from the lightsabers alternates. Her anger takes over in battle and something "unseen" is driving her. Again one of the let downs of EP8 is not utilizing the cues and visuals set forth in TFA.

As much as I enjoyed the ST, I've always said that the lack of a pre-planned, cohesive story can't be more obvious. THAT is the true, tragic flaw of these last 3 films. That said, I fully agree with robstyle and believe that the one thing that was likely tying this whole thing together was an attempt at what could have been an amazing story of exploration into someone who wasn't just tempted, but constantly walking a razor's edge between light and dark as soon as she became conscious of the Force. That fight with Kylo Ren saw him dropping the Dark Side and going on the defensive, and Rey totally PICKED. THAT. SH!T. UP.* At least, to this viewer, the aggression of her renewed attack and the look on her face was much more than just anger. No, I don't believe they knew exactly where it was all going, but I truly think the intention was to head down a path of her learning to strike some kind of "balance" between light and dark.

*Paraphrased from Movies With Mikey

 

[Joek3rr]

As much as I enjoyed the ST, I've always said that the lack of a pre-planned, cohesive story can't be more obvious. THAT is the true flaw of these last 3 films. That said, I fully agree with robstyle and believe that the one thing that was likely tying this whole thing together was an attempt at what could have been an amazing story of exploration into someone who wasn't just tempted, but constantly walking a razor's edge between light and dark as soon as she became conscious of the Force. That fight with Kylo Ren saw him dropping the Dark Side and going on the defensive, and Rey totally PICKED. THAT. SH!T. UP.* At least, to this viewer, the aggression of her renewed attack and the look on her face was much more than just anger. No, I don't believe they knew exactly where it was all going, but I truly think the intention was to head down a path of her learning to strike some kind of "balance" between light and dark.

*Paraphrased from Movies With Mikey

Just wanted to say that Movies With Mikey is awesome!!!

 

[cboath]

I don't think that is the point they're trying to make with Rey. More that it wasn't the fact she felt angry, but that unlike Luke, Rey kept allowing that anger to dictate her actions. Whereas in your example Luke would be justified in his anger, but only really once in the OT did he let it lead to an action.

Did she ever have anyone to tell her not to? Luke had Ben and Yoda to guide him - and do so for a good while before he had to actually do anything really. Rey, OTOH, spend a few hours with luke. I haven't seen TLJ since theaters, but I recall most of those chats being about he quit using the force, not that 'you should never use anger to do anything'. Even if he said it, she'd be using the force a few days at that point (if that) and spend a few hours there. How much credence is she going to give it? As for the books, we know there are books. We don't know what's in them.

If you recall, the prequels had the little kids brought to the temple where they could be raised and basically want for nothing. Makes it real easy to get anger and emotion out of you. Rey grew up knowing she was basically abandoned and had to scavenge for everything she ever got. That's not someone primed to leave anger out of the equation. I see it as a function of circumstance, not that she's hardwired to do it. I mean, you can say similar things about luke. Didn't grow up in the best of circumstances, was told his father was murdered and apparently nothing about his mother. Living in what looked like less than ideal circumstances in the middle of nowhere and all he wanted was to GTFO. We see him, also, give into his feelings from time to time. It's a plotline in the OT frankly. In the end he overcomes it. You can make that argument for Rey as well. So it seems it's moreso redoing what came before as a opposed to a creative direction they started from day one.

 

[cboath]

I will say this, as much as I actually like VII & IX(Hate VIII) they will never compare to the OT. The OT feels real, it's aura gives off this feel of authenticity. Some of the elements in the OT are not exactly "Original" but it still feels authentic like they tried. ANH shows the hard work Lucas put into it and the struggles and hurdles he had to overcome. He really wanted his film made and seen by the public.

Now that Disney owns the franchise it seems like they are just whipping out movies left and right just because they have the resources. We got 5 films in 8 years when it took Lucas 28 years to make 6 with each trilogy having a 3 year hiatus between films. Now it's down to 2 with the Sequels. They don't give me that authentic aura the OT has. They feel like pale imitations of their masters. I may enjoy them for what they are but it's not the same as they just feel so fake.

That timeline isn't very relevant (not sure that's the right word, accurate?). For one, you NEEDED three years in the 70's and 80's to get those effects and what not done. You simply did. You don't today. Even in the 90's, they needed the time for effects as they were again inventing all new things and pushing boundaries no one else had done. Plus, you know, he took off for 12 years (83-95) from working on SW. That and he ran it all. Two groups largely did the ST (JJ and RJ) and another crew did RO, and another did Solo. If one guy ran all 5 flicks, yeah, it would have taken longer.

Today, i don't think you need more than 2 years to put one of these together. Technology makes it faster. People do this from HOME now (even before lock downs). Put together a planned out, cohesive story, the rest falls into place. They failed on the story which made the whole thing fail in large part. I mean look at pixar, they barely move beyond sketches until the story is worked out and complete. I'm sure the same thing would apply, too, if they were going to do a trilogy (cars and TS don't count as they weren't conceived as trilogies). The point being, the story is the most important part. They seemed to not understand that concept.

 

[BTTUK]

Did she ever have anyone to tell her not to? Luke had Ben and Yoda to guide him - and do so for a good while before he had to actually do anything really. Rey, OTOH, spend a few hours with luke. I haven't seen TLJ since theaters, but I recall most of those chats being about he quit using the force, not that 'you should never use anger to do anything'. Even if he said it, she'd be using the force a few days at that point (if that) and spend a few hours there. How much credence is she going to give it? As for the books, we know there are books. We don't know what's in them.

If you recall, the prequels had the little kids brought to the temple where they could be raised and basically want for nothing. Makes it real easy to get anger and emotion out of you. Rey grew up knowing she was basically abandoned and had to scavenge for everything she ever got. That's not someone primed to leave anger out of the equation. I see it as a function of circumstance, not that she's hardwired to do it. I mean, you can say similar things about luke. Didn't grow up in the best of circumstances, was told his father was murdered and apparently nothing about his mother. Living in what looked like less than ideal circumstances in the middle of nowhere and all he wanted was to GTFO. We see him, also, give into his feelings from time to time. It's a plotline in the OT frankly. In the end he overcomes it. You can make that argument for Rey as well. So it seems it's moreso redoing what came before as a opposed to a creative direction they started from day one.

I wasn't commenting on whether they were going over the same ground as before, nor making any specific arguments as the whys and wherefores of a character.

With the comment you quoted, I was putting forward my thought that, Rey's anger was something different to the example someone else put forward comparing it to Luke, and not completely comparable beyond being a use of an old idea, and them trying to present it in a different way to try and look like they had some actual plan.

 

[Joek3rr]

I don't remember where I heard this, but doesn't the TFA novelization mention somthing about Rey hearing a voice in her head telling her to kill Kylo?

 

[modelcitizen]

it would explain the lightsaber through his thorax i reckon....

 

[BTTUK]

I don't remember where I heard this, but doesn't the TFA novelization mention somthing about Rey hearing a voice in her head telling her to kill Kylo?

I'll have to download it again and have a look


Turns out you're memory serves you well